Double A Semi-Final Playoffs: 1 Johns Hopkins Blue Jays vs. 4 New England Whalers

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by Hedberg, Dec 22, 2010.

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  1. Hedberg

    Hedberg MLD Glue Guy

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    The 2010 Double-A Draft Semi-Final Playoff Series


    Johns Hopkins Blue Jays

    coaches Bob Hartley, Tom Watt

    Martin Rucinsky - Viktor Yakushev - Sergei Svetlov
    Aaron Broten (A) - Don Gallinger - Wayne Connelly
    John Marks - Billy Breen (A) - Tom Webster
    Stephane Matteau - Rudy Migay - Mark Hunter
    Don Metz

    Al MacNeil (C) - Dmitri Mironov
    Ron Plumb - Walter Buswell
    Alex Levinsky - Bingo Kampman
    Toni Lydman

    Ernie Wakely
    Don Simmons


    vs.


    New England Whalers

    coaches Dave Tippett, Paul Maurice

    Shawn McEachern (A) - Jeff Carter - Joe Murphy
    Lowell MacDonald - Robert Lang - Erik Cole
    Jeff Friesen - Mikko Koivu (C) - Justin Williams
    Dave Hunter - Curtis Brown - Radek Dvorak
    Tom Fitzgerald

    Jeff Norton - Sean Hill
    Kyle McLaren - Tom Edur
    Barret Jackman (A) - Patrice Brisebois
    Boris Mironov

    Roman Cechmanek
    Ken Wregget

     
    Last edited by moderator VanIslander: Dec 22, 2010
  2. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Now that it's the playoffs, I'd like to ask again, when was Ernie Wakely ever a top-10 goalie? We're not so far down in the draft that guys like him deserve to be drafted. Can he cost his first-seeded team the series? We'll see how the arguments go.
     
  3. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Ernie Wakely is one of 6 goaltenders inducted into the WHA Hall of Fame. That may mean squat to seventieslord, but it means something to me. It means he was considered one of the best of the league by his peers and reflective hockey historians, judged worthy of all-time remembrance.

    Here were the voters who inducted him:

    http://www.whahof.com/hofmembers2.html

    They inducted these goalies: Richard Brodeur, Joe Daley, Al Smith, Ernie Wakely, Gerry Cheevers, Ron Grahame. Should they have inducted the other five but not Wakely? I did not draft him in the MLD or the AAA but felt him worthy of the Double-A Draft level competition. Is he at all comparable in skill level or performances to the up-and-down play 4-year NHL career Chechmanek? seventieslord implies that the choice of Wakely not only is one of losing an edge in goaltending match-up but that it is significant enough to potentially cost this playoff series. You guys decide.

     
  4. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Oh, now I see the problem here. It's that you think WHA HOF inclusion automatically makes you great. It's not that he's in, or who voted him in, that matters. It's the inclusiveness of it. This is a league that operated for seven seasons, and they have six HOF goaltenders. If The NHL sent 6 goalies to the hall for every 7 seasons, they would have 81 HOF goaltenders. This would, based on the ATD/MLD/AAA drafting this season, take us to the Puppa/Palmateer/Lemelin/Potvin/Meloche tier. So you could say that in a roundabout way, the 6th-best WHA goalie is about as good all-time as the 80th-best NHL goalie. But that's only a true parallel comparison if the WHA was equal to the NHL, and everyone knows it wasn't (how much less of a league it was, is a continuing discussion) - among the top-1000 picks, how many more NHL players per season were chosen compared to WHA players per season? I'm estimating it's about 6 WHA players per season versus about 10 per season for the NHL. Assuming that our player evaluations developed over the years through all-time drafts is fairly accurate, and assuming that the differences in each league from one player on the pecking order to the next is similar, the best figure I can come up with is that the 6th-best goalie in WHA history is like the (81 * 10/6) 135th-best goalie in NHL history (based on the sheer length of time the leagues operated and the difference in quality) - This would put him in a tier of goalies we've never drafted deep enough to select. Intuitively, and based on the guy's actual achievements, that seems about accurate. TDMM can correct me if he likes, since these types of conundrums seem to interest him.

    Now if all those figures made your eyes glaze over, I'll go back to my original question. When was Ernie Wakely ever a top-10 goalie in the world? I'm looking at all the AAA/AA goalies, and the ones I'm naming in the undrafted thread, and they can all claim to have been a top-10 goalie in at least a couple of seasons. (Melanson and Al Smith are debatable). It just seems like you want to see Wakely ride this WHA HOF nomination to a premature selection and I say, not on my watch.
     
  5. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    :noway: You constantly misrepresent positions so they are easier to attack. I stand by what I said all along, NO MORE, no less.
     
  6. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    but that seems to be what you want to default to. He made the WHA HOF so that's reason enough to draft him. I say, let's look at his goaltending achievements. I know, what a concept. This isn't Paddy Moran here, where we have no meaningful numbers and very little quotes and extremely sparse awards to judge him and have to default to his hall nomination to accept his greatness - this is a goalie who's been retired just 32 years.

