Double A Semi-Final Playoffs: 1 Johns Hopkins Blue Jays vs. 4 New England Whalers

Hedberg

MLD Glue Guy
Jan 9, 2005
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The 2010 Double-A Draft Semi-Final Playoff Series


Johns Hopkins Blue Jays

coaches Bob Hartley, Tom Watt

Martin Rucinsky - Viktor Yakushev - Sergei Svetlov
Aaron Broten (A) - Don Gallinger - Wayne Connelly
John Marks - Billy Breen (A) - Tom Webster
Stephane Matteau - Rudy Migay - Mark Hunter
Don Metz

Al MacNeil (C) - Dmitri Mironov
Ron Plumb - Walter Buswell
Alex Levinsky - Bingo Kampman
Toni Lydman

Ernie Wakely
Don Simmons


vs.


New England Whalers

coaches Dave Tippett, Paul Maurice

Shawn McEachern (A) - Jeff Carter - Joe Murphy
Lowell MacDonald - Robert Lang - Erik Cole
Jeff Friesen - Mikko Koivu (C) - Justin Williams
Dave Hunter - Curtis Brown - Radek Dvorak
Tom Fitzgerald

Jeff Norton - Sean Hill
Kyle McLaren - Tom Edur
Barret Jackman (A) - Patrice Brisebois
Boris Mironov

Roman Cechmanek
Ken Wregget

 
Last edited by a moderator:

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Now that it's the playoffs, I'd like to ask again, when was Ernie Wakely ever a top-10 goalie? We're not so far down in the draft that guys like him deserve to be drafted. Can he cost his first-seeded team the series? We'll see how the arguments go.
 

VanIslander

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Sep 4, 2004
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Ernie Wakely is one of 6 goaltenders inducted into the WHA Hall of Fame. That may mean squat to seventieslord, but it means something to me. It means he was considered one of the best of the league by his peers and reflective hockey historians, judged worthy of all-time remembrance.

Here were the voters who inducted him:

WHA Hall of Fame Voters

The WHA Advisory Board:
Timothy Gassen (President & Founder, WHA HOF)
Jacques Demers (WHA coach)
Anders Hedberg (WHA All-Star)
Pat Stapleton (WHA All-Star, coach, GM & Chicago Cougars co-owner)
Jack Stanfield (WHA Player & Houston Aeros VP)
Bob Lamey (Broadcasting Hall of Fame, WHA broadcaster)
Jeff Marek (Hockey Night in Canada, CBC)
Brian Costello (The Hockey News senior editor)
Scott Surgent (WHA historian & author)
Curtis Walker (WHA historian & author)
Mark Willand (WHA historian & filmmaker)

Other invited voters:
Bruce Boggess (historian)
Jim Boyd (WHA player)
Les Brandt (historian)
Michael Campbell (historian)
Tod Denault (hockey author)
Jim Dorey ( WHA player)
Barry Dunlop (historian)
Jim Farmer (historian)
Mike Fornes (WHA broadcaster)
Tom Frost (historian)
Roger Godin (historian)
Randy Greb (historian)
Nick Harbaruk (WHA player)
Stephane Harvey (historian)
Paul Hoganson (WHA player)
Morey Holzman (historian)
Jason Kasiorak (historian)
Blaise Lamphier (historian)
Don Larway (WHA player)
Paul Ledoux (historian)
Andy MacWilliams (WHA broadcaster)
Al McLeod (WHA player)
Lyle Moffat (WHA player)
Ulf Nilsson (WHA player)
Paul Patskou (historian)
Craig Roberts (WHA broadcaster)
Larry Sekuler (historian)
Rick Smith (WHA player)
Billy Steele (WHA player)
Jerry Trupiano (WHA broadcaster)
Rick Smith (WHA player)
http://www.whahof.com/hofmembers2.html

They inducted these goalies: Richard Brodeur, Joe Daley, Al Smith, Ernie Wakely, Gerry Cheevers, Ron Grahame. Should they have inducted the other five but not Wakely? I did not draft him in the MLD or the AAA but felt him worthy of the Double-A Draft level competition. Is he at all comparable in skill level or performances to the up-and-down play 4-year NHL career Chechmanek? seventieslord implies that the choice of Wakely not only is one of losing an edge in goaltending match-up but that it is significant enough to potentially cost this playoff series. You guys decide.

