Does Joe Thornton’s playoff record keep him out of the HOF?
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
He's already a lock. The only thing his playoff resume is holding him back from, is a spot in the top-100 players of all-time. And shortly it won't be enough to keep him out of that. He's not that far from a Bill Cowley career at this point.
heartandsoul
Registered User
I think that the record isn't as bad as him being a 'no show' in a lot of these games. Mental toughness is an issue.
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
Not a chance. Thornton's playoff legacy, most notably what he does in the second half of his career, is only going to determine whether he is regarded more as a Marcel Dionne or as a Steve Yzerman. Thornton had a 18-29 career that is eerily identical to Yzerman's in the same age period, both in individual and team performance in BOTH the regular season and the playoffs. Yzerman finally broke out in 1995-96, at age 30. Thornton is 30 this year.
This year's playoffs will be Thornton's make it or break it, in terms of performance. Is he forever going to be known as the dominant regular season player who couldn't lead his team to playoffs, or will he be a late bloomer? Time will tell.
Playoff struggles or not, Thornton is a mortal lock for the HHOF. He is already right at the edge of the top ten playmaking centers of all-time, and by the time his career is over, he will likely be in the 5-7 range. He has already led the league in assists 3 times, and finished second twice. Has an Art Ross, Hart, one first-team AS, two second-team AS, and he likely should have a third second-team AS, but the writers judged Vincent Lecavalier's 52 goals as more impressive than Thornton's 92 assists in 2007. Top five scoring finishes of 3, 1, 2, and 5, and an 8th place finish this year.
From 2003, he is also the last player in the league to have 100 points, 100 PIM, and multiple fighting majors in the same season. Before him, I believe it was Eric Lindros in 1996. I think many people forget how versatile a player he has been throughout his career. At age 23, he was an elite powerforward capable of scoring 35-40 goals, in a low-scoring era, with 100 PIM. At age 26, he turned himself into a 96 assist playmaker. Thats pretty damn impressive.
This year's playoffs will be Thornton's make it or break it, in terms of performance. Is he forever going to be known as the dominant regular season player who couldn't lead his team to playoffs, or will he be a late bloomer? Time will tell.
Playoff struggles or not, Thornton is a mortal lock for the HHOF. He is already right at the edge of the top ten playmaking centers of all-time, and by the time his career is over, he will likely be in the 5-7 range. He has already led the league in assists 3 times, and finished second twice. Has an Art Ross, Hart, one first-team AS, two second-team AS, and he likely should have a third second-team AS, but the writers judged Vincent Lecavalier's 52 goals as more impressive than Thornton's 92 assists in 2007. Top five scoring finishes of 3, 1, 2, and 5, and an 8th place finish this year.
From 2003, he is also the last player in the league to have 100 points, 100 PIM, and multiple fighting majors in the same season. Before him, I believe it was Eric Lindros in 1996. I think many people forget how versatile a player he has been throughout his career. At age 23, he was an elite powerforward capable of scoring 35-40 goals, in a low-scoring era, with 100 PIM. At age 26, he turned himself into a 96 assist playmaker. Thats pretty damn impressive.
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Kyle McMahon
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- May 10, 2006
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Thornton can lead the league in assits for another ten years for all I care, but he won't receive my vote for the HOF (OK, I know I don't actually have one) if he doesn't show some sort of desire or results in the playoffs. I've never seen such a passive, unengaging, undetermined star player.
I'm not even sure the pre-30 Yzerman comparables are fair. His results were unspectacular and his desire questioned. Thornton's results are worse, and IMO, his desire is no longer "questionable", it's very clearly not there at all. Looks like a player that's in it to rack up personal stats and cash a paycheck.
Does anyone else think that fight with Lindros in about 2003 was the turning point? Before that, Thornton was a physical power forward that was difficult for teams to play against. His game has changed considerably since then, and while he can rack up assists like nobody else in the league in the regular season, his soft style is exposed every spring.