    If you think I argue maliciously or unfairly let's talk about it via PM, but be prepared to provide examples and not just speak in general terms. As it pertains to Wakely - please don't get all cranky just because you're being challenged. We should all challenge eachother, and if our opinions withstand the challenges, then we're on the right track. And if they don't - maybe we should rethink them.
     
  7. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Are there any forwards or defensemen in the WHA HOF who were not drafted?

    A one time 2nd team all-star from the WHA is not very impressive, as there are NHLer goaltenders with a single 2nd team who were not selected.

    Wakely doesn't appear to have much playoff success in the WHA either, for what that's worth.

    If I was voting (and I'm happily free from it :p:), I would want to know why Wakely is in the WHA HOF. I honestly have no idea what being one of the 6 best goalies in WHA history means (or if he really was one of the 6 best). 70s math seems reasonable in the absence of more information, but I'm sure there is more information out there.

    Edit: Just re-read VI's profile again, and it definitely seems like Wakely was inducted because of his career accomplishments (games played, shutouts, wins) in the WHA. I don't really know what to make of them, but I don't really know what to make of the accomplishments of most players at this level, which is again, why I'm happy I'm free from voting at this level.

    Just looking at his hockey-reference and legends of hockey profiles, I'm kind of impressed by Wakely leading the NHL in GAA in 1969-70 - granted it was while playing only 30 games in the division full of expansion teams, but worth noting on his resume.

    I'm definitely more impressed that he was selected to play in the 1971 NHL All-Star game than his single 2nd Team nod in the WHA.
     
  8. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    By the logic of the position, at least one person thinks the Blue Jays backup will have to be called upon early in the series against the 4-year NHL career (playoff-inexperienced and little international tourney play) Cechmanek:

     
  9. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Simmons has a grand total of 24 games of playoff experience, Wakely has 41 (31 of those in WHA). Neither has any international experience whatsoever.

    Cechmanek has 23 playoff games in NHL, and 32 in significant international games (WC and WJC) - and he won five medals (three golds) there. He also has five consecutive championships in Czech league as #1, being voted best goalie in the league every friggin' season of those, and nabbing a playoff MVP on the side.

    Then there's Wregget who not only has 56 NHL playoff games (more than both your goalies combined), but a history of greatly elevating his play come playoff time and posting dominant playoff performances.

    Bolding quotes about your backup that he was durable isn't gonna magically make the huge chasm between the teams in goal disappear.
     
  10. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Well you're making good points, but one thing about simmons is that he played when just six jobs were available, and was excellent in two playoffs. Wregget came up with big performances, but if 6 jobs were available, he would not have been an NHL goalie. What I'm saying is that comparing their playoff GP totals isn't fair.
     
  11. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    I brought up the GPs because VI made the claim of " 4-year NHL career (playoff-inexperienced and little international tourney play) Cechmanek", which is ********.

    Anyway, Simmons is good backup. But Wakely is the worst starting goalie in AA. I'd rank the goalies thus:

    Cechmanek
    Wregget
    Simmons
    Wakely

    A question I have about Simmons - in 1958-59, he started 58 games for the Bruins (one of two seasons he was the #1 on his team), and he played 11 playoff games the previous season (the other one when he was #1), yet come playoff time, his backup Harry Lumley (in his career's twilight) got the nod to start all the playoff games. Was Simmons injured, or was his regular season so bad that the coach decided to go with the backup on the brink of retirement that played only 11 games that season (and sat on the bench when Simmons played well in the playoffs the previous year)?
     
  12. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    I consider the Czech league a clear step down from the WHA, and didn't consider at all world juniors.

    With Wregget in net for the playoffs, your team has an EDGE in goaltending. The difference between bluelines is huge however.

    And stop the swearing. We haven't had that on THIS board, have been more civil than most. Let's keep it that way.
     
  13. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    - I don't know the details on why simmons didn't play in the playoffs that year. Maybe The Trail says something.

    - even after talent pool size is considered, simmons has to be better than Wregget.

    - yes, the 1990s czech league is not the wha. However, we aren't talking about two goalies whose levels of dominance in those leagues were the same. Wakely was good in the wha. Cechmanek was DOMINANT in the czech league, enough to give him a good edge IMO. And he did more in the nhl too.
     
  14. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Simmons was DOMINANT in three other leagues, 1st and 2nd team all-star selections.

    And Simmons' NHL success is not inferior to Cechmanek's, superior even if judging play against the best, in the NHL playoffs.

    Anyways, those who see edges here: better look at forward cores and bluelines too. Neither team can rely on goaltending to win or lose a series here unless the skaters are comparable.
     
  15. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    What swearing? Geez.

    Simmons won one more series. He has playoff edge on Cechmanek, but Wregget has edge on Simmons.

