Dodge is discontinuing the Charger/Challenger for, well, this...

[Hammettf2b]

2023 will be the last year for the V8 Charger/Challengers and it looks like Dodge is going into the EV direction.

Click to read more...

 

[MMC]

How long before my annual LA Auto Show trip moves to the metaverse?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Barf. Not a Charger fan at all but Barf.

I could write a goddamn book about how much I am 1) a fan of EV's as daily drivers; and 2) a virulent enemy of them from an enthusiast perspective. Speed is just a tiny portion of a muscle car or sports car, and EV's completely fail every enthusiast checklist item other than acceleration.

Can't you just leave the fun cars alone and go sell more of that stupid CUV EV stuff?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The fake exhaust w/ ICE sounds are a little cheesy to me. Guys that are into muscle cars are purists, but maybe there's a market for teens/early 20s that are about to get into fake muscle cars. Not trying to sound snooty, there is just an inherent dichotomy with the concept. Maybe it will catch on in time, but whether it's a pretend Hellcat going for 800hp or a Prius, mining for and producing EV batteries for a major transition among the passenger car market is quite a gamble with it's own problems. I see an up and down market that Dodge will have to contend with, even if the concept catches on relatively well. In the meantime, if you're going for high HP with an EV vehicle, go full on with the concept. I don't think trying to install fake ICE sound effects will last long with consumers.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

The fake exhaust w/ ICE sounds are a little cheesy to me. Guys that are into muscle cars are purists, but maybe there's a market for teens/early 20s that are about to get into fake muscle cars. Not trying to sound snooty, there is just an inherent dichotomy with the concept. Maybe it will catch on in time, but whether it's a pretend Hellcat going for 800hp or a Prius, mining for and producing EV batteries for a major transition among the passenger car market is quite a gamble with it's own problems. I see an up and down market that Dodge will have to contend with, even if the concept catches on relatively well. In the meantime, if you're going for high HP with an EV vehicle, go full on with the concept. I don't think trying to install fake ICE sound effects will last long with consumers.

Well said.

Who exactly asked for this? Who is this proposed car actually for?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Well said.

Who exactly asked for this? Who is this proposed car actually for?

I can't think of an obvious target consumer group. The old heads will refuse to buy, and young guys aren't so much into muscle cars, and the ones that are don't care about EV vehicles. It will take a whole new consumer group to form but that seems a ways off to me...15 years?

 

[HansonBro]

I think Dodge should have just found a way to hook up a hockey card to the spokes.... fake exhaust? Gaf and an insult to the muscle car industry

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Absolute joke.

 

[Baby Punisher]

2023 will be the last year for the V8 Charger/Challengers and it looks like Dodge is going into the EV direction.

That "exhaust sound" reminds me of the sound that the car in the Wraith made. For the '80s the Wraith which was also made by Dodge was pretty good. Today, not so much. It's like Dodge took an old recording of the Wraith, remixed it, and inserted it into their new Challenger. WHY DODGE!? WHY!?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I can't think of an obvious target consumer group. The old heads will refuse to buy, and young guys aren't so much into muscle cars, and the ones that are don't care about EV vehicles. It will take a whole new consumer group to form but that seems a ways off to me...15 years?

Bingo. That about sums it up.

 

[beowulf]

Makes me think of this movie

 

[Winger98]

the sound is stupid but the car itself looks like a dodge. Performance wise, I doubt it's going to be bad.

 

[TaLoN]

the sound is stupid but the car itself looks like a dodge. Performance wise, I doubt it's going to be bad.

Performance-wise, it's easy to make a high performance EV, as it's 100% torque from the start. Just give it a big enough battery and power/torque isn't an issue.
It will be boring to drive though, as it's just push the go pedal and it does it's thing.

Might as well be driving one of these for all the driver involvement...

 

[Winger98]

Performance-wise, it's easy to make a high performance EV, as it's 100% torque from the start. Just give it a big enough battery and power/torque isn't an issue.
It will be boring to drive though, as it's just push the go pedal and it does it's thing.

Might as well be driving one of these for all the driver involvement...

so the worry is that it will do its job too well.

 

[TaLoN]

so the worry is that it will do its job too well.

The worry is, it will be a complete bore from a driver's experience.

