Do the wild over-emphasize 2 way play?

[Al Lagoon]

We've seen it all before - Wild get a goal scorer who production plummets once they don the Wild sweater: Heatley, Moulson, Vanek, Kobasew, etc. Two-way hockey is fine and dandy for a team with limited offensive options, but if you have the guns, why not use them.

The Wild looked awesome earlier in the season, and I believe it was from playing offensive hockey, smothering opponents with pressure, playing as a 5 man unit .

I was thrilled at the start of the season to see pk'ers getting after the puck holders in the zone - that has disappeared.

Of late, it seems they have gotten a lot more conservative, and the results have been less impressive.

Are Yeo and the staff overthinking this? Sheeeit, there is more offensive talent on this team than ever. I think they need to respect their opponents less and get after it the way they were at the start of the season.

Yeo talks again and again about "playing their game." What is that game exactly?

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[tomgilbertfan]

Heatley had a great first year with us. 24 goals, 29 assists amidst the myriad of injuries we suffered and he played well defensively that year. But he kept getting slower. I mean since 2009 his production was plummeting.

Kobasew isn't even in the NHL anymore, couldn't work on the Avs, couldn't work on the Penguins.

Those two wouldn't have produced whether or not they were on the Wild or not.

Nino is on pace for around 35+ goals (however, with an unsustainable shooting%), Parise too. Pominville had a solid 30+30 year last year, and has a shooting% less than half his career average this year.

Even with the struggles that Vanek and Pominville and Koivu and Granlund have had putting the puck in the net we're still 11th in the NHL in goals/game.

The Wild have had bad luck in picking up players that could score on their previous team. If Heatley or Kobasew or Setoguchi or Havlat went on to have a succesful season after their stint with the Wild I could see your point but none of them did. And I don't believe that the Wild somehow absolutely killed their careers, especially young guys like Seto and Kobasew that had multiple other shots at the NHL.

 

[Gaps]

Yep, Heatley was already declining when he came to Minnesota and isn't doing any better now. Seto's fallen off the map completely since the Wild traded him. Vanek is playing his first season in the West, which is probably a contributing factor in his goal drought. He can't get away here with the same things he could get away with in the East. It was more or less the same with Moulson. Players like them don't fit all that well in the West.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I think Minnesota fans overvalue two-way play (Koivu comes to mind). I also think that some part of Lemaire's legacy is still ghosting around with the organization. Ultimately though, the team models itself after the players that are within the organization. It's going to take years to change that - and it doesn't help that the GM continues to patter along with the same sort of mindset. When you take guys like Gabriel over Bjorkstrand or guys like Bulmer, Bussieres, Tuch, year after year and trade for a guy like Coyle; physical guys that aren't exactly dynamic players but add some heaviness and aren't known for their offense, then you are going to have a low scoring, defensive first team.

If that's the game they want to play and are modeling their organization after, then by all means they should continue. But don't kvetch about low scoring and lack of goals and make crappy trades like Kobasew for a 2nd and draft guys like Bussieres in the 2nd round. Stick with an identity and keep it; don't force players outside their comfort zone.

If we win 50 games 1-0, who the hell cares if we have 2 or 4 20+ goal scorers. All that matters is the win column. If we are going to use Koivu as our 1st line center or build the team around him, then we should get better two-way forwards on this team.

 

[DeuceMN]

You present an interesting question.

Some of your facts to support it, well, they're not the most compelling.

But I see where you're going with it and it is a thought which I have wondered from time to time myself.

Honestly, I have no idea. Maybe. We do emphasize it a lot. We have good goals against this year and our goals for, I am still waiting to see more on.

Seeing us still play too safe when there's ten left in a game and we're down two, is kind of frustrating.

There has been a fall back to more of our previous way of play over these last few weeks. I don't know if that's on the players, coaching staff, schedule, all the above?

I know Nashville is where we hoped to be right now and we are where we, and many other thought Nashville would be.

I mean their forward corp. is not the scariest group as a whole.

And honestly, I'm not really sure what our game is yet either.

I know what the Blues are, even though I hate them.
Hawks, Kings, Bruins, Ducks, I know what their games are. Ours is not quite so defined yet.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Much simpler explanation. Goal scorers must be drafted, because they peak before they hit free agency. Wild hasn't really drafted elite goal scorer other than Gaborik. When we acquire "goal scorers" like Parise, Vanek, Moulson, Heatley, Parrish, etc., they are already on the decline. Rolston was the one exception.

That's why guys like Nino and Zucker are so important to the future of this team.

 

[Nharris31]

Much simpler explanation. Goal scorers must be drafted, because they peak before they hit free agency. Wild hasn't really drafted elite goal scorer other than Gaborik. When we acquire "goal scorers" like Parise, Vanek, Moulson, Heatley, Parrish, etc., they are already on the decline. Rolston was the one exception.

That's why guys like Nino and Zucker are so important to the future of this team.

Parise seems to be fine. Pominville didn't have trouble last year either.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Parise seems to be fine. Pominville didn't have trouble last year either.

That doesn't refute my point. In fact, that proves my point.

We are already watching the decline of Pominville this season. Hoping he can slow it down a bit more.

And Parise is also on the decline, but at a much slower pace. He'll be an effective player for a very long time, but he's not going to get 40 goals for us.

