Does Joe Thornton’s playoff record keep him out of the HOF?

[Czech Your Math]

Good question. I think you pretty much answered it though. Making players around you insanely better is "bringing something to the table". We are talking regular season of course. Also singlehandidly changing the fortunes of a team in a season (2005-'06 Sharks) into contenders. Can't say that about Nicholls or Turgeon.

No doubt he helped Cheechoo, although he led the Sharks with 28 goals in '04. However, saying he singlehandedly turned the Sharks into contenders is a big stretch. They went to the WCF in the last season before the lockout, started 8-12-4 in '06 and ended up 5th in the conference. There have been plenty of teams that start slow and without a major trade end up fairly high in the standings.

 

[Gobias Industries]

I can understand if you don't want to put much weight on anything below a 5th place finish, but finishing top 5 multiple times is very noteworthy. .......

There is no one on this list that also has a win that isn't a sure-fire HOFer

This, plus back to back 90+ seasons is all I need to know to say yes IMO...
BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.138 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/126 UP.Browser/5.0.3.3

 

[Big Phil]

When Thornton won it, the rest of the top 5 was a well-past-his-prime Jagr, followed by Kiprusoff, Staal and Alfredsson. In that group, only Jagr and Alfie look like surefire HoF'ers and they aren't exactly Lemieux and Gretzky.

It's the combination of middling finishes and lack of competition which makes me question the historic value of Thornton's Hart record. Since the arrival of post-lockout elite talent, it has come to appear that he was only a top-3 player during a brief, transitional period when the league at a low ebb in household names.

To be fair he was the best player in the NHL that year. I dont think any player should ever be penalized because the NHL was going through a "transition" period. Jagr had revitalized his career by that time and 2005-06 was a monster year for him. Alfredsson and Heatley were already established stars in the NHL. Staal, Crosby and Ovechkin were either sophomores or rookies but in all honesty I still think they all had spectacular seasons. Winning the Hart and Ross in ANY season is a superb accomplishment. Yes, some years the competition is tougher than others but still.

And honestly, no one is going to outscore Crosby and Ovechkin on a regular basis.

 

[Big Phil]

No doubt he helped Cheechoo, although he led the Sharks with 28 goals in '04. However, saying he singlehandedly turned the Sharks into contenders is a big stretch. They went to the WCF in the last season before the lockout, started 8-12-4 in '06 and ended up 5th in the conference. There have been plenty of teams that start slow and without a major trade end up fairly high in the standings.

28 is a long cry from 56 and leading the entire NHL. The bottom line is what we saw is what we saw. We witnessed a struggling team an Cheechoo as a 7 goal scorer at the time of the trade. By the end he led the NHL and there isn't a poolie in the world that pegged Cheechoo as the Rocket Richard winner. The common denominator is Thornton. The team he arrived with skyrocketed while the team that traded him dropped like a stone. Keep in mind, in 2006-'07 when Crosby had 120 points and the Hart and Ross winner, Thornton was relatively close with 114.

Honestly, do you know any players outside the HHOF with top ten scoring finishes like this?

Thornton - 1, 2, 3, 5, 8

Can't say I do

 

[edog37]

The only way Thornton should get in is if he buys a ticket...

 

[Czech Your Math]

To be fair he was the best player in the NHL that year. I dont think any player should ever be penalized because the NHL was going through a "transition" period. Jagr had revitalized his career by that time and 2005-06 was a monster year for him. Alfredsson and Heatley were already established stars in the NHL. Staal, Crosby and Ovechkin were either sophomores or rookies but in all honesty I still think they all had spectacular seasons. Winning the Hart and Ross in ANY season is a superb accomplishment. Yes, some years the competition is tougher than others but still.

And honestly, no one is going to outscore Crosby and Ovechkin on a regular basis.

I don't think he was the best player in the NHL in 05/06, but don't see his HOF case as dependent on that. Thornton's consistently high peak already makes him a virtual lock.

I certainly wouldn't favor any current players to score more than Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes, but they aren't running away with the scoring race as many expected. As you said, winning the Hart/Ross in any season is an accomplishment. Will be interesting to see if someone can win a second Ross next year (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Sedin, St. Louis).

