Do we need to change the benchmark for elite offensive production?

[Cloned]

Every decade or so, the benchmark seems to change.

For the last decade (more or less), the benchmark was going point-per-game.

Personally, based on the last three seasons, I think going point-per-game is less impressive than it used to be. The real elite players this season are a fair bit above PPG pace.

Going PPG this year feels like a 60 point season from four years ago. Good, but not elite production.

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[Iapyi]

Hockey constantly and consistently goes in cycles.

 

[AUAIOMRN]

Luckily this isn't something that requires a specific definition, so we don't need to worry about it.

 

[txpd]

I think we need to see how coaching adjusts to these new levels of scoring.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Same as it always is, judge on where they finish in the league in goals/points, not on the raw totals.

Era vs era, totals lie, rankings don't

 

[JoemAvs]

IMO the more interesting topic is why scoring is up. Is it the goalie equipment changes or the rule changes?
Or is the new crop of talent that has come up recently ( McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Pastrnak, etc) just that much more talented ?
Or is the recent trend to go away from size and strength towards skill and speed a reason why defending has gotten harder and worse overall? Has life gotten easier especially for star players because of that?


I have a feeling it will normalize over the next few years. But yeah right now putting up 82 points does not put you into the elite conversation as a forward. You probably have to atleast get 90 and flirt with 100 a couple of times in your career if you want to be considered elite...

 

[Cloned]

I think we need to see how coaching adjusts to these new levels of scoring.

I'm not sure it can (fully).

The issues seem to stem from things out of a coach's direct control, like cap structure forcing younger defenders into the lineup, reduced size of goalie equipment, players generally being faster and more skilled than before, etc.

 

[Cloned]

IMO the more interesting topic is why scoring is up. Is it the goalie equipment changes or the rule changes?
Or is the new crop of talent that has come up recently ( McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Pastrnak, etc) just that much more talented ?
Or is the recent trend to go away from size and strength towards skill and speed a reason why defending has gotten harder and worse overall? Has life gotten easier especially for star players because of that?


I have a feeling it will normalize over the next few years. But yeah right now putting up 82 points does not put you into the elite conversation as a forward. You probably have to atleast get 90 and flirt with 100 a couple of times in your career if you want to be considered elite...

As an example for this year, I think you have to score 100 points (or be on a reasonable pace to score 100 points if you were injured for a significant part of the season).

 

[Cloned]

Same as it always is, judge on where they finish in the league in goals/points, not on the raw totals.

Era vs era, totals lie, rankings don't

I think the problem with this line of thinking is it assumes that there are roughly the same amount of elite offensive players in the league from era to era. A player ranked 10th in league scoring this year might have 100+ points and be an elite offensive player by most metrics, but you compare his ranking of 10th to another 10th ranked player from another era and it might actually devalue his production.

 

[JoemAvs]

One thing that is interesting that if you sort by PPG, McDavid/Draisaitl are #1/#2, MacKinnon/Rantanen are #3/4 and Marchand/Pastrnak are #5/#6.

While general scoring seems up over the last few years, we certainly have seen the advent of superduos/lines and that might be reflected a bit in the ridiculous scoring pace a few guys are on...

 

[Hattrickkane88]

I think the change we need to make is stop caring so much about ppg and care more about pps ( point per season ) .

Scoring is up but the league has also became
safer and teams have the technology of 2019 to keep their players healthy.

No longer do i consider 69 points in 60 games a ppg season, if you don't hit 82 points then you were not a ppg player considering YOUR team that PAYS you played 82 games not 60 games.

So my point is that if you hit 82+ points then i'm going to credit you with the credit i gave the guys in the past because i won't fault them for playing in these circumstances.

For those guys who can't put a season together even in 2019 and go 69 points in 60 games i do agree we need to tighten up the reqs.

 

[Ezekial]

As of right now there are 23 above point per game players in the NHL. Less than 1 per team. It's still impressive.