The Blue Jays select goaltender Ernie Wakely, who as a 30 year old backstopped the St. Louis Blues in the 1970 Stanley Cup Finals, starred in the 1971 NHL all-star game and lost only 14 games in 51 starts in 1970-71, jumping thereafter to the more financially lucrative WHA where he went on to become the WHA's career leader in shutouts and games played, and 3rd all time in wins. He was the only goaltender not yet drafted this year who is a member of the WHA Hall of Fame.

d_6570.jpg


Memorial Cup champion, 1958–59
Winner, Terry Sawchuk Trophy, 1963-64.
Named to Central Professional Hockey League All-Star Second Team, 1967-68.
Named to American Hockey League All-Star Second Team, 1968-69.
Played in National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1971.
Named to World Hockey Association All-Star Second Team, 1977-78.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Oh, now I see the problem here. It's that you think WHA HOF inclusion automatically makes you great. It's not that he's in, or who voted him in, that matters. It's the inclusiveness of it. This is a league that operated for seven seasons, and they have six HOF goaltenders. If The NHL sent 6 goalies to the hall for every 7 seasons, they would have 81 HOF goaltenders. This would, based on the ATD/MLD/AAA drafting this season, take us to the Puppa/Palmateer/Lemelin/Potvin/Meloche tier. So you could say that in a roundabout way, the 6th-best WHA goalie is about as good all-time as the 80th-best NHL goalie. But that's only a true parallel comparison if the WHA was equal to the NHL, and everyone knows it wasn't (how much less of a league it was, is a continuing discussion) - among the top-1000 picks, how many more NHL players per season were chosen compared to WHA players per season? I'm estimating it's about 6 WHA players per season versus about 10 per season for the NHL. Assuming that our player evaluations developed over the years through all-time drafts is fairly accurate, and assuming that the differences in each league from one player on the pecking order to the next is similar, the best figure I can come up with is that the 6th-best goalie in WHA history is like the (81 * 10/6) 135th-best goalie in NHL history (based on the sheer length of time the leagues operated and the difference in quality) - This would put him in a tier of goalies we've never drafted deep enough to select. Intuitively, and based on the guy's actual achievements, that seems about accurate. TDMM can correct me if he likes, since these types of conundrums seem to interest him.

Now if all those figures made your eyes glaze over, I'll go back to my original question. When was Ernie Wakely ever a top-10 goalie in the world? I'm looking at all the AAA/AA goalies, and the ones I'm naming in the undrafted thread, and they can all claim to have been a top-10 goalie in at least a couple of seasons. (Melanson and Al Smith are debatable). It just seems like you want to see Wakely ride this WHA HOF nomination to a premature selection and I say, not on my watch.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,130
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Regina, SK
:noway: You constantly misrepresent positions so they are easier to attack. I stand by what I said all along, NO MORE, no less.

but that seems to be what you want to default to. He made the WHA HOF so that's reason enough to draft him. I say, let's look at his goaltending achievements. I know, what a concept. This isn't Paddy Moran here, where we have no meaningful numbers and very little quotes and extremely sparse awards to judge him and have to default to his hall nomination to accept his greatness - this is a goalie who's been retired just 32 years.

If you think I argue maliciously or unfairly let's talk about it via PM, but be prepared to provide examples and not just speak in general terms. As it pertains to Wakely - please don't get all cranky just because you're being challenged. We should all challenge eachother, and if our opinions withstand the challenges, then we're on the right track. And if they don't - maybe we should rethink them.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Are there any forwards or defensemen in the WHA HOF who were not drafted?

