Do you classify Mike Vernon as a legit Hall of Famer?

[Big Phil]

Always a touchy topic with him. Off the bat you think "oh yeah" then you get into your "what if" thinking when he was in Calgary and remember only his playoff failures. Look, a lot of Flames blew those first round losses in the '90s not just Vernon. But lets analyze his career first.

Record: 385-273-92. Playoffs 77-56

Two Cups. One in '89 and one in '97

Played in 4 Cup finals. Never played for Canada Cup teams

Second team all-star in '89. Led the league in wins in '89

Conn Smythe Trophy in '97


So all of that is pretty good IMO. I mean off the top off my head I cant think of a goalie that won a Cup(s) and was named to an all-star team to not make the Hall. Some have only done one or the other. Cheevers jsut won his two Cups and Giacomin was named to the 1st or 2nd all-star team 5 times. Vernon has both, plus a Conn Smythe, plus 385 wins. When you say it that way how can you not put him in?

Then again you have to look at his consistency, and this is what bothers me the most about Vernon. He was great in leading Calgary to the Cup finals in '86. He wouldnt have been a bad choice for the Conn Smythe in '89. Remember how he shut the door on the Canucks in OT? But then you have his '90 collapse by letting a floater into the net that eliminates the Flames followed by some questionable goaltending in the '91 and '94 playoffs. There are far too many times when you see visions of Vernon getting beat for an overtime goal (Gretzky '88) and I think that hurts him.

He then lost the '95 Cup finals against a pop-gun offence in New Jersey. Then he came out of nowhere in the '97 finals and won the Conn Smythe, although it wasnt a lock. He then disapeared pretty much for the last 5 years of his career. What bugged you about him was his lack of stringing together a few great seasons. Luongo for example is a guy who is stringing a bunch of elite seasons in a row which make you forget his Florida debacle. Vernon doesnt have that. There arent 5 years in a row where he was spectacular. In other words, we can induct him and have a lot of good tings to say about him, or we dont and there isnt a huge fuss

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[pitseleh]

I don't think he is, personally. Considering great goalies like Lorne Chabot, Chuck Rayner, and Al Rollins aren't HoF'ers, you have to think that the induction committee holds goalies to a higher standard than position players.

Look at a guy like Normie Smith - two Cups, a First-Team All-Star selection/Vezina, and likely a Conn Smythe had they been awarded back then - and he's not even close. Vernon's in a similar boat but has a bunch more seasons, but nothing that adds on to his resume to make him stand out.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

if we let Vernon into the hall does that make Khabibulin a hall of famer? Why not Sean Burke while we are at it.

 

[MadArcand]

1 questionable Conn Smythe on a stacked team. One 2nd all-star on yet another very strong team. Pretty much nothing in between. To me it seems that his successes depended greatly on the quality of the team he was on. And team success shouldn't define a player's quality. So, no, nowhere near HoF.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Close but not quite

 

[Badger Bob]

1 questionable Conn Smythe on a stacked team. One 2nd all-star on yet another very strong team. Pretty much nothing in between. To me it seems that his successes depended greatly on the quality of the team he was on. And team success shouldn't define a player's quality. So, no, nowhere near HoF.

Detroit got arrogant about goaltending. They figured that they could put just about anybody in net and win...and they did with Chris Osgood. That plan was not going to work again. So they tried it with a goalie who DID start for Team Canada in Curtis Joseph (look how well that turned out). Finally, they were able to replicate some of that success with the aging Dominik Hasek. In that light, Vernon deserves full credit for the job he did for them that year.

Getting back to the discussion at hand...Is he HOF caliber? 300+ wins with 2 different teams and that Conn Smyth are legitimate qualifications. Some of those post-season performances count more against him than anything else, but that's more of a matter for Flames fans to debate.

If he got in, the selection might be somewhat controversial, but it wouldn't be a miscarriage of justice if he came up short either. The comparison with Sean Burke was just silly. He was definitely at least a cut above types like Burke, Osgood, Felix Potvin and probably Cujo too.

