Does this team have enough meat and potatoes?

[BloatedGuppy]

I was reviewing our hypothetical upcoming lineup in my head, and while the memory of the 2016-2017 Vancouver Canucks is one of a galaxy of low talent plugs polluting the ice with tons of effort and zero excitement, I'm noticing a worrisome absence of...well..."meat and potatoes". If we have our druthers and the young guys play, our starting forward group will contain...

1. A concussion prone and aging Daniel Sedin.
2. An undersized forward who plays a skill game in Sven Baertschi.
3. A complete greenhorn in Brock Boeser.
4. A small, soft, slow offensive complimentary player in Reid Boucher.
5. A soft, lanky, cerebral winger/center in Markus Granlund.
6. A speedy lightweight who needs an instruction manual for his own zone in Nikolay Goldobin.

Anchoring this crew...

1. Henrik Sedin, who has the heart of a lion but is pushing 40 and starting to get buried defensively.
2. Brandon Sutter, who isn't pushing 40 but still gets buried defensively.
3. Bo Horvat, who is the darling of Canucks nation and can do no wrong but STILL gets buried defensively.

And...

1. Loui Eriksson, a wildly overpaid 30 year old player signed to score goals and who ironically might now be our only stabilizing defensive force in the top 9.

There's a huge void where the names "Hansen" and "Burrows" were once listed. Who is going to forecheck? Who is going to go into the corners and win battles and retrieve pucks? There's been much talk (fully warranted) about how this team is an offensive void and needs to add speed and skill, and it absolutely does. Looking at this (admittedly entirely hypothetical) lineup though, where the heck is the defense? The size? The battle? Keeping in mind we were already the league's smallest team BEFORE the 6'8 guy packed up his bags and went home (we are actually the smallest team that is not cynical exaggeration).

Does this matter? Has today's game changed THAT much? Keep in mind our prospect pipeline (such as it is) contains hulking specimens like Dahlen, Juolevi and Jordan Subban.

Click to read more...

 

[GetFocht]

I think we tend to forget that Juolevi is 6'3 and only 18 years old. He will likely be over 200lbs in his prime.

With that being said, you only need 2 or 3 big, hard-hitting players. Skill and IQ trumps everything.

 

[MS]

If we're talking about bodychecking and fighting, meh. We've got far bigger problems.

If we're talking about having gritty forwards who can do heavy lifting defensively ... yeah, we're screwed. Our forward group is soft as hell and terrible defensively. And it will be one of the reasons we're terrible next year. Burrows and Hansen will be sorely missed, and the job Burrows in particular did defensively is horribly underrated by fans here.

 

[Intoewsables]

You're really selling Brandon "Balls of Steel" Sutter short here. The guy grew up in VIKING, ALBERTA for christ's sake. Doesn't get any more meat and potatoes than that.

 

[Ryp37]

We're insanely soft

Hopefully this is the year we sign some pluggers to fill this role and dish at the deadline.

It's a weak UFA pool and it's gonna be really tough to entice some to sign here (+guys like Versteeg probably re-sign) but there's Winnik, Boyle, King, Wingels, Stalberg, Versteeg etc

But knowing Jim we probably sign Ryan White or something.

 

[Alan Jackson]

Aside from perhaps a Brendan Gaunce playing a slightly larger role, it's a definite concern.

A healthy Dorsett might be able to get in on the forecheck, but he shouldn't be an everyday player at this point.

This should be where a guy like Virtanen can help you, but I don't have any idea where his game will be at next fall.

 

[iceburg]

Nice to have the gravy but you have to have the meat and potatoes to put it on!

Seriously though, you're right on point. There is a shocking lack of offensive depth on this team which may or may not be filled by some of the youth. But, without guys like Hansen and Burrows, the team will not be competitive. I still say the trades were good ones, in Burrows case because of his age, in Hansen's case because this team isn't going to be competitive before he ages out.
Bottom line, getting depth throughout the forward group, offense, defense, size, and grit, are high priorities and necessities if this team hopes to be competitive..