A one time 2nd team all-star from the WHA is not very impressive, as there are NHLer goaltenders with a single 2nd team who were not selected.

Wakely doesn't appear to have much playoff success in the WHA either, for what that's worth.

If I was voting (and I'm happily free from it :p:), I would want to know why Wakely is in the WHA HOF. I honestly have no idea what being one of the 6 best goalies in WHA history means (or if he really was one of the 6 best). 70s math seems reasonable in the absence of more information, but I'm sure there is more information out there.

Edit: Just re-read VI's profile again, and it definitely seems like Wakely was inducted because of his career accomplishments (games played, shutouts, wins) in the WHA. I don't really know what to make of them, but I don't really know what to make of the accomplishments of most players at this level, which is again, why I'm happy I'm free from voting at this level.

Just looking at his hockey-reference and legends of hockey profiles, I'm kind of impressed by Wakely leading the NHL in GAA in 1969-70 - granted it was while playing only 30 games in the division full of expansion teams, but worth noting on his resume.

I'm definitely more impressed that he was selected to play in the 1971 NHL All-Star game than his single 2nd Team nod in the WHA.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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By the logic of the position, at least one person thinks the Blue Jays backup will have to be called upon early in the series against the 4-year NHL career (playoff-inexperienced and little international tourney play) Cechmanek:

...goaltender Don Simmons, who was the starter in net when the Bruins made two consecutive Stanley Cup Finals runs in 1957 and 1958. He also came off the bench in Toronto to win a couple of games in the Leafs 1962 championship, so he played in the 1963 NHL all-star game (he was a 1st/2nd team all-star at three other levels of pro hockey). "Dippy" only was a starter in two NHL regular seasons but saw lots of action as the backup (to Lumley in Boston, Bower in Toronto), losing only 101 games of 249 NHL starts over 11 seasons, seven times top-6 in NHL shutouts, four times top-6 in wins.

DonSimmornsBruins17.jpg


Goalie Don Simmons made nearly 250 appearances for three different NHL clubs in the 50s and 60s. He was also known as a durable competitor in the minors during a pro career that lasted nearly 20 years.

Born in Port Colborne, Ontario, Simmons played junior with the Galt Rockets and St. Catharines Teepees. In 1951-52 he won 18 games as a rookie pro with the EHL's Springfield Indians and led the league with 31 wins for the club the next season. Both years he was named to the EHL second all-star team.

In 1956-57 he replaced Terry Sawchuk in the Boston Bruins' goal part way through the season and helped the club reach the Stanley Cup finals. He helped the team return to the finals the next season and won a personal high 24 games in 1958-59.

Simmons was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs for Ed Chadwick in 1961 and he was a solid back up to Johnny Bower. In 1962 he won a couple of games in the playoffs while helping the club win the Stanley Cup. By the mid-60s, Simmons found himself in the minors but he responded with 35 wins for the CHL's Tulsa Oilers in 1964-65. He eventually joined the New York Rangers via the Intra-League Draft and led the WHL in wins with the Vancouver Canucks in 1966-67. Simmons played a few games on Manhattan as an injury replacement before retiring in 1969.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=18695
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=839376
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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By the logic of the position, at least one person thinks the Blue Jays backup will have to be called upon early in the series against the 4-year NHL career (playoff-inexperienced and little international tourney play) Cechmanek:
Simmons has a grand total of 24 games of playoff experience, Wakely has 41 (31 of those in WHA). Neither has any international experience whatsoever.

Cechmanek has 23 playoff games in NHL, and 32 in significant international games (WC and WJC) - and he won five medals (three golds) there. He also has five consecutive championships in Czech league as #1, being voted best goalie in the league every friggin' season of those, and nabbing a playoff MVP on the side.

Then there's Wregget who not only has 56 NHL playoff games (more than both your goalies combined), but a history of greatly elevating his play come playoff time and posting dominant playoff performances.