If he continues this pattern, I really don't know how he makes the HOF. His claim to fame would be being the worst playoff performer of his generation, and possibly of all time, relative to his regular season accomplishments.
I'm not even sure the pre-30 Yzerman comparables are fair. His results were unspectacular and his desire questioned. Thornton's results are worse, and IMO, his desire is no longer "questionable", it's very clearly not there at all. Looks like a player that's in it to rack up personal stats and cash a paycheck.
Does anyone else think that fight with Lindros in about 2003 was the turning point? Before that, Thornton was a physical power forward that was difficult for teams to play against. His game has changed considerably since then, and while he can rack up assists like nobody else in the league in the regular season, his soft style is exposed every spring.
If he continues this pattern, I really don't know how he makes the HOF. His claim to fame would be being the worst playoff performer of his generation, and possibly of all time, relative to his regular season accomplishments.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I have alwsays wondered if the lindros fight was some kind of turning point too.
Regardless, Kyle... he is already a lock. You'll see.
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Regardless, Kyle... he is already a lock. You'll see.
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Big Phil
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It's at the point now where he will get in despite his playoff woes. The Sharks were 30 seconds away from being down 2-0 in the first round and heading back to Colorado. If that happens, I think the series is over and Joe and the Sharks look very bad. I can't explain the lack production and even lack of passion Joe shows at critical times. Throughout his whole career I can only think of one time (2004 World Cup) where he played well at a critical time. He was invisible in the 2006 Olympics, he was slow as molasses in the 2010 Olympics despite his linemate (Heatley) producing, and he has never once had a postseason that you weren't left shaking your head. I just think his game wasn't built for urgency and clutch play. That is honestly what I am starting to think. Thornton has shown a remarkable knack of being able to be shut down for long periods of time when the checking is tougher.
That being said, he won a Hart, an Art Ross, was a 1st team all-star once, a second team all-star twice and had more points in the last decade than anyone else. At this point he just might end up like Dionne. But even then, Dionne was a much more lethal goal scorer and very comparable in setting his mates up as well. At this point, without the postseason success I don't see him alongside Dionne either.
But yeah, he'll be in the HHOF
That being said, he won a Hart, an Art Ross, was a 1st team all-star once, a second team all-star twice and had more points in the last decade than anyone else. At this point he just might end up like Dionne. But even then, Dionne was a much more lethal goal scorer and very comparable in setting his mates up as well. At this point, without the postseason success I don't see him alongside Dionne either.
But yeah, he'll be in the HHOF
Kyle McMahon
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Well, it's a good thing the induction ceremony is in November. If it was in the spring, Joe probably wouldn't show up for it.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Joe Thornton HHOF
As things stand his lack of playoff success may delay HHOF enshrinement by a couple of years.
There are slight improvements in this year's playoffs. Thornton is not getting trapped deep in the offensive zone(may be a function of playing against inexperienced opposition) and executes faster. Spends less time in "useless" ice areas and his skating is a bit more efficient(more linear).
Still not in top physical shape.
As things stand his lack of playoff success may delay HHOF enshrinement by a couple of years.
There are slight improvements in this year's playoffs. Thornton is not getting trapped deep in the offensive zone(may be a function of playing against inexperienced opposition) and executes faster. Spends less time in "useless" ice areas and his skating is a bit more efficient(more linear).
Still not in top physical shape.
I probably watched most of Joe's career in Boston and the Lindros fight didn’t seem like a turning point, it was his season in Davos and a new contract. Joe was still a physical force after the Lindros fight, he got in another fight that year and didn’t seem to shy away more. During the playoffs he had some horrible rib injury and shouldn’t have even played (he gets a free pass from me, which still hurts a little). After the lockout, his year in Davos and new contract, he was a different player. Thornton went from a ppg player with 100 penalty minutes a season to a Lady Byng finalist. He had 6 penalty minutes in his final 23 games in Boston, a big difference from a guy who would rack up 100 in a year.