 

[black ace]

With Hansen and Burrows gone Canucks are going to need to find players in this "next core" willing to be the guy that doesnt let the opposing team get away with stuff. We saw a bit from Horvat when he dropped the gloves with Jones against Edmonton but there was too many games late in the year where a Canuck was hit hard and went down injured and little or nothing happened. Need to build a culture. Thats where a guy like Virtanen contributes more than points.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Im more worried about how this team is going to score goals and provide some entertainment.

Players like dahlen, horvat, and boeser are the key in today's nhl. You need players who aren't afraid to go into the dirty areas. Jensen and Schroeder were polar opposites in size but both failed mainly because they never grasped this concept. It's the same reason why Sven baertschi is so inconsistent.

Throwing hits is overrated because all it means is that youre spending too much time chasing the pick. People make a big deal over the hit stat but that's the last thing I care about in analyzing a hockey player. It's like when fans said we lost to the flames because of ferland despite the fact it was one of the last reasons why we lost that series.

 

[Tryforthekingdom]

I think the complete lack of defensive acumen among our forwards is far more concerning at this point.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think the complete lack of defensive acumen among our forwards is far more concerning at this point.

Well I'm addressing that in the OP, though. I'm not wringing my hands over the departure of Hansen and Burrows because of their fearsome bodychecking. They were among our best (and only) forecheckers and battle-winners.

We're left with a flotilla of middle six forwards who are almost universally shy about physical contact and who prefer dangling to grubbing for loose pucks.

 

[vancityluongo]

Yeah. We could really use a Brad Richardson or two.

 

[CanaFan]

Sure but you find those guys in later rounds or as overage/college signings just like Burr and Hansen were. The focus should be on acquiring the rarest thing right now - high end talent - while along the way picking up guys that don't have that high end talent but might make good middle 6 types (Will Lockwood for example). That part is the numbers game and why we really should be looking to add draft picks much more than we have so far. It's crazy that this "free" pick from CBJ will be the highest pick acquired and kept (presumably) since the Kesler deal way back in 2014.

 

[MS]

Well I'm addressing that in the OP, though. I'm not wringing my hands over the departure of Hansen and Burrows because of their fearsome bodychecking. They were among our best (and only) forecheckers and battle-winners.

We're left with a flotilla of middle six forwards who are almost universally shy about physical contact and who prefer dangling to grubbing for loose pucks.

It really is impressive that a forward group this small/soft/poor defensively is also so talent-deprived and terrible offensively.

 

[struckmatch]

For the love of god, focus on acquiring skill and the ability to create offence first.

 

[WinterEmpire]

It really is impressive that a forward group this small/soft/poor defensively is also so talent-deprived and terrible offensively.

The perfect combination for a 29th place team

 

[CanaFan]

It does show that this focus on picking up top 6 tweeners like Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, maybe Dahlen is not an ideal strategy. They don't score enough to be pure scorers but they don't play an intense, physical, or puck retrieval game that would make them useful middle 6 types like Hansen was either.

They are kinda of neither type and that's why when people write out these mock line ups with these guys and trumpet it as some sort of great rebuild I just kind of roll my eyes. It's really not very good compared to what you would see on a competitive roster.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It really is impressive that a forward group this small/soft/poor defensively is also so talent-deprived and terrible offensively.

I feel like we're casting a wide net atm looking for skilled players to address the goal scoring issues, and that's fine. I'd investigate a Tanev for Drouin swap as well, or something in a similar ballpark. The team needs a new core to build around and that core is going to need to contain some high octane offensive stars, and you're not going to get that from Megnas and Chaputs.

I guess we can worry about surrounding those players with good blue collar yeomen if and when we find them, but oh lord in the meantime this frigging team is going to have its head held underwater every night. This has to be the gentlest NHL side ever iced.

 

[y2kcanucks]

If we're talking about bodychecking and fighting, meh. We've got far bigger problems.

If we're talking about having gritty forwards who can do heavy lifting defensively ... yeah, we're screwed. Our forward group is soft as hell and terrible defensively. And it will be one of the reasons we're terrible next year. Burrows and Hansen will be sorely missed, and the job Burrows in particular did defensively is horribly underrated by fans here.

I think we got a taste of that after the deadline.

It'll be funny to see how bad this team is with Daniel, Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, Megna, and Eriksson as the possible top 9 wingers.