Bolding quotes about your backup that he was durable isn't gonna magically make the huge chasm between the teams in goal disappear.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Well you're making good points, but one thing about simmons is that he played when just six jobs were available, and was excellent in two playoffs. Wregget came up with big performances, but if 6 jobs were available, he would not have been an NHL goalie. What I'm saying is that comparing their playoff GP totals isn't fair.
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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I brought up the GPs because VI made the claim of " 4-year NHL career (playoff-inexperienced and little international tourney play) Cechmanek", which is ********.

Anyway, Simmons is good backup. But Wakely is the worst starting goalie in AA. I'd rank the goalies thus:

Cechmanek
Wregget
Simmons
Wakely

A question I have about Simmons - in 1958-59, he started 58 games for the Bruins (one of two seasons he was the #1 on his team), and he played 11 playoff games the previous season (the other one when he was #1), yet come playoff time, his backup Harry Lumley (in his career's twilight) got the nod to start all the playoff games. Was Simmons injured, or was his regular season so bad that the coach decided to go with the backup on the brink of retirement that played only 11 games that season (and sat on the bench when Simmons played well in the playoffs the previous year)?
 

VanIslander

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Sep 4, 2004
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I consider the Czech league a clear step down from the WHA, and didn't consider at all world juniors.

With Wregget in net for the playoffs, your team has an EDGE in goaltending. The difference between bluelines is huge however.

And stop the swearing. We haven't had that on THIS board, have been more civil than most. Let's keep it that way.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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- I don't know the details on why simmons didn't play in the playoffs that year. Maybe The Trail says something.

- even after talent pool size is considered, simmons has to be better than Wregget.

- yes, the 1990s czech league is not the wha. However, we aren't talking about two goalies whose levels of dominance in those leagues were the same. Wakely was good in the wha. Cechmanek was DOMINANT in the czech league, enough to give him a good edge IMO. And he did more in the nhl too.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Simmons was DOMINANT in three other leagues, 1st and 2nd team all-star selections.

And Simmons' NHL success is not inferior to Cechmanek's, superior even if judging play against the best, in the NHL playoffs.

Anyways, those who see edges here: better look at forward cores and bluelines too. Neither team can rely on goaltending to win or lose a series here unless the skaters are comparable.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
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And stop the swearing. We haven't had that on THIS board, have been more civil than most. Let's keep it that way.
What swearing? Geez.

And Simmons' NHL success is not inferior to Cechmanek's, superior even if judging play against the best, in the NHL playoffs.
Simmons won one more series. He has playoff edge on Cechmanek, but Wregget has edge on Simmons.

And please do explain the huge difference between the bluelines. I see that you have the (slightly worse) brother of my #7 at your top pairing, for starters.
 

VanIslander

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I see that you have the (slightly worse) brother of my #7 at your top pairing
I assessed both Mironov brothers pre-draft and it confirmed what was known for a long time: Dmitri had a better career and performances than brother Boris. I put Boris on the at-best 7th dman list, at the position you took him.

We should definitely discuss this after the holiday. Right now I'm more into the Smirnoff. Cheers!
 

MadArcand

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Heh, I always forget that you have Christmas more on 25th overseas (we have the relevant part on 24th). So enjoy ;)

Dmitri has got fewer icetime:
D's icetimes: 25, 24, 24, 20, 20, 20, 19, 18, 17, 14
B's icetimes: 26, 26, 25, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 20, 20, 18

Dmitri has a wee bit better adjusted +/- (+47 vs. +11).

Their PP/PK utilization and PPG are basically same.

All in all very similar, yet I'd take the one on whom coaches relied more.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,130
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Regina, SK
A couple ramblings between early and late festivities...

Simmons was DOMINANT in three other leagues, 1st and 2nd team all-star selections.

And Simmons' NHL success is not inferior to Cechmanek's, superior even if judging play against the best, in the NHL playoffs.

