Double A Playoffs: 4 New England Whalers vs. 5 Middlebury Panthers

Hedberg

MLD Glue Guy
Jan 9, 2005
16,399
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BC, Canada
New England Whalers

coaches Dave Tippett, Paul Maurice

Shawn McEachern (A) - Jeff Carter - Joe Murphy
Lowell MacDonald - Robert Lang - Erik Cole
Jeff Friesen - Mikko Koivu (C) - Justin Williams
Dave Hunter - Curtis Brown - Radek Dvorak
Tom Fitzgerald

Jeff Norton - Sean Hill
Kyle McLaren - Tom Edur
Barret Jackman (A) - Patrice Brisebois
Boris Mironov

Roman Cechmanek
Ken Wregget

vs.

Middlebury Panthers

coach Terry Murray

Brent Ashton - Vinny Prospal - Donald Audette
Darcy Rota - Guy Charron - Jim Fox
Errol Thompson - David Legwand - Ales Hemsky
Bob Errey - Paul Yseabert (A) - Randy Wood
Benoit Hogue, Wes Walz

Joni Pitkanen - Don Sweeney (C)
Paul Martin - Stewart Evans (A)
Moe Mantha - Aaron Ward
Igor Kravchuk

Leif Holmqvist
Gilles Gilbert​
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,247
48,776
Winston-Salem NC
Here's how I see it right now, each team has a definitive edge in one of the positions:
New England up front, and Middlebury in net.

To be honest the only thing I don't like of New England's is having Dvorak on the 4th line. And that's mostly a personal preference thing.

On D I would argue that Middlebury has a slight edge, but I'm sure that Arcand would argue otherwise. I'll post more info on the D later on. I'd also argue that the forwards are probably closer then they appear here. Again, I'll post more on this later. Unfortunately work has been a bit of a time eater. And by a bit I mean "holy hell, I can't remember what my house looks like"
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Dvorak has been a fairly useful penalty killer in his career, so he's not entirely one-dimensional. I'm not a fan either, but he does have that as a redeeming quality, at least.
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,247
48,776
Winston-Salem NC
Dmen:

Top Pairing:
Hill and Sweeney are close, though I'd argue an edge to Sweeney due to his better defensive play. That said, both are legit All-Stars at this level, so you're not talking a huge edge between the two either way it goes.
Norton vs Pitkanen call me crazy on this one but I have a feeling that Pitkanen is being underrated here. Norton definitely has an advantage in consistency, which is arguably the biggest issue with Pitkanen's game right now. Norton has a +110 total goals for/against differential on his career, a career that lasted for 15 seasons. That's pretty solid. Pitkanen, in 7 seasons, has exceeded that with a +116 to date. I will say Joni is helped out in that regard by the fact that some of the teams he's been on to date are better then Norton's. The 03-04 Flyers in particular (I wouldn't say the 08-09 Canes as they squeaked in, despite making it to the ECF). Playoff scoring levels are similar between the two.

Edge: none (possible slight edge to Middlebury)

Second Pairing:
Edur is clearly the best offensive dman on either pairing. But talk about a weird one. Breakout season at 23 and then he retires from hockey, and not due to any kind of injury? Odd to say the least. Would he have been able to keep it up? Was he simply a one year wonder?
McLaren is a pretty solid defenseman. By 21 he was a top pairing guy with Boston in terms of ice time, though the year before his trade to San Jose he was the #3 and didn't get any higher then #3 with the Sharks, usually as #4.

Martin doesn't really do anything to really stick out statistically aside from his ice time. But he's a sound two-way defender. He's been a top pairing guy since the end of the lockout, twice being the #1 man in New Jersey and now in Pittsburgh. He's not the strongest offensive presence around but does have 3 30+ point seasons to date. He is also a two-time Olympian with the US, though he's yet to play in a game due to coaching decision in 2006 and injury in 2010. He also was a key penalty killer for the Devils post-lockout.
Evans is probably the least known member of the Middlebury defense, but he's a strong pick for this level. In the decade of the 1930s he's #11 in defenseman scoring (depending on how you define Northcott and Georges Mantha). Along with respectable offensive numbers for his era, he also was top 10 in penalty minutes 5 times during that decade.