 

[Nharris31]

That doesn't refute my point. In fact, that proves my point.

We are already watching the decline of Pominville this season. Hoping he can slow it down a bit more.

And Parise is also on the decline, but at a much slower pace. He'll be an effective player for a very long time, but he's not going to get 40 goals for us.

Pominville will be fine he had 9 shots against Dallas. Well ya not many players in the league score 40 goals in a season. I can't wait until you complain when Zucker and Niederreiter stop shooting at there pace.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

You'd hope the decline of our older players can be offset by the growth of younger ones and as those rates come closer and closer together hopefully you can use the younger guys into bigger and bigger roles. That's why you want Vets on the team. Obviously after a certain age guys are going to start to lose their abilities.

Although it can be tough to manage the egos of the older players and it can be tough for hockey players to admit that they can't do the things they once could, but that's up to the coach to manage that dynamic.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Exactly. I wasn't being negative. But rather pointing out that goal scorers generally peak earlier (22-26) than other kind of players (i.e. defensemen, power forwards, goalies, etc.) If the Wild aren't acquiring goal scorers until after that age range, they aren't getting them at their best.

Now, name the goal scorers the Wild have had in the age range of 22-26?

Gaborik. And.......nobody until Nino and Zucker.

 

[Nharris31]

I know they decline I just don't over react when players have track record of producing. When they aren't.

 

[Jarick]

The Wild are 2nd in the league in 5v5 shots for per 60 minutes and 7th in 5v5 goals for per 60 minutes. They are getting chances and burying a number of them. Right now the PP is terrible, otherwise they'd be an elite offensive team.

 

[TheTimeKnife]

Personally I love our 2 way game, it's an identity of this team that we play good defensive hockey. Even when Yeo employs a free wheeling style for a match up, our guys play well in our own zone. Look how Zucker got dragged through the mud until he could play a 2 way game, the kid is amazing now. Looks like parise lite.

With the trap, and our history of coaches employing defensive systems. We are a lot like Nashville in that our franchise is notorious for a defensive style of hockey. It's not necessarily a bad thing, hell if anything teams with good defense consistently do well. The west is definitely a tougher conference, you can argue about it being better, but to compete you need to be able to match other teams hard defensive style.

 

[Kari Takko]

No, the Wild don't put too much emphasis on 2way play. The beautiful thing about this year, so far, is the emphasis put on 2way play for our dmen. They're being encouraged to jump up into the play and, as a result, a ton of offense is being created from our blueliners.

 

[NHLPodium]

Vanek is playing his first season in the West, which is probably a contributing factor in his goal drought. He can't get away here with the same things he could get away with in the East.

You make it sound like he only ever played against eastern teams.

 

[Gaps]

You make it sound like he only ever played against eastern teams.

It's both the teams he's played on and the teams he's played against. Teams play differently in the East, including the teams he played on. Look at the Oilers: they suck, but chances are they would suck less in the East because they're built like an Eastern team. I don't think the Wild are the only Western team where Vanek would have trouble putting the puck in right now.

 

[tomgilbertfan]

It's both the teams he's played on and the teams he's played against. Teams play differently in the East, including the teams he played on. Look at the Oilers: they suck, but chances are they would suck less in the East because they're built like an Eastern team. I don't think the Wild are the only Western team where Vanek would have trouble putting the puck in right now.

The Oilers are 0-12-3 against the West but they are 6-3-1 against the East.

 

[Al Lagoon]

No, the Wild don't put too much emphasis on 2way play. The beautiful thing about this year, so far, is the emphasis put on 2way play for our dmen. They're being encouraged to jump up into the play and, as a result, a ton of offense is being created from our blueliners.

That's a great point - 2 way play from the d'men has been a large part of their success. I wasn't really thinking of the defensemen when I posted, but yeah, well said .

 

[thestonedkoala]

No, the Wild don't put too much emphasis on 2way play.

Yes they do; most of their prospects are considered good to elite defensive minded forwards.

 

[MuckOG]

The Wild don't emphasize two-way play any more than the Kings or Blues do.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The Wild don't emphasize two-way play any more than the Kings or Blues do.

I don't know about that...Blues and Kings have actually developed 30 goal players and elite offensive talent. Minnesota has yet to do that. Well...Gaborik but that was a long, long time ago.

 

[Ban Hammered]

Emphasizing 2 way play does not mean someone can't score 30 goals. You are so hung up on developing one but forget that Poms hit 30 and Parise certainly would have without injury. So we didn't "develop" them, they still did it in this system.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

Hmm...have the Kings actually 'developed' any 30 goal scorers? Kopitar sometimes?

 

[thestonedkoala]

Emphasizing 2 way play does not mean someone can't score 30 goals. You are so hung up on developing one but forget that Poms hit 30 and Parise certainly would have without injury. So we didn't "develop" them, they still did it in this system.

We had to trade for Poms and sign Parise (which I won't argue was or wasn't a good idea) because we couldn't develop any goal scorers. This limits Minnesota severely. Furthermore, it shows what type of players Minnesota tends to lean toward when they draft.

Hmm...have the Kings actually 'developed' any 30 goal scorers? Kopitar sometimes?

Brown and Kopitar...