Post-Game Talk (GBU): don't call it a comeback

old kummelweck

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
25,236
5,338
I'm actually concerned about concussions. If they could somehow treat them with 100% recovery and no long term effects, I'd be fine with a this type of hit. Any other type of recoverable injury, fine. But with the research around this stuff, I have a tough time enjoying this part of the game, or chalking it up to 'part of the game'.

Probert, Boogaard, Rypien, Belek, Montador. The link between CTE, depression, suicide and long term mental health issues should concern anyone who watches the sport.
 

Push Dr Tracksuit

Gerstmann 3:16
Jun 9, 2012
13,239
3,316
obesity, smoking, pollution, alcohol

there's a lot of things in this world that will kill you or worse and 99% don't make you a million dollars

i have the same level of concern for concussions as I do for the rest of them, I played hockey until physically I couldn't anymore and I wouldn't trade a day of it, I'd be more upset if someone told what I could and couldnt do to my body
 

Montag DP

Sabres fan in...
Apr 4, 2007
11,855
4,069
...Maryland
I feel bad for Laine, the Jets, and their fans. Hockey is a rough sport and sometimes these things happen, even though the hit was perfectly clean. I know how we all felt when Eichel went down right before the season started, and then add onto that the fact that concussions can be very problematic in the long run, and it just makes it that much worse. I hope it's very minor and he's back really soon.
 

Onslow

Registered User
Mar 25, 2015
3,308
797
Here and There
For the record, I'd like to point out that McCabe went for the stick check earlier in the game and got burned by Laine, which resulted in a two-on-one on and a GA.
 

AustonsNostrils

Registered User
Apr 5, 2016
7,409
2,533
I'm actually concerned about concussions. If they could somehow treat them with 100% recovery and no long term effects, I'd be fine with a this type of hit. Any other type of recoverable injury, fine. But with the research around this stuff, I have a tough time enjoying this part of the game, or chalking it up to 'part of the game'.

Probert, Boogaard, Rypien, Belek, Montador. The link between CTE, depression, suicide and long term mental health issues should concern anyone who watches the sport.


My question with CTE/concussion syndrome is the NHL has a long history, players didn't wear helmets and fighting was much more common with every team having a few enforcers/goons and probably more hitting. And the players were not that much smaller, one only has to look at famous photos of Howe and Hull shirtless. We didn't hear about depression and suicides of retired players, old time players do say they were no doubt concussed many times but never diagnosed but you didn't miss games because of a hit the previous night made you see stars and unable to remember where you were.

So there are possibilities, that old time players have suffered from depression related to CTE/concussions but we just never learned about them, people back in the day were much more private about their personal problems. Although suicides of ex-NHLers would have become known and I can't remember one enforcer from the 50s-60s known to have committed suicide. I don't know if suicides in general have increased over the decades, perhaps there are players who slowly committed suicide with alcohol to deal with their depression and other symptoms.

The other possibility is today's players overall are bigger, faster and stronger and the protective equipment, the shoulder and elbow pads specifically are much bigger and harder so hits do take a bigger toll on the brain. The boards/glass definitely have much less give in them. So I'd think that has to contribute to more concussions, more severe concussions anyway.

I wonder if the NHL and NHLPA has taken a retrospective look at players from the 50s,60s and 70s by contacting them and doing interviews with them and/or their survivors to see how many have suffered from symptoms that could be related to CTE and comparing the data collected to the general population of men of their ages.

My hunch is things are more dangerous now for players due to speed/size/rinks/equipment and the problems of previous generations of NHLers are undocumented and/or under reported.

I'd take the upper body equipment right out of the control of the players and the equipment industry, you play in our league, we will work with the NHLPA and come up with stock shoulder and elbow pads, you will wear them and you won't modify them on your own.

I'm still mystified by the apparent difference in severity of concussions from previous generations of players. There are those out there who think it's bs, same people who think depression and other mental illnesses aren't caused by organic brain dysfunction, that we're just not as tough as people once were. This is bs but it's out there. Today's hockey and football players are just as tough or more. I've read many first person accounts of post concussion syndrome, amazing ones on The Players Tribune, most recent by Gabe Landeskog, and they are frightening. Tough young guys who become shells of themselves, crying like babies, can't be left alone, they need their parents and/or wives to watch over them, need to be in the dark, living in a fog. Some lose their balance and coordination and only time and rehabilitation bring those back to normal. Surely this had to happen to some players in the 60s and 70s, no amount of toughness can make you able to continue to keep playing when you're unable to handle daylight and are constantly crying. But I've never heard an old time player describe anything that severe.