Edge: Middlebury

Third Pairing:
Jackman is a pretty solid stay at home/PK specialist type. He's not a #1 defenseman type but guys that are defensive specialists rarely are, since they rarely get powerplay time. Pretty good +14 career +/- to date.
Brisebois is a pretty decent two-way defenseman, has a cup to his name, and has a pretty long career where he logged quite a few minutes. He doesn't really have any standout seasons, rather he's a pretty consistent high 20s-30s point defenseman.

Mantha has the best offensive seasons of any defenseman on either team, although when adjusted for era Pitkanen isn't far behind. He's not an overly strong defensive player but then again those early 80s Jets and especially those mid 80s Penguins teams were pretty horrid. And it was with those teams that he logged the majority of his career minus numbers. As he moved on to better teams his numbers improved in that regard.
Ward is a total late bloomer, but he does have 3 Stanley Cups and one more SCF appearance to his credit. Mind you he was only a key performer in one cup and the SCF runner up with Carolina. Ward and Wesley tended to get the tough PK assignments in 01-02 when the Canes lost to Detroit, Ward was #3 on the team in TOI for that run. In 05-06 he moved up to #2 in TOI with a pretty big advantage over the #3 defender. Again, Ward tended to draw the big PK assignments with the Canes that season.

Edge: none, possible slight New England edge.

7th dmen are a wash and neither would be expected to be much of a factor in his season.

overall: slight edge to Middlebury, but for the most part the units are fairly close. The difference in the 2nd pairings, with the Olympian Martin and the two-way play of Evans is the one place there's a clear distinction IMO.

I'll see what I can get in with the forwards here, but with the way things are going with work I'm not sure I'll get the time.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
see, comparing players at the AA level is so hard. They can only be so good. They can be infinitely bad, but they can only be about as good as AAA players. Since most GMs made solid picks all the way through, there is very little opportunity to single out guys who shouldn't have been drafted.
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,247
48,776
Winston-Salem NC
see, comparing players at the AA level is so hard. They can only be so good. They can be infinitely bad, but they can only be about as good as AAA players. Since most GMs made solid picks all the way through, there is very little opportunity to single out guys who shouldn't have been drafted.

Yep, I agree entirely here. And I'll flat out admit I give their forwards the edge. This makes sense though, being that New England took an entire top 6 of forwards before they selected anyone from another position. Tony and I, on the other hand, jumped on Pitkanen and Martin early, picked up Holmqvist early, and even Sweeney and Mantha cracked our top 10 picks. Two very different approaches to team building.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,658
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Orillia, Ontario
see, comparing players at the AA level is so hard. They can only be so good. They can be infinitely bad, but they can only be about as good as AAA players. Since most GMs made solid picks all the way through, there is very little opportunity to single out guys who shouldn't have been drafted.

Agreed.

To me, the only significant difference between the teams is how they are contructed. Since all the players are so equal, it's how they work together that makes the difference at this level.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
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411
Seat of the Empire
Edur really ain't a one-year wonder - in addition to two excellent NHL seasons, he also has three good WHA seasons as teenager under his belt.

I also don't see the goaltending edge - what makes Holmqvist better than Cechmanek?
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,247
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Winston-Salem NC
Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means saying Cechmanek shouldn't be here. He's a good #1 goalie for this level. But I am saying I think Holmqvist is the best at this level.
Cechmanek:
94/95 - Czech Extraliga best goalie
99/00 - World Championships All Star
99/00 - World Championships Best Goaltender
00/01 - NHL Second Team All Star
00/01 - NHL All Star Game
02/03 - Jennings Trophy

Holmqvist:
61/62 - Sweden Junior Player of the Year
64/65 - Sweden All Star Team
65/66 - Sweden All Star Team
66/67 - Sweden All Star Team
67/68 - Sweden All Star Team
67/68 - Elitserien Guldpucken (MVP)
68/69 - Sweden All Star Team
68/69 - Elitserien Guldpucken (MVP)
68/69 - World Championships Best Goaltender
69/70 - Sweden All Star Team
69/70 - World Championships All-Star Team
70/71 - Sweden All Star Team
98/99 - IIHF Hall of Fame Inductee

The list of players that won the MVP in Sweden twice is pretty short. Anders Andersson, Peter Forsberg, Leif Holmqvist. That's it.