Anyways, those who see edges here: better look at forward cores and bluelines too. Neither team can rely on goaltending to win or lose a series here unless the skaters are comparable.

I don't take the use of the word "dominant" in capitals lightly. We're talking about five first team all-stars, five league championships and a playoff MVP. Simmons' minor league dominance (which I definitely do value considering it came during the O6 era - but more the WHL 1st team and AHL 2nd team, as the EAHL was a scrub league) was much closer to the degree of Wakely's WHA dominance (one 2nd team) than Cechmanek's Czech league dominance. Cechmanek was like Dryden over there.

Anyway, it should surprise no one that Cechmanek and Simmons are my favourites in this series, in no order.

I assessed both Mironov brothers pre-draft and it confirmed what was known for a long time: Dmitri had a better career and performances than brother Boris. I put Boris on the at-best 7th dman list, at the position you took him.

I've been around long enough to see both their careers too, and I am not so sure about that. Boris was good enough to make the THN preseason top-20 a couple of times. Dmitri was never really at that level.

The scouting reports on both players was very similar: hulking size, on-and-off use of their size (Boris did it much more frequently though), very good puck skills, particularly on the PP, prone to bad decisions occasionally, and far from polished defensively, but adquate to survive a long time (although Boris rose above this for a while).

Statistics point to Boris being better:

- He averaged 22.32 minutes a game in his career, compared to Dmitri's 21.00
- They were remarkably similar offensively, with Dmitri averaging 0.29 and 0.24 at ES and on the PP, respectively, and Boris with 0.26 and 0.25.
- They were used a remarkably similar amount of time overall on special teams: Boris45% on the PP, 29% on the PK for a total of 74%, Dmitri 54% and 25% for a total of 79%. Dmitri getting more special teams time but less overall time highlights that he was a bit more of a specialist player. Boris also played more on the PK and less on the PP, indicating better balance in his skill set.
- Given that Boris' icetime and PPG averages were attained over more games, which is harder to do (716 to 556), you have to give him credit in the offense department and major credit in the icetime department.
- for icetime reasons, Boris' adjusted +11 and Dmitri's adjusted +47 tell us nothing, because Boris played harder minutes.

Here's what was said in 2000 about them:

Boris: Has improved his defensive play to the stage where he belongs as part of a team's top defense against other teams' top lines... he uses his size well to protect the puck... isn't a thumper, but he's strong and he eliminates people...

Dmitri: likes to get involved in the attack... probably too much involved... can be a bit of a risk factor in his own zone. Can be beaten one on one and it helps to play with a defensive defenseman. He has to learn to play as hard in his own zone as he likes to do in the attacking zone... has a long reach and is big, but plays soft and doesn't use either attribute to his best advantage. He gives up easily on plays in his own end. He likes to step up and challenge in the neutral zone but doesn't take the body well; he often lets the opponent get by him... a lot of skill, but a questionable work ethic... his offensive contributions don't always compensate for his defensive shortcomings...

However: There is one thing that makes a major difference and tips the scales in Dmitri's favour, possibly all the way in his favour if you value it highly enough - his teams were succesful. He played 75 playoff games to Boris' 25. This is important for two reasons: contributing to good teams is a plus on your resume, obviously. The other is that his lower icetime can be explained by being on better teams with deeper defense corps.

I'll let you two hash this one out. I lean towards Boris, but I did really like Dmitri in Toronto. Both have their place. But Dmitri being picked as a first pairing guy 100 picks before Boris, who's a #7, seems off to me. I'd prefer the inverse of that, personally, though something in the middle seems most appropriate. A team with Boris as their #7 (assuming he's actually their 7th-best D-man) has to be doing a lot better than a team with Dmitri as a top pairing guy (assuming he's actually one of their top-2 D-men)

This would be an excellent HOH poll. (So would Todd Gill vs. Hal Gill)
 

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