Both the NHL and NFL have to find ways to make the game safer or there will be less kids allowed to play the game and they'll lose fans who can't stomach watching lives destroyed by the game. I say that and then I think of UFC, I'm not a fan of it but I do watch it with friends occasionally when there's a big event and I'm stunned by it, I think to myself 'How in 2017 is this even legal?'. Bloodlust runs deep in our DNA, people like to watch violence. We never outlawed boxing but we did pass laws/regulation to make it safer. So I don't see the NHL and NFL going away and I don't see them ever taking the hitting out. I'm not a lawyer but I've wondered why the NHL and NFL's standard player contract just didn't contain a clause saying 'This is a dangerous sport, you assume the risk of injury and even death that may come from playing the sport.' At least from this point on, I know the lawsuits are arguing that the NHL and NFL had knowledge of health risks and they were kept from the players.
 

AustonsNostrils

Registered User
Apr 5, 2016
7,409
2,533
obesity, smoking, pollution, alcohol

there's a lot of things in this world that will kill you or worse and 99% don't make you a million dollars

i have the same level of concern for concussions as I do for the rest of them, I played hockey until physically I couldn't anymore and I wouldn't trade a day of it, I'd be more upset if someone told what I could and couldnt do to my body

How old are you? And how severe are these physical problems that keep you from playing hockey today?

If you were 50 years old and found yourself crying every day, you couldn't remember how to get home from the grocery store, you had sudden fits of rage lashing out against your wife and kids you love but they are afraid of you now and you then feel shame and guilt and the stark fear maybe your wife will tire of this hellish life and abandon you? Do you think you'd still say 'I wouldn't trade a day of it'?

I'm sure you've heard of this study/survey they did with top young Olympic athletes. They asked them the question if doing whatever it takes to win a gold medal would mean they didn't live past 50 what would they choose - the gold medal with the short life or not winning and living a normal lifespan which today is close to 80. The majority chose the gold medal. It's not surprising though, somebody 25 has a totally different conceptualization of the world and themselves as a 40 year old, a 50 year old etc. 25 years seems like forever to most 25 year olds and winning a gold medal is everything in their lives at that moment, they don't have their own families yet, people who depend on them, they only know injuries, they don't know what a degenerative illness feels like both physically and mentally. You wouldn't regret being a burden to your family?

I'm old enough to know, I wasn't 15 years ago. If playing a sport cost me a knee, a hip that needed to be replaced at 45, then sure I would have no regrets that I played a sport. Replace a damaged hip with a damaged brain and only a fool wouldn't regret it, some may not admit it because it would make them look weak.
 

Cirris

Registered User
Nov 10, 2006
5,594
784
Crackport
I feel bad for Laine, the Jets, and their fans. Hockey is a rough sport and sometimes these things happen, even though the hit was perfectly clean. I know how we all felt when Eichel went down right before the season started, and then add onto that the fact that concussions can be very problematic in the long run, and it just makes it that much worse. I hope it's very minor and he's back really soon.

I've kind of lost all sympathy for `Pegger fans at this point. The endless character assassinations on McCabe are really starting to **** me off. I get that we'd be all upset if something like that happened to Eichel, ROR, Reinhart. But some of those pegger idiots are starting to advocate maiming of McCabe and other Sabre players.

At this point, I don't have any sympathy for the franchise and their fans. I still hope Laine will be fine after mandatory protocols. He's a great young star and will be fun to watch.

For the record, I'd like to point out that McCabe went for the stick check earlier in the game and got burned by Laine, which resulted in a two-on-one on and a GA.

Yes, I remembered that too. I don't think it changed McCabe's mindset on the hit though. McCabe had no chance on the puck, he's got to play the body or Laine walks in on McCabe's goal.
 
Last edited:

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,340
5,844
Buffalo,NY
I've kind of lost all sympathy for `Pegger fans at this point. The endless character assassinations on McCabe are really starting to **** me off. I get that we'd be all upset if something like that happened to Eichel, ROR, Reinhart. But some of those pegger idiots are starting to advocate maiming of McCabe and other Sabre players.

At this point, I don't have any sympathy for the franchise and their fans. I still hope Laine will be fine after mandatory protocols. He's a great young star and will be fun to watch.



Yes, I remembered that too. I don't think it changed McCabe's mindset on the hit though. McCabe had no chance on the puck, he's got to play the body or Laine walks in on McCabe's goal.

Some fans are completely clueless and they even respond with something like "Nobody Like McCabe" like hes some goon or something and don't realize he's actually a capable YOUNG top pairing defenseman jesus morons are really annoying these days. Hell if McCabe turns out to be a top #1 Dman down the line i'll take that over an elite winger on the Sabres.
 