Thornton has kept up point-wise since the lockout:

Ovechkin 529, Thornton 510, Crosby 506

He also had four strong seasons before that (and lost a season to the lockout in between). He not only had some strong finishes in points and Hart voting, but over the current 10+ year stretch he leads the NHL in total points by a comfortable margin.

If Joe's HOF induction hinged on strong playoff performance, he would be doomed. However, at most it may prevent him from being voted in on the first ballot.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't think he was the best player in the NHL in 05/06, but don't see his HOF case as dependent on that. Thornton's consistently high peak already makes him a virtual lock.

I certainly wouldn't favor any current players to score more than Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes, but they aren't running away with the scoring race as many expected. As you said, winning the Hart/Ross in any season is an accomplishment. Will be interesting to see if someone can win a second Ross next year (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Sedin, St. Louis).

Thornton has kept up point-wise since the lockout:

Ovechkin 529, Thornton 510, Crosby 506

He also had four strong seasons before that (and lost a season to the lockout in between). He not only had some strong finishes in points and Hart voting, but over the current 10+ year stretch he leads the NHL in total points by a comfortable margin.

If Joe's HOF induction hinged on strong playoff performance, he would be doomed. However, at most it may prevent him from being voted in on the first ballot.

Agree with this post pretty much. But the bolded part I had to ask, if you didn't believe Thornton to be the best player in 2005-'06 do you consider the guy in your avatar to take that claim?

 

[Czech Your Math]

Agree with this post pretty much. But the bolded part I had to ask, if you didn't believe Thornton to be the best player in 2005-'06 do you consider the guy in your avatar to take that claim?

Of course, but I understand that Thornton also had a strong case. It really came down to JT beating out JJ for the Ross in the final week. If it hadn't been an Olympic year, or if Joe hadn't been traded, there's little doubt in my mind who would have won the Ross/Hart and probably Richard that year. However, opinion seems to be relatively balanced as to who was better that year. It just seemed like what Joe did (get a good club back on track, score a ton of points), Jagr did and more (got a bad club to the playoffs, scored a ton of points and 25 more goals, and set O6 team's record for goals/points to boot).

 

[Big Phil]

Of course, but I understand that Thornton also had a strong case. It really came down to JT beating out JJ for the Ross in the final week. If it hadn't been an Olympic year, or if Joe hadn't been traded, there's little doubt in my mind who would have won the Ross/Hart and probably Richard that year. However, opinion seems to be relatively balanced as to who was better that year. It just seemed like what Joe did (get a good club back on track, score a ton of points), Jagr did and more (got a bad club to the playoffs, scored a ton of points and 25 more goals, and set O6 team's record for goals/points to boot).

What do you mean if it "hadn't been an Olympic year". Both played in the Olympics even if Joe was his usualy no-show

 

[livewell68]

What do you mean if it "hadn't been an Olympic year". Both played in the Olympics even if Joe was his usualy no-show

Jagr got injured in the Olympics, aggravated his groin and was also hit with a vicious hit from behind that gave him a cut above the eye and might have given him a concussion even if it was never revealed that way.

Thornton played for a much stronger team with more stars.

Jagr was suppose to be the leader of the team and his team played deeper into the tournament.

Jagr before the Olympics was on fire having won player of the month in December or January I believe and was coming off consecutive multiple 3-4 Pts games.

 

[VanIslander]

Joe Thornton GWG in game 2 versus Detroit in the 2010 second round may turn out to be very important to the series.

Two more clutch plays, either goals or assists in key games, plus a Stanley Cup finals appearance this postseason and Joe is in the Hall for sure.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Joe Thornton GWG in game 2 versus Detroit in the 2010 second round may turn out to be very important to the series.

Two more clutch plays, either goals or assists in key games, plus a Stanley Cup finals appearance this postseason and Joe is in the Hall for sure.

that's just the thing. thornton can be a solid contributor in important situations when he doesn't have to carry the mail. we saw this in the '06 world cup, and we're seeing it now that the sharks are pavelski's team.

but if that's enough to keep him out of the hall of fame (to overlook his long career of compiling big stats), then you'd also have to pull a lot of guys out of the hall of fame.