 

[MadArcand]

He was definitely at least a cut above types like Burke, Osgood, Felix Potvin and probably Cujo too.

Purely on skill level, he wasn't 'a cut above' either Cujo or Burke, in fact I'd argue he was below them.

Burke is criminally underrated - he never had even a decent team in front of him, yet posted some great numbers and was far, far more important to his teams than Vernon ever was. Burke carried teams like Whalers and Coyotes and was a great goalie on those weak teams. Vernon played for powerhouses, yet had significantly worse stats than Burke.

Lucking out by playing on great teams does not a great goalie make.

 

[V-2 Schneider]

Vernon is in the same camp at Rogie Vachon.Both played big when it mattered most.

 

[Badger Bob]

Vernon played for powerhouses, yet had significantly worse stats than Burke.

Vernon was with Detroit when they were an emerging powerhouse. That's starting to get into semantics though. However, his workload increased in San Jose, before they joined the league elite. His numbers were similar to what he accomplished with the Red Wings.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players/data08/00005568.html

Also, Vernon deserves extremely high marks for this:



You probably have a valid point about Burke being criminally underrated. By the same token, Cujo has been vastly overrated. He got the nod for Team Canada to placate Leafs Nation. He was given every opportunity in Detroit, but came up short.

 

[MadArcand]

Also, Vernon deserves extremely high marks for this:

Oh, very much so.

 

[Wings4Life]

Very good goalie but overall too inconsistent. And to say he played on stacked teams would be a fair point.

97 Conn Smythe was pretty questionable, considering the excellent defenders and defensive forwards in front of him. IMO in '89 he deserved the Smythe more than in '97.

I would say he is borderline, maybe 3rd or 4th ballot at best.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Wouldn't get my vote.

 

[seventieslord]

if we let Vernon into the hall does that make Khabibulin a hall of famer? Why not Sean Burke while we are at it.

Not at all. Are you suggesting they have similar credentials to Vernon? Because they don't.

 

[Puck Dogg]

To my perspective he should have retired earlier so I would have better memories of him. In my books Vernon was a decent goalie at his prime. The type that is capable of winning you a Cup if the guys in front of him were good enough. Would I consider him a Hall of Famer? No.

Nobody ever thought him as a Vezina- type of goalie. This is why I would like to see only the true legends to be chosen to HOF. There are many equally good ones as Vernon that do not deserve the honor.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

Vernon accomplished more during his era than 95% of his fellow netminders, and he was able to make a run to the finals as a 23 year old and as a 34 year old. In addition to his accomplishments listed by posters above, he also was in the running for the Vezina six times.

His career playoff record is excellent, if you look at the numbers:

14 playoff seasons
138 games - 77 wins - 56 losses - 2.68 gaa - .896 sv%

Four trips to the finals: how many goalies have done that in the past 25 years?

He should be seriously considered for inclusion in the Hall.

 

[Al Bundy*]

One thing I have to say about Vernon:

Never has a goalie's 300th win been so overlooked more than his, IMO.

When other goalies got their 300th win, it was the main headline of the game.

But it didn't happen with Vernon. WHY?

 

[MXD]

One thing I have to say about Vernon:

Never has a goalie's 300th win been so overlooked more than his, IMO.

When other goalies got their 300th win, it was the main headline of the game.

But it didn't happen with Vernon. WHY?

THe same thing happened with Andy Moog.

 

[norrisnick]

THe same thing happened with Andy Moog.

Moog was the worst guy on the ice for his 300th win too?

 

[Snap Wilson]

He'll make it in eventually, when the 1980s generation of players is old and senile and therefore on the selection committee. Then we'll start seeing borderline 80s players inducted by the carload. And you know what? All of us old senile fans will be screaming about how great they were and that it's about damned time while drooling into our tapioca cups.

I wouldn't vote him in either, but he's right at the top of the "borderline" list.

 

[PACaptain]

The Cups and the Conn Smythe make me say "yes". Maybe not right away but he was a tough little guy who came up big when it counted.