Montag DP

Sabres fan in...
Apr 4, 2007
11,855
4,069
...Maryland
I've kind of lost all sympathy for `Pegger fans at this point. The endless character assassinations on McCabe are really starting to **** me off. I get that we'd be all upset if something like that happened to Eichel, ROR, Reinhart. But some of those pegger idiots are starting to advocate maiming of McCabe and other Sabre players.
I wasn't referring to the people who post stupid things on the internet, but Winnipeg fans in general.
 

old kummelweck

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
25,236
5,338
For the record, I'd like to point out that McCabe went for the stick check earlier in the game and got burned by Laine, which resulted in a two-on-one on and a GA.
I immediately thought of this gaff. I didn't realize it was Laine though.
 

old kummelweck

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
25,236
5,338
My question with CTE/concussion syndrome is the NHL has a long history, players didn't wear helmets and fighting was much more common with every team having a few enforcers/goons and probably more hitting.

Just two comments about this.

One, the equipment was different and the players were slower. There is one school of thought about the equipment. That the players don't pay a price when they hit harder than they did in the past, so they are learning to hit harder than they once did.

As far as the past, there was less study of the brain in general. CTE is a relatively new discovery in medical science.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,207
35,372
Rochester, NY
I'm actually concerned about concussions. If they could somehow treat them with 100% recovery and no long term effects, I'd be fine with a this type of hit. Any other type of recoverable injury, fine. But with the research around this stuff, I have a tough time enjoying this part of the game, or chalking it up to 'part of the game'.

Probert, Boogaard, Rypien, Belek, Montador. The link between CTE, depression, suicide and long term mental health issues should concern anyone who watches the sport.

You can't remove concussions completely from a sport that involves contact.

You can't even remove concussions completely from sports that don't involve contact.

Of the kids that I coach in hockey, I've seen kids get concussions before checking starts and after.

I've also had hockey players get concussions both playing volleyball in gym class (he dove after a ball and his head bounced off the gym floor) and playing two hand touch football at home with his older brothers (he was pushed, fell, and bounced his head off of a statue in his mom's garden).

I've also seen people get concussions in non-check adult league hockey due to various falls and collisions with the boards and posts and such.

There are things that could happen that would make concussions less likely. But, I don't know if the players and the league want to make rules to try and make fighting as rare as it is in the NC$$ game and to take body checking completely out of the game.

One step towards reducing checking could be the USA Hockey rules on interference where they have tried to legislate out "finishing a check" and trying to make body checking legal only when a player is separating the player from the puck.

But, even in that scenario, the McCabe check is legal and as such, it is a part of the game.

The only way to get what McCabe did to Laine out of the game is to outlaw body checking, like the women's game.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
78,709
40,480
Hamburg,NY
You can't remove concussions completely from a sport that involves contact.

You can't even remove concussions completely from sports that don't involve contact.

Of the kids that I coach in hockey, I've seen kids get concussions before checking starts and after.

I've also had hockey players get concussions both playing volleyball in gym class (he dove after a ball and his head bounced off the gym floor) and playing two hand touch football at home with his older brothers (he was pushed, fell, and bounced his head off of a statue in his mom's garden).

I've also seen people get concussions in non-check adult league hockey due to various falls and collisions with the boards and posts and such.

There are things that could happen that would make concussions less likely. But, I don't know if the players and the league want to make rules to try and make fighting as rare as it is in the NC$$ game and to take body checking completely out of the game.

One step towards reducing checking could be the USA Hockey rules on interference where they have tried to legislate out "finishing a check" and trying to make body checking legal only when a player is separating the player from the puck.

But, even in that scenario, the McCabe check is legal and as such, it is a part of the game.

The only way to get what McCabe did to Laine out of the game is to outlaw body checking, like the women's game.

Which wont actually eliminate the concussion issue since its a problem in girls/women's hockey. I speak, unfortunately, from experience.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,207
35,372
Rochester, NY
Which wont actually eliminate the concussion issue since its a problem in girls/women's hockey. I speak, unfortunately, from experience.

Like I said early on, there is no way to eliminate concussions in life, let alone a game that goes at the speed of hockey.

All they can do is try and reduce them as much as possible.

I believe the best that they could do would be to eliminate checking and fighting. But, that would only go so far.

Concussions are a fact of life and happen in all sorts of situations and you can't eliminate them no matter how hard you try.
 

Icicle

Think big
Oct 16, 2005
6,055
1,007
You learn when you're 14 not to make that kind of pass. If you didn't learn, you set yourself up for this later in your (teammates) career.

They aren't brutes. It's 90% the passers fault, 10% the player's for not just giving up cause he didn't know what was in front of him at all. McCabe did what he was supposed to do and it'd be stupid to try to impede what McCabe did in any way on the hit. It was perfectly clean.
 

truthbluth

Registered User
Feb 2, 2011
7,371
6,655
Can't it just be unfortunate? McCabe lines up a good check, and if Laine doesn't curl up to brace, their heads don't collide, and Laine bounces right up, or maybe just gets the wind knocked out of him.

I don't see why, just because of the result, people feel the need to 'do something' about this. Guys bumping heads at center ice during clean body checks is not a trend. I can't even recall the last time it happened.

