Line Combos: Do the Leafs have too many offensive defencemen?

[Commander Clueless]

I'm not looking at cap hit so much as the full dollar value of the contract.

Liles is more expensive now than he was last year.

Maybe on contract length but his cap hit is actually quite good for a player that brings what he does. That is assuming he regains his pre-concussion form from last year.

Well Phaneuf is known to be erratic defensively and that's why he's always had a defensive defenceman play with him the NHL whether it be Robyn Regher or Keith Aulie or Carl Gunnarsson. Most coaches seem to like to insulate Phaneuf's sloppy defensive play with a stay at home player (which Gardiner, Rielly, and Liles are simply not).

I don't think I'd call Phaneuf's defensive play sloppy necessarily. He does like to join the rush however and, while we see it less and less he is still prone to the big, yet stupid hit on occasion. When Phaneuf plays defense though, he is actually quite solid. Gunnarsson is his ideal partner as he plays strong defense and can pass and skate the puck effectively as well.

Maybe Rielly gets the third pairing minutes. What if he is actually as good as the hype though? What if he forces the issue to get more minutes because he is that good?

He shouldn't be playing with Phaneuf or Gardiner.

Would Gardiner and his agent be pleased with third pairing minutes?

No and based on last year the Leafs wouldn't be pleased with third pairing minutes for Gardiner either. If Rielly is as good as the hype then a trade is forced I think.

I like Liles a lot but I wouldn't be opposed to trading him for a defensive type of similar calibre.

 

[ACC1224]

Great strength to have, certainly nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Drew311]

It seems no one even considers having Rielly in the AHL for a season. If he's not going to get solid minutes with the Leafs, there will be a great opportunity to play top pairing and power play minutes with the Marlies.

This is also a natural progression for an 18 year old kid. Get him used to playing with grown men before he's thrown into the NHL. Not every prospect has the mental ability to play in a top hockey market as a teenager. I don't think returning to the WHL is an option, he's just to good for junior hockey and he needs to play against stronger competition.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Going back to the OP:

We do have quite a few, but its obvious, that the Leafs future D
strategy is get the puck, out of the zone fast (among other tactics)

Also a stay at home, physical defenseman, is considered to be easier
to acquire or draft, than a PMD.

 

[Bomber0104]

Going back to the OP:

We do have quite a few, but its obvious, that the Leafs future D
strategy is get the puck, out of the zone fast (among other tactics)

Also a stay at home, physical defenseman, is considered to be easier
to acquire or draft, than a PMD.

Not too sure about that.

Good defensive defencemen are pretty valued to teams that have them and probably would cost the Leafs a pretty penny.

The last one they successfully drafted was Carl Gunnarsson and that was in 2006(?) with JFJ.

Might take a while to find another one. Hopefully Holzer is the real deal whenever he gets his opportunity with the big club when Komisarek is gone.

 

[Terrence]

It seems no one even considers having Rielly in the AHL for a season. If he's not going to get solid minutes with the Leafs, there will be a great opportunity to play top pairing and power play minutes with the Marlies.

This is also a natural progression for an 18 year old kid. Get him used to playing with grown men before he's thrown into the NHL. Not every prospect has the mental ability to play in a top hockey market as a teenager. I don't think returning to the WHL is an option, he's just to good for junior hockey and he needs to play against stronger competition.

If you're saying that he should go to the AHL and not the WHL, he can't. This year (if there is a season) and next, he can only play in the NHL or WHL.

 

[ULF_55]

Not too sure about that.

Good defensive defencemen are pretty valued to teams that have them and probably would cost the Leafs a pretty penny.

The last one they successfully drafted was Carl Gunnarsson and that was in 2006(?) with JFJ.

Might take a while to find another one. Hopefully Holzer is the real deal whenever he gets his opportunity with the big club when Komisarek is gone.

Tom Nilsson player of the game for Sweden today.

 

[ACC1224]

Going back to the OP:

We do have quite a few, but its obvious, that the Leafs future D
strategy is get the puck, out of the zone fast (among other tactics)

Also a stay at home, physical defenseman, is considered to be easier
to acquire or draft, than a PMD.