 

[Winger98]

The worry is, it will be a complete bore from a driver's experience.

so point me in the direction of you complaining about ABS. Or power steering. Or...hell, pick anything that has been implemented over the past thirty years that isn't a fully electric car. If the driving experience is such a high priority then essentially anything that assists the driver should receive at least a modicum of the vitriol thrown at electric cars.

But it doesn't happen. No one complains about the driver assistance in gasoline powered cars and the horse and torque are the first numbers people will spout off. Bemoaning the death of the driving experience is only used to rag on electric cars, not because they are actually doing it but because it's easy and people don't like electric cars for reasons.

If you want a car that offers more of an experience, I'm sure there are cars out there that will still strip things back (well, maybe, not promising that) or buy an older car. And if there is really a market for it, someone probably will fill it with an electric, too. Instead of plaid, maybe they'll have a PITA mode.

 

[TaLoN]

so point me in the direction of you complaining about ABS. Or power steering. Or...hell, pick anything that has been implemented over the past thirty years that isn't a fully electric car. If the driving experience is such a high priority then essentially anything that assists the driver should receive at least a modicum of the vitriol thrown at electric cars.

But it doesn't happen. No one complains about the driver assistance in gasoline powered cars and the horse and torque are the first numbers people will spout off. Bemoaning the death of the driving experience is only used to rag on electric cars, not because they are actually doing it but because it's easy and people don't like electric cars for reasons.

If you want a car that offers more of an experience, I'm sure there are cars out there that will still strip things back (well, maybe, not promising that) or buy an older car. And if there is really a market for it, someone probably will fill it with an electric, too. Instead of plaid, maybe they'll have a PITA mode.

Automatic headlights, I've complained a lot about that, seeing everyone driving with no lights on in the fog and rain and snow.

Automatic transmissions, I've complained about not wanting that since 1997. I have only owned manual transmission cars since that time.

If you've read my posts here, you'd have seen both.

Lane assist, thankfully no manual transmission car even gets that option as enhanced cruise control options only come with automatic transmission cars.

Self driving cars... just shoot me now. I enjoy driving, the last thing i want is my own car taking that joy away from me.

I own 2 cars, both are 6 speed manuals, a 2012 Shelby GT500 and a 2015 Audi S4. Neither have any "enhanced" driver's assistance because they do not put them on manual transmission cars.

I never use automatic headlights, because i actually want them on in certain situations, not be a hazard to others because the car can't realize morning fog is dangerous without lights on. The car didn't realize rain during the day is dangerous without lights on.

One of the few "automatic" things developed in the last 20 years i do like? Automatic wipers! The Audi has never done a window fart because of that. No intermittent setting can match automatic wipers. Love it!

Edit: another thing I've complained about... paddle shifters on sports cars! I don't want video game shifting! There's zero point to it. If you paddle shift the automatic transmission, you take away performance while still not getting the manual transmission experience anyway. Give me a manual transmission with a clutch and a stick or take it away. I don't want it.

 

[HansonBro]

Automatic headlights, I've complained a lot about that, seeing everyone driving with no lights on in the fog and rain and snow.

Automatic transmissions, I've complained about not wanting that since 1997. I have only owned manual transmission cars since that time.

If you've read my posts here, you'd have seen both.

Lane assist, thankfully no manual transmission car even gets that option as enhanced cruise control options only come with automatic transmission cars.

Self driving cars... just shoot me now. I enjoy driving, the last thing i want is my own car taking that joy away from me.

I own 2 cars, both are 6 speed manuals, a 2012 Shelby GT500 and a 2015 Audi S4. Neither have any "enhanced" driver's assistance because they do not put them on manual transmission cars.

I never use automatic headlights, because i actually want them on in certain situations, not be a hazard to others because the car can't realize morning fog is dangerous without lights on. The car didn't realize rain during the day is dangerous without lights on.

One of the few "automatic" things developed in the last 20 years i do like? Automatic wipers! The Audi has never done a window fart because of that. No intermittent setting can match automatic wipers. Love it!

Edit: another thing I've complained about... paddle shifters on sports cars! I don't want video game shifting! There's zero point to it. If you paddle shift the automatic transmission, you take away performance while still not getting the manual transmission experience anyway. Give me a manual transmission with a clutch and a stick or take it away. I don't want it.