I'm truly sorry for Laine, but it wasn't a bad pass, a bad play by Laine, or a bad hit by McCabe. It was just bad luck.

And I agree with joshjull, the only rule that would prevent that check would be an elimination of body checking all together, which wouldn't eliminate concussions.
 

WpgBuffan

Registered User
Jun 9, 2008
511
121
I've kind of lost all sympathy for `Pegger fans at this point. The endless character assassinations on McCabe are really starting to **** me off. I get that we'd be all upset if something like that happened to Eichel, ROR, Reinhart. But some of those pegger idiots are starting to advocate maiming of McCabe and other Sabre players.

At this point, I don't have any sympathy for the franchise and their fans. I still hope Laine will be fine after mandatory protocols. He's a great young star and will be fun to watch.

At first I felt bad that the hit resulted in him getting hurt. As the last day and a half has gone by I am with you on this. Him being hurt is bothering me less and less listening to Jet fans on this board and in person here in Winnipeg. Whenever Big Buff tries to take someones head off that is all that they talk about and post the hit everywhere. The fan base has a huge double standard going on right now because it was one of their guys getting lit up.
 

old kummelweck

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
25,236
5,338
You can't remove concussions completely from a sport that involves contact.

Which wont actually eliminate the concussion issue since its a problem in girls/women's hockey. I speak, unfortunately, from experience.

I've pretty much said my peace about this type of hit. I know I like the physical part of the game, but when it ends in something permanent and life-impacting, I start to question how long it will be around, and even question whether I should enjoy it. The truth is the science is lining up against contact in sports, and the two are going to have to have their day of reckoning. I don't think the NHL will be able to change on their own, you can see why in the discussion by the fans.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

Guilty of Being Right
Mar 1, 2008
18,243
1,847
Upstate NY
The rivalry all started with the Kane trade. He hasn't been there for 2 years and they can't let it go. This is also the same place where they think Teemu is a god and he played there for 3 years.
Nah, it's been disproportionately heated before that.

Silver Medal chants for Miller while cheering for Blake Wheeler and a squad with nobody good enough for Team Canada was the first time I remember thinking "**** those guys."
 

Butt Ox

Registered User
Oct 24, 2006
1,773
807
Luddite Island
But some of those pegger idiots are starting to advocate maiming of McCabe and other Sabre players.

At this point, I don't have any sympathy for the franchise and their fans. I still hope Laine will be fine after mandatory protocols. He's a great young star and will be fun to watch.

Just projecting on the frustration to the Sabres. Think about it - 'Peggers are measuring their Epeen against the Leafs. Heated Calder race, lots of back-n-forth with the hyperbole and tribalism. Now, that race looks like it's going to go Matthews way. Fans get mad and blame the Sabres as they can't involve themselves in the usual **** posting and us vs them narrative. Easy enough to get mad and rail against McCabe when essentially it's all about Laine vs. Matthews.

We see it in the Sabres fanbase as well when some seek to discredit Eichel or Matthews because Matthews might have a better rookie season. When you self-identify enough with your team to the extent that you wish evil on competitors and their fans it is time to inventory the content of your character.

I consider the deal with Chevy a lose/lose situation. No one has bragging rights on this mess. Unless you're still banging the Armia drum or want to play with that whole potentials/future ouroboros. Easy enough to ignore the fans who still think they "won". Equally easy to ignore the ones who still cite the leaping into the hit/headhunting/classless fans narrative. Small minority. The larger majority seem to be good people, just like here.
 

Cirris

Registered User
Nov 10, 2006
5,594
784
Crackport
Just projecting on the frustration to the Sabres. Think about it - 'Peggers are measuring their Epeen against the Leafs. Heated Calder race, lots of back-n-forth with the hyperbole and tribalism. Now, that race looks like it's going to go Matthews way. Fans get mad and blame the Sabres as they can't involve themselves in the usual **** posting and us vs them narrative. Easy enough to get mad and rail against McCabe when essentially it's all about Laine vs. Matthews.

We see it in the Sabres fanbase as well when some seek to discredit Eichel or Matthews because Matthews might have a better rookie season. When you self-identify enough with your team to the extent that you wish evil on competitors and their fans it is time to inventory the content of your character.

I consider the deal with Chevy a lose/lose situation. No one has bragging rights on this mess. Unless you're still banging the Armia drum or want to play with that whole potentials/future ouroboros. Easy enough to ignore the fans who still think they "won". Equally easy to ignore the ones who still cite the leaping into the hit/headhunting/classless fans narrative. Small minority. The larger majority seem to be good people, just like here.

I get that `pegger fans are dealing with disgusting Leaf fans who are relishing Laine going down. But I remember when McDavid blew out his shoulder last year. I don't think there was the same distasteful attitude about it.
 

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