    And please do explain the huge difference between the bluelines. I see that you have the (slightly worse) brother of my #7 at your top pairing, for starters.
     
  16. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    I assessed both Mironov brothers pre-draft and it confirmed what was known for a long time: Dmitri had a better career and performances than brother Boris. I put Boris on the at-best 7th dman list, at the position you took him.

    We should definitely discuss this after the holiday. Right now I'm more into the Smirnoff. Cheers!
     
  17. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Heh, I always forget that you have Christmas more on 25th overseas (we have the relevant part on 24th). So enjoy ;)

    Dmitri has got fewer icetime:
    D's icetimes: 25, 24, 24, 20, 20, 20, 19, 18, 17, 14
    B's icetimes: 26, 26, 25, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 20, 20, 18

    Dmitri has a wee bit better adjusted +/- (+47 vs. +11).

    Their PP/PK utilization and PPG are basically same.

    All in all very similar, yet I'd take the one on whom coaches relied more.
     
  18. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    A couple ramblings between early and late festivities...

    I don't take the use of the word "dominant" in capitals lightly. We're talking about five first team all-stars, five league championships and a playoff MVP. Simmons' minor league dominance (which I definitely do value considering it came during the O6 era - but more the WHL 1st team and AHL 2nd team, as the EAHL was a scrub league) was much closer to the degree of Wakely's WHA dominance (one 2nd team) than Cechmanek's Czech league dominance. Cechmanek was like Dryden over there.

    Anyway, it should surprise no one that Cechmanek and Simmons are my favourites in this series, in no order.

    I've been around long enough to see both their careers too, and I am not so sure about that. Boris was good enough to make the THN preseason top-20 a couple of times. Dmitri was never really at that level.

    The scouting reports on both players was very similar: hulking size, on-and-off use of their size (Boris did it much more frequently though), very good puck skills, particularly on the PP, prone to bad decisions occasionally, and far from polished defensively, but adquate to survive a long time (although Boris rose above this for a while).

    Statistics point to Boris being better:

    - He averaged 22.32 minutes a game in his career, compared to Dmitri's 21.00
    - They were remarkably similar offensively, with Dmitri averaging 0.29 and 0.24 at ES and on the PP, respectively, and Boris with 0.26 and 0.25.
    - They were used a remarkably similar amount of time overall on special teams: Boris45% on the PP, 29% on the PK for a total of 74%, Dmitri 54% and 25% for a total of 79%. Dmitri getting more special teams time but less overall time highlights that he was a bit more of a specialist player. Boris also played more on the PK and less on the PP, indicating better balance in his skill set.
    - Given that Boris' icetime and PPG averages were attained over more games, which is harder to do (716 to 556), you have to give him credit in the offense department and major credit in the icetime department.
    - for icetime reasons, Boris' adjusted +11 and Dmitri's adjusted +47 tell us nothing, because Boris played harder minutes.

    Here's what was said in 2000 about them:

    Boris: Has improved his defensive play to the stage where he belongs as part of a team's top defense against other teams' top lines... he uses his size well to protect the puck... isn't a thumper, but he's strong and he eliminates people...

    Dmitri: likes to get involved in the attack... probably too much involved... can be a bit of a risk factor in his own zone. Can be beaten one on one and it helps to play with a defensive defenseman. He has to learn to play as hard in his own zone as he likes to do in the attacking zone... has a long reach and is big, but plays soft and doesn't use either attribute to his best advantage. He gives up easily on plays in his own end. He likes to step up and challenge in the neutral zone but doesn't take the body well; he often lets the opponent get by him... a lot of skill, but a questionable work ethic... his offensive contributions don't always compensate for his defensive shortcomings...

    However: There is one thing that makes a major difference and tips the scales in Dmitri's favour, possibly all the way in his favour if you value it highly enough - his teams were succesful. He played 75 playoff games to Boris' 25. This is important for two reasons: contributing to good teams is a plus on your resume, obviously. The other is that his lower icetime can be explained by being on better teams with deeper defense corps.

    I'll let you two hash this one out. I lean towards Boris, but I did really like Dmitri in Toronto. Both have their place. But Dmitri being picked as a first pairing guy 100 picks before Boris, who's a #7, seems off to me. I'd prefer the inverse of that, personally, though something in the middle seems most appropriate. A team with Boris as their #7 (assuming he's actually their 7th-best D-man) has to be doing a lot better than a team with Dmitri as a top pairing guy (assuming he's actually one of their top-2 D-men)

    This would be an excellent HOH poll. (So would Todd Gill vs. Hal Gill)
     
  19. Hedberg

    Hedberg MLD Glue Guy

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    New England pulls off the upset in 7

    Three Stars:
    1. Roman Cechmanek
    2. Viktor Yakushev
    3. Shawn McEachern
     
  20. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    congrats
     
  21. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Wow, didn't expect that. Too bad we didn't have time to discuss this series properly.
     

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