I would argue when you look at Thornton’s career as a whole, right now he is an elite point collector, not an elite player. His playoff performances are one of the most bizarre things I have seen in sports.
Wow, I had this EXACT conversation with a buddy of mine the other night.
For several years now I have viewed that Lindros fight as a turning point in Thornton's career, you are absolutely right about his game changing after that. If you remember, he suffered a broken eye socket and you could see how bloodshot his eye was through the cage he had to wear for a few months.
Just like you said, Thornton was a big, physical power forward who threw his weight around and got into the occasional fight for Boston. He played like an alpha dog, clearing and holding space and tangling for the puck. While he was never a menacing player by any means, he definitely made his presence felt out there. Since that fight he has just not been the same player, I swear he is invisible half the time when I watch Sharks games. With his size and shot he should be putting more pucks on net and scoring more goals off deflections, but he just loves staying on the perimeter and working the boards, that's why his goal production continues to fall. As I said to my friend during our conversation the other night, Thornton is basically a 6'4", 235-pound Craig Janney at this point, and has been for a while. Great playmaker and a great guy, no question about that, but he racks up empty stats in the regular season and disappears in the playoffs. A simple look at his career postseason production is all it takes: 79 games, 12 goals, 43 assists, 55 points.
Dipsy Doodle
Rent A Barn
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optimus2861
Registered User
I remember that series; Mike Komisarek absolutely nailed him with a Larry Robinson-like hit along the boards early in that series (game 3?). I don't know how Thornton even got up from that, already suffering from the rib injury. Sometimes I think that series is when Thornton really lost his taste for physical hockey. He tried to play through his injury and the Habs punished him for it.
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
As with Marcel Dionne, just too many regular season accomplishments to ignore despite a bad to mediocre playoff record.
Thornton still has time to correct it though. At about the same age, Yzerman was considered a post season failure and was almost dealt from the Wings.
Thornton still has time to correct it though. At about the same age, Yzerman was considered a post season failure and was almost dealt from the Wings.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
It's entirely too early to ask this question. If it all ended tomorrow, Thornton's resume' wouldn't be that much better than Martin St. Louis (who is far from a lock according to his HoF thread). But he's got the better part of a decade to pad his stats, take runs at a Cup, and try to put his current reputation behind him. Come back in 8 years to discuss.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
He had 98 points in 93 playoff games by the end of his playoff as a 30-year old. It's not the same.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Nothing wrong with debating it now. Just assume his career ends today, and discuss.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
That being the case, his career would end today with a clearly sub-HoF portfolio.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Nope. Already a lock.
Show me the players who have won a hart, that are not in the hall. Now among those players, show me the ones who have led the league in an offensive category multiple times.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
His playoff resume keeps him from being first ballot if he retired today.
But he would still get in eventually.
But he would still get in eventually.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
That's a pretty narrow definition for HoF candidacy. Thornton's had some good years but if he retired today I would hardly say he is a lock for induction.
Made 1st All-Star once?
Never won any award except in a single season (2006)?
Not only does he have no Cups, but a leaguewide reputation specifically as a choker?
Traded in his prime? People constantly talking about whether he needs to be traded again?
Sorry, being one of the better assist-men in the league for a few years doesn't make you a shoo-in for the Hall. See: Adam Oates.
If he sticks with it and lands high on the career list, then he's got a good shot. But a lock if he retired tomorrow? No.
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
Point is, he was considered a post season failure, and history has rebranded him a playoff warrior. Personally, I never called Yzerman a failure at anything. He was one of my favourites from the time he entered the NHL.
Thornton is obviously a different case and he's behind Yzerman at the same age, but there is still alot of time left in his career to change the perception like Yzerman was able to do. I don't think he'll ever be considered a warrior, but there is time to remove the failure tag.