Lol just today I tried to move the Rav4 up a few feet into the shade. I moved about a foot before it automatically slammed on the brakes cause dear Lord the door was open.

Auto headlights are fine as long as you have a manual switch. I have a running light out so I always turn on my headlights so it doesn't look stupid lol.

But hey I still have a cassette deck in my rig so nothing is really automatic.

I do remember my BMW 318i having a cool feature where it was impossible to lock your keys in the car. I forget how that all worked though.

 

[TaLoN]

Lol just today I tried to move the Rav4 up a few feet into the shade. I moved about a foot before it automatically slammed on the brakes cause dear Lord the door was open.

In the late 90s- early 2000s my '94 Ford Probe GT, the door latch would freeze up in below zero f overnight temps. I'd be leaving work at 6am, get in the car, but the latch wouldn't move back when shutting the door, so it would just hang open no matter how hard i tried to slam it shut.

Figured, f*** it, need to get home and sleep, so I'd just start driving while holding it closed until the heat inside the car loosened it about 5-10 minutes into the drive, then I'd shut it while on the highway.

 

[82Ninety42011]

The fake sound ruins it before I even see the car. If it's electric leave it silent. It's like a fake hood scoop what's the point.

 

[HansonBro]

In the late 90s- early 2000s my '94 Ford Probe GT, the door latch would freeze up in below zero f overnight temps. I'd be leaving work at 6am, get in the car, but the latch wouldn't move back when shutting the door, so it would just hang open no matter how hard i tried to slam it shut.

Figured, f*** it, need to get home and sleep, so I'd just start driving while holding it closed until the heat inside the car loosened it about 5-10 minutes into the drive, then I'd shut it while on the highway.

Funny you brought up the Probe. My brother also had a 94 gt. One of Ford's better products. I liked that car

My buddy also had an 89 I think with the digital dash...we were watching it roll over to 200,000km and it went back to 100,000 LMAO

 

[TaLoN]

Funny you brought up the Probe. My brother also had a 94 gt. One of Ford's better products. I liked that car

My buddy also had an 89 I think with the digital dash...we were watching it roll over to 200,000km and it went back to 100,000 LMAO

Yeah, the late Probe years, those really were excellent cars for their time. The early Probe version in 89? Not so much.

 

[HansonBro]

Yeah, the late Probe years, those really were excellent cars for their time. The early Probe version in 89? Not so much.

Ya the 89 fealt like how id picture a Delorian or a crappier version of a base Corsica. Or even a bit of a Fiero fealing

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Automatic transmissions, I've complained about not wanting that since 1997. I have only owned manual transmission cars since that time.

If you've read my posts here, you'd have seen both.

I'll address this later on...I usually don't want automatics. Usually.

Lane assist, thankfully no manual transmission car even gets that option as enhanced cruise control options only come with automatic transmission cars.

I actually think there are some manuals with lane assist but I might be mistaken.

I have a real backup camera but no lane assist on my 6-speed car.

Self driving cars... just shoot me now. I enjoy driving, the last thing i want is my own car taking that joy away from me.

I work in tech. Anyone that tells you that reliable, safe, actual self-driving cars are coming anytime soon is full of shit. Also, if anyone actually wants a self-driving car in the first place...may I ask why?

One of the few "automatic" things developed in the last 20 years i do like? Automatic wipers! The Audi has never done a window fart because of that. No intermittent setting can match automatic wipers. Love it!

I can solve your wiper problems another way: move to Florida. No windshield wiper set on Earth can stand up to a Florida downpour (they just make it worse.)

Edit: another thing I've complained about... paddle shifters on sports cars! I don't want video game shifting! There's zero point to it. If you paddle shift the automatic transmission, you take away performance while still not getting the manual transmission experience anyway. Give me a manual transmission with a clutch and a stick or take it away. I don't want it.

Okay, this is where I disagree.

I love manual transmissions and, like you, daily-drive a manual year-round. I prefer to drive manuals over automatics on the street the vast majority of the time, unless I'm 1) going to an area where I'll have to hill-start a lot; and/or 2) going to be in stop and go the whole time. It makes me pay more attention and it's simply a lot more fun and engaging. To me, automatic transmissions on the street are often, but not always, boring.