 

[Blades of Glory]

Not a chance. Thornton's playoff legacy, most notably what he does in the second half of his career, is only going to determine whether he is regarded more as a Marcel Dionne or as a Steve Yzerman. Thornton had a 18-29 career that is eerily identical to Yzerman's in the same age period, both in individual and team performance in BOTH the regular season and the playoffs. Yzerman finally broke out in 1995-96, at age 30. Thornton is 30 this year.

This year's playoffs will be Thornton's make it or break it, in terms of performance. Is he forever going to be known as the dominant regular season player who couldn't lead his team to playoffs, or will he be a late bloomer? Time will tell.

I thought I'd quote my post from a few weeks ago because what Thornton is doing in these playoffs is almost identical to what Yzerman did in 1996. It was the second round against St. Louis that really pulled Yzerman out of the "choker" category for good; I remember he was challenged by Bowman (indirectly) after Game 1 against St. Louis, and came back to have something like 8 points in Games 2/3, and of course score the winner in Game 7.

Thornton was the focus of massive media scrutiny after an under-whelming point total in the first round (which was massively overblown, IMO), but he has been absolutely dominant in the second round against Detroit. It's not just the points he's putting up, it's the time he's striking. When the Sharks are down to start a comeback, when the game is tied, overtime, he's showing me something I've never seen from Joe Thornton. Has he finally turned the corner? We don't know yet. But I've always said that Steve Yzerman is Reason #1 why you can't write off a player based on the first half of his playoff career. And Joe is starting to prove me right (though he has a long way to go).

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Thornton shouldn't make the HoF IMO. At least not at this point.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Even if he hasn't accomplished what has been expected of him in the playoffs, his trade (giveaway?) is still the worst move Boston ever made

(...and it looks like he may be in the process of silencing the "no show Joe" critics anyway)

 

[Big Phil]

The Game winning goal in Game 2, another goal in Game 3, assisting on the overtime winner as well. Don't look now but Thornton is playing inspired hockey in the playoffs. Of course all of that can change come next round, two great games doesn't shake a reputation.

Still HHOF bound though

 

[Blades of Glory]

The Game winning goal in Game 2, another goal in Game 3, assisting on the overtime winner as well. Don't look now but Thornton is playing inspired hockey in the playoffs. Of course all of that can change come next round, two great games doesn't shake a reputation.

Still HHOF bound though

As a Shark fan, I've waited almost 5 years for this Joe Thornton to show up. The player long criticized for being unable to lift his team in the postseason simply made the two time defending-Western Conference champions look like they didn't belong in the playoffs. Detroit had no answer for him. Babcock tried matching him up with two different lines centered by the two best two-way players in the entire league, and Thornton toyed with both of them. Especially Pavel Datsyuk, who played very well in the series on the whole, but just could not handle Thornton.

I've always said that when Joe Thornton makes use of all of his skills at the same time, there isn't a more dominant player in the league. Yeah, I'm biased, but it's pretty rare to see him at the level he is right now. He's throwing his body around, taking care of the puck, shooting regularly, driving the net, and, right now, is probably the Sharks' best back-checking forward. Even when he's not doing any of those listed things, he's still the best passer in the league, so when he actually does put it together, it's pretty fun to watch.

I'll tell you when I knew Thornton had turned the corner. It was in Game 4, when the Sharks were down 7-1. In blowout losses of the past, Thornton was famous for his blank stare and general apathy at the events on the ice. But he finally displayed some emotion in that game. Not just a little bit, either. He wanted a piece of any person wearing a red jersey, and even went after Nick Lidstrom, pulling him down to the ice with one hand. It made an impression on both teams; the Sharks have been pushed around consistently in the playoffs in the last 4-5 years, and finally, their best player seemed to say "enough is enough." He's got a ways to go before salvaging his playoff reputation, but I have a feeling that he's not going to be considered a "choker" much longer.