I will say the awards history I have for the Czech league is spotty at best. So if you have any more info there please feel free to add it.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Cechmanek:
99/00 - World Championships All Star & Best Goaltender
00/01 - NHL Second Team All Star & All-Star Game
02/03 - Jennings Trophy

Holmqvist:
68/69 - World Championships Best Goaltender
69/70 - World Championships All-Star Team
98/99 - IIHF Hall of Fame Inductee
All lesser leagues aside, looking at their accomplishments at the highest level of competition they played at.

These considerations make them seem pretty close in value. Of course, some of us have seen Checkmanek play in the best league of his era and come up wanting at times, whereas Holmqvist is a question mark that suggests a higher what-if potential.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,190
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Regina, SK
All lesser leagues aside, looking at their accomplishments at the highest level of competition they played at.

These considerations make them seem pretty close in value. Of course, some of us have seen Checkmanek play in the best league of his era and come up wanting at times, whereas Holmqvist is a question mark that suggests a higher what-if potential.

That's a good point. Cechmanek is seen as, for some reason, not as good as his accomplishments. I think part of it is fair and part of it isn't. I think most people would agree; it's just determining how much is fair and how much isn't that you'll see divergent opinions on.
 

Hedberg

MLD Glue Guy
Jan 9, 2005
16,399
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BC, Canada
Edur really ain't a one-year wonder - in addition to two excellent NHL seasons, he also has three good WHA seasons as teenager under his belt.

And I think there should be a small level of benefit of the doubt given to guys whose careers ended due to non-hockey reasons.
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,247
48,776
Winston-Salem NC
The Jennings trophy is an odd one to me to be honest. Do you rate it as an individual award, a team one, or a combination of the two? To be honest I lean towards team but the goaltender also plays a role in that to be sure. Mind you I take the Vezina trophy until the 80s with a grain of salt as well since it was essentially what the Jennings is now.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,190
7,332
Regina, SK
The Jennings trophy is an odd one to me to be honest. Do you rate it as an individual award, a team one, or a combination of the two? To be honest I lean towards team but the goaltender also plays a role in that to be sure. Mind you I take the Vezina trophy until the 80s with a grain of salt as well since it was essentially what the Jennings is now.

definitely a team award. I think nothing of it. I think George Hainsworth tends to be massively overrated because of the prestige that goes with the name "Vezina", and he won three of them, but they were really just Jennings trophies.

We would have drafted Roman Turek by now, otherwise, right? He won a Jennings. But I like Bob Froese much better. At least for one season he was seen as the 2nd-best goalie in the NHL.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,872
411
Seat of the Empire
I will say the awards history I have for the Czech league is spotty at best. So if you have any more info there please feel free to add it.
Regarding the awards:
- 5x Czech league best goalie (1995-1999)
- 1x Czech league playoff MVP (1997)

marginally relevant team stuff:
- Olympic gold (backup)
- 3x World Champs gold (1x as #1, 1x as 1a, 1x as backup)
- 2x World Champs bronze (1x as #1, 1x as backup)
- WJC bronze (#1a)
- 1x Czechoslovak league title
- 5x Czech league title (consecutive)
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,190
7,332
Regina, SK
It's that five-year period where Cech was the Czech league's best goalie and the league champion, that tells me if he only chose to come over to the NHL earlier he'd have at least been an average NHL starter. And let's face it. Anyone who was an average NHL starter for five years and a star (to a degree that many will disagree on) for three of them, should be selected by now - that's only a small step below Felix Potvin, maybe more like a Guy Hebert.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,872
411
Seat of the Empire
Why the Whalers should win:

- superior forward corps
- strong two-way play from the forwards - 9-10 of them are good or better defensively
- team speed - most of Whalers' forwards are very strong skaters
- comparable #1 goalies, and a backup with long history of playoff heroics and clutch play
- comparable defensive corps, but with more physicality and no potential defensive liabilities like Pitkanen, Mantha or Ward (aside from Norton perhaps, though even he wasn't brainfart master like Pitkanen or Ward)
 

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