Yes, considerably easier to obtain. Hopefully an upgrade to Gunnarsson arrives if there is a season.

 

[namttebih]

Well even if we kept all four of those guys in even two years from now...that means you have to play two of those guys with one another.

Meaning some combination of:

Phaneuf - Gardiner
Phaneuf - Rielly
Phaneuf - Liles

etc. etc. etc.

I'm not so sure Randy Carlyle is going to like what he sees.

I don't think that it has to be one of those combos. It is probably going to be more of a 1 and 1a with the third pairing being the one to worry about.

Phaneuf/Gunner
Gards/Ranger
Rielly/Liles

Type of thing.

If Holtzer can play:

Phaneuf/Gunner
Gards/Ranger
Rielly/Holtzer
Liles

 

[The Blue Devil]

Why do I have a feeling that Leaf fans would be angry for a move like that. I would hope they wouldn't be resistant.

It depends who the center is, if it's an Eric Staal or a Malkin then no one would have beef with it.

 

[The Blue Devil]

It seems no one even considers having Rielly in the AHL for a season. If he's not going to get solid minutes with the Leafs, there will be a great opportunity to play top pairing and power play minutes with the Marlies.

This is also a natural progression for an 18 year old kid. Get him used to playing with grown men before he's thrown into the NHL. Not every prospect has the mental ability to play in a top hockey market as a teenager. I don't think returning to the WHL is an option, he's just to good for junior hockey and he needs to play against stronger competition.

He can't play AHL for 2 more years.

 

[Badger Mayhew*]

Not too sure about that.

Good defensive defencemen are pretty valued to teams that have them and probably would cost the Leafs a pretty penny.

The last one they successfully drafted was Carl Gunnarsson and that was in 2006(?) with JFJ.

Might take a while to find another one. Hopefully Holzer is the real deal whenever he gets his opportunity with the big club when Komisarek is gone.

I have faith in Gunnarsson/Nilsson/Percy as a defensive core moving forward. All great in their own zone.

 

[Schenn]

Gunnarson has shown good defensive prowess, and I really hope Holzer can turn into a super reliable stay at home dman.

 

[Bomber0104]

I have faith in Gunnarsson/Nilsson/Percy as a defensive core moving forward. All great in their own zone.

Not saying all defensive defencemen develop like this but it took Gunnarsson 6 years from the time of being drafted to being a reliable everyday player for the Leafs.

Nilsson and Percy were recent picks and still have to learn the pro game, and beat out a regular.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Something I have been noticing as of late that is that the Leafs have an abundance of defencemen who are of the "offensive" type. These include defencemen who are on long-term contracts, very promising rookies, and also our team captain.


In other words, we have Phaneuf, Liles, Gardiner, and Rielly.


I really do wonder how we can work all of these players into a workable Randy Carlyle type of defence-first system of play.


Do you think we can envision having all four of these players on our blue line in the next few years?

Do you think we will simply have to trade one or two of them out of necessity? If so, who goes?


I'd really like to hear some ideas for Toronto's defence in the future!

I see no issue here. can't have to much scoring after all in it's basic form the goal is score more then the other team.

 

[Badger Mayhew*]

Not saying all defensive defencemen develop like this but it took Gunnarsson 6 years from the time of being drafted to being a reliable everyday player for the Leafs.

Nilsson and Percy were recent picks and still have to learn the pro game, and beat out a regular.

Well Gunnarsson was drafted in 2006 and made the Leafs for 2009. Three years to make the bigs. Played second/third pairing from 2009-2011 and then finally made the first pairing in the 2011-2012 season.

Good news is, all we really need are solid second/third pairing guys. We already have a defensive rock (Gunnarsson) playing the first pairing so there's no rush for Percy/Nilsson to take over that role. If they follow the Gunnarsson route they'll be ready for the 2014-2015 season and be very solid in their role (Gunnarsson was +8 in 09/10 and -2 in 10/11 on two awful teams).

Of course, these guys might not follow the Gunnarsson route, but it goes to show that there's some optimism to be found in our prospects.