E: forgot above

 

[Cloned]

As of right now there are 23 point per game players in the NHL. Less than 1 per team. It's still impressive.

Are there, or would you consider all 23, elite offensive players in the game?

 

[Bruins4Lifer]

edit: I'm in the wrong thread.

But current goals per game is the highest since 2005-06, where there was like 25 players with 80 points.
So definitely less impressive to be a PPG player compared to 4-6 years ago when like probably less than 10 players had 80 points?

 

[Ezekial]

Are there, or would you consider all 23, elite offensive players in the game?

Looking at their names, yea, basically all of them are elite offensive players outside of Dougie Hamilton.

 

[Cloned]

Looking at their names, yea, basically all of them are elite offensive players outside of Dougie Hamilton.

Really? I wouldn't consider Perron or Guentzel (for example) an elite offensive player. Very good, but not elite.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

I noticed this a couple of seasons ago. It coincided with the slashing crackdown but didn't really effect league wide scoring as a whole. The amount of 0.9ish points per game guys went up a ton from 16-17 to 17-18. I think it's the skilled players having more freedom to make plays with slashing being more penalized.

 

[Ezekial]

Really? I wouldn't consider Perron or Guentzel (for example) an elite offensive player. Very good, but not elite.

You're right, 40 goal scorers aren't elite offensive players.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

Really? I wouldn't consider Perron or Guentzel (for example) an elite offensive player. Very good, but not elite.

Guentzel is elite

 

[Cloned]

You're right, 40 goal scorers aren't elite offensive players.

Fair enough on Guentzel, but Perron? JT Miller? David Krejci?

These are guys that would have scored 55-65 points in years past but are primed to go 80-ish points this year.

 

[Ezekial]

Fair enough on Guentzel, but Perron? JT Miller? David Krejci?

Sometimes players that play with elite offensive players get more points than they should, Perron is more of an anomaly but he has 139 points in his last 155 regular season games, so he's been pretty good the last 3 seasons.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

One thing that is interesting that if you sort by PPG, McDavid/Draisaitl are #1/#2, MacKinnon/Rantanen are #3/4 and Marchand/Pastrnak are #5/#6.

While general scoring seems up over the last few years, we certainly have seen the advent of superduos/lines and that might be reflected a bit in the ridiculous scoring pace a few guys are on...

Yeah obviously there’s a lot of factors but a lot of teams are loading up on one super line. Earlier in the decade teams were more concerned with spreading out the scoring threats. For example Zetterberg and Datsyuk rarely played on the same line in their later years. I’m glad we’re seeing talent with talent again.

 

[Cloned]

Sometimes players that play with elite offensive players get more points than they should, Perron is more of an anomaly but he has 139 points in his last 155 regular season games, so he's been pretty good the last 3 seasons.

That's exactly my point though. The real elite offensive players are driving well beyond PPG, and their beneficiaries, while still good offensive players, shouldn't be considered elite just because they're hitting PPG as a result of increased league scoring.

 

[John Johnson]

Players who get 80+ points over a full season are still considered elite because a lot of players still can't reach that mark. Players who are PPG 25-30 games into the season are usually just riding hot streaks or playing with other elite players who bump their totals up. Usually they regulate their totals over the year to more of a 60 point season which is considered very good and not elite.

 

[txpd]

I'm not sure it can (fully).

The issues seem to stem from things out of a coach's direct control, like cap structure forcing younger defenders into the lineup, reduced size of goalie equipment, players generally being faster and more skilled than before, etc.

No. Teams are playing different. The Capitals for one are playing a completely different system than they did during the Trotz years thru last season. Its a 5 man attack with the defense fully engaged. This is why Carlson's numbers have jumped like they have.

The league has taken a step forward in strategy offensively and the coaches are working on tying that up. Traditionally, the league gets a little tighter in 20 game increments. I expect the same this season.