However, at the track (where, for me, forced induction of any kind is the biggest no-no)...if I'm being competitive I personally don't want to have to worry about heel-and-toeing, etc. It takes my focus away from driving itself and when you're on the track you must have less than zero focus loss at all times. Modern dual-clutch automatics, like the INCREDIBLE Porsche PDK for example, can rip off lightning fast gear changes but still have driver engagement (obviously not as much as a 3-pedal vehicle, though.) While some of these autos are incredibly smart and can anticipate when you want to drop down a gear or two, there's no substitute for a driver's brain on a track and it's so easy to drop down 2 or 3 gears at a time to find your power band or to rapidly upshift to stabilize the ride.

It also depends on your engine type. You have a GT500, which has tall gearing and explosive torque so you don't need to shift all the time. The opposite would be like a Honda S2000, where the top of 1st gear is like 30 mph, 2nd is like 50 mph, etc...the gears are so damn short (and the engine so lacking in power unless you're near redline) that you're shifting all the damn time when aggressively driving. Both cars have their place, and the S2000 is actually a f***ing pleasure and a half to drive on an empty winding road, but I have problems with both cars in a track setting. With the GT500, do I trust myself to not either shred that clutch to shit or to kill myself getting distracted during heel-toeing due to the live rear axle? With the S2000, I'm spending more time shifting than actually racing.

I fully admit to being the weirdo here, seeing as a lot of people like auto on the road and manual on the track, but I am indeed the opposite. Auto on the road is generally too boring, manual on the track gives me too many things to worry about at speed. But there are exceptions...mainly in the realm of cars that I cannot afford.

 

[TaLoN]

I'll address this later on...I usually don't want automatics. Usually.

I actually think there are some manuals with lane assist but I might be mistaken.

I have a real backup camera but no lane assist on my 6-speed car.

I work in tech. Anyone that tells you that reliable, safe, actual self-driving cars are coming anytime soon is full of shit. Also, if anyone actually wants a self-driving car in the first place...may I ask why?


I can solve your wiper problems another way: move to Florida. No windshield wiper set on Earth can stand up to a Florida downpour (they just make it worse.)

Okay, this is where I disagree.

I love manual transmissions and, like you, daily-drive a manual year-round. I prefer to drive manuals over automatics on the street the vast majority of the time, unless I'm 1) going to an area where I'll have to hill-start a lot; and/or 2) going to be in stop and go the whole time. It makes me pay more attention and it's simply a lot more fun and engaging. To me, automatic transmissions on the street are often, but not always, boring.

However, at the track (where, for me, forced induction of any kind is the biggest no-no)...if I'm being competitive I personally don't want to have to worry about heel-and-toeing, etc. It takes my focus away from driving itself and when you're on the track you must have less than zero focus loss at all times. Modern dual-clutch automatics, like the INCREDIBLE Porsche PDK for example, can rip off lightning fast gear changes but still have driver engagement (obviously not as much as a 3-pedal vehicle, though.) While some of these autos are incredibly smart and can anticipate when you want to drop down a gear or two, there's no substitute for a driver's brain on a track and it's so easy to drop down 2 or 3 gears at a time to find your power band or to rapidly upshift to stabilize the ride.

It also depends on your engine type. You have a GT500, which has tall gearing and explosive torque so you don't need to shift all the time. The opposite would be like a Honda S2000, where the top of 1st gear is like 30 mph, 2nd is like 50 mph, etc...the gears are so damn short (and the engine so lacking in power unless you're near redline) that you're shifting all the damn time when aggressively driving. Both cars have their place, and the S2000 is actually a f***ing pleasure and a half to drive on an empty winding road, but I have problems with both cars in a track setting. With the GT500, do I trust myself to not either shred that clutch to shit or to kill myself getting distracted during heel-toeing due to the live rear axle? With the S2000, I'm spending more time shifting than actually racing.

I fully admit to being the weirdo here, seeing as a lot of people like auto on the road and manual on the track, but I am indeed the opposite. Auto on the road is generally too boring, manual on the track gives me too many things to worry about at speed. But there are exceptions...mainly in the realm of cars that I cannot afford.

I can understand wanting performance above all at the track in a competitive situation. To me, that's not the issue. The issue is on the street. My Shelby is a convertible, no roll cage, so not even permitted on the track.