 

[Bomber0104]

I see no issue here. can't have to much scoring after all in it's basic form the goal is score more then the other team.

Which obviously requires defencemen to prevent goals more than the other team's....

Which aren't really the forte's of these players.

 

[Badger Mayhew*]

Here's how I see it:

2013-2014:
Gunnarsson-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Komisarek
Liles-Ranger
(Holzer)

Not great, but I think expecting us to be great at all positions next year is hopelessly optimistic.

2014-2015:
Gunnarsson-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Nilsson
Rielly-Percy
(Ranger/Holzer)

Now we're starting to look good. If we need to, re-sign Komisarek for a cheap, one-year contract to play the bottom pairing. You'll notice Liles is gone too, maybe we can flip him for a defensively sound player as another option.

 

[FreeBird]

As Dreamkur said, Liles is on an expensive, long-term contract.

Not all that tradeable really, in my opinion, especially with questions concerning the concussion he received.

Well if they give two salary dumps it will allow Burke to get rid of two of his mistakes, Liles and Komisarek although the Grabovski contract may prove to be a real stinker going forward.

 

[FelixPotvin29]

The Liles hate is astonishing. He's a really solid player.

To be honest, I really don't want to rush Reilly. Heck, send him to the Juniors for another year. It won't hurt his development, especially since if Moose Jaw isn't good next year, they will trade him to a contender. Its like the Peitrangelo treatment. I believe it helped Peitrangelo a TON not rushing him the way St. Louis did. Could do wonders from Reilly as well.

Excellent post. Funny thing, what Bomber is saying about Liles is eerily similar to what people were saying about Beauchemin. We all know how that turned out.

People need to relax. Burke is one of the better GM's at trading and asset management. Liles is expected to contribute and if we have a "good" problem on our hands will be traded for other assets.

 

[LeafsNation75]

James Wisniewski Cap Hit: $5,500,000 for 6 years 27 pts

Christian Ehrhoff Cap Hit: $4,000,000 for 10 years 32 pts

Matt Carle Cap Hit: $5,500,000 for 6 years 38 pts

JML Cap Hit: $3,875,000 for 5 years 27 pts


Compared to other with a similar skill set I think JML took a pay cut on that contract for what he brings. (Also bare in mind JML suffered a concussion and missed significant time and when he did come back was a shadow of his former self.)

Actually Liles only signed a 4 year contract extension. So assuming he plays it out in Toronto he would at least be a Maple Leaf for 5 years, when you factor in the 1 year he had left on his old deal when he Colorado traded him.

 

[Bomber0104]

Excellent post. Funny thing, what Bomber is saying about Liles is eerily similar to what people were saying about Beauchemin. We all know how that turned out.

People need to relax. Burke is one of the better GM's at trading and asset management. Liles is expected to contribute and if we have a "good" problem on our hands will be traded for other assets.

What if Liles is our new Komisarek with this new contract and concussion?

People seem to overlook that.

 

[Mystifo]

What if Liles is our new Komisarek with this new contract and concussion?

People seem to overlook that.

What if Reimer backstops us to a 1st in the East? What if JVR becomes that #1C we need? I see what you are trying to say but it is rough to predict the future. One would assume that with a year off to fully recover and assuming he is keeping himself in shape Liles would come back as his regular self and until some credible source comes out and says otherwise I see no real reason to worry about his contract and peg him as the "next Komi".

 

[indigobuffalo]

Based on what Burke has been talking about for some time now regarding the evolution of the game since the 2005 lockout, it sounds as though the stay-at-home defenseman role is fading by the wayside.

The transition game and north-south attacking styles that have become so popular require a mobile defensive unit, and footspeed among defensemen is at an all-time high.

Hence, defensemen are being looked at (at least by Burke and Morrison and co.) in terms of their speed, mobility and hockey IQ.

Hence, Gardiner and Rielly are the somewhat "uncut" versions of this new defensive archetype. They need to find the happy-medium between "speed and mobility" and "strength and defensive acumen".

Gardiner is great at certain parts of the defensive game. He covers a large