 

[MS]

It does show that this focus on picking up top 6 tweeners like Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, maybe Dahlen is not an ideal strategy. They don't score enough to be pure scorers but they don't play an intense, physical, or puck retrieval game that would make them useful middle 6 types like Hansen was either.

They are kinda of neither type and that's why when people write out these mock line ups with these guys and trumpet it as some sort of great rebuild I just kind of roll my eyes. It's really not very good compared to what you would see on a competitive roster.

Yup. Spot-on post.

Plus Boeser is also this sort of player in the short term, although we all obviously hope he can be better than that in the longer term.

 

[CanaFan]

Yup. Spot-on post.

Plus Boeser is also this sort of player in the short term, although we all obviously hope he can be better than that in the longer term.

Ya longer term I think Boeser can fit into the "scores enough to be a scorer" like a Max Paciorretty type where even if he's a bit one-dimensional it's a worthwhile dimension. Much less so when you're eating up 18 minutes a night and PP time to barely hit 20 goals and 35 points.

 

[vancityluongo]

It does show that this focus on picking up top 6 tweeners like Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, maybe Dahlen is not an ideal strategy. They don't score enough to be pure scorers but they don't play an intense, physical, or puck retrieval game that would make them useful middle 6 types like Hansen was either.

They are kinda of neither type and that's why when people write out these mock line ups with these guys and trumpet it as some sort of great rebuild I just kind of roll my eyes. It's really not very good compared to what you would see on a competitive roster.

See below:

Not that it's happening in this thread, but I saw a couple comments on Twitter about how Maroon, Kassian, Lucic, etc. have given the Oilers this new found toughness and therefore the JV pick is somehow justified because there's this new supposed proof that toughness is important. Certainly don't disagree that the Oilers have a new identity, but it's because they landed a generational player and another franchise piece in Draisaitl, not because of how they rounded out their roster. Ottawa is another example of a team that rounded out their roster with players like Stalberg and Burrows to complement their franchise talent in Karlsson.

Of course, Benning seems to have the opposite view where he's looking to plug in tough, "heavy" players with lower offensive upside in the top-6 and weak, skilled tweeners in the middle-6. Foundational over franchise.

 

[Icebreakers]

I think we tend to forget that Juolevi is 6'3 and only 18 years old. He will likely be over 200lbs in his prime.

With that being said, you only need 2 or 3 big, hard-hitting players. Skill and IQ trumps everything.

I highly doubt Juolevi will be over 200 pounds during his prime. His body type makes it extremely hard to put on that kind of weight. Look at Tanev hes 6'3, 185. You dont think he tries to get stronger every year? Juolevi will probably play around 190-195 lbs.


Unless if he goes full bulk mode and has a crazy workout and meal program which i dont see happening because hes not that kind of player. Hes cerebral, he doesnt need that bulk.

 

[y2kcanucks]

See below:



Not that it's happening in this thread, but I saw a couple comments on Twitter about how Maroon, Kassian, Lucic, etc. have given the Oilers this new found toughness and therefore the JV pick is somehow justified because there's this new supposed proof that toughness is important. Certainly don't disagree that the Oilers have a new identity, but it's because they landed a generational player and another franchise piece in Draisaitl, not because of how they rounded out their roster. Ottawa is another example of a team that rounded out their roster with players like Stalberg and Burrows to complement their franchise talent in Karlsson.

Of course, Benning seems to have the opposite view where he's looking to plug in tough, "heavy" players with lower offensive upside in the top-6 and weak, skilled tweeners in the middle-6. Foundational over franchise.

Maroon and Kassian aren't core pieces. Lucic may be because of how much he makes, but you're right. The Oilers wouldn't be where they are without McDavid and Draisaitl. And sure those other players also are making the team better than they would be if they didn't have them, they're usually the types of players you acquire after you've built your core.

It seems like some Canucks fans are celebrating building those secondary pieces, and thinking they're good enough to be solid core pieces.

This team is headed down that same path those Oilers went down.

 

[skyo]

Im more worried about how this team is going to score goals and provide some entertainment.

Then you should be on team Owen Tippett for fifth overall, plus he's 6'2 - 200lbs, and he could have provide a bit of meat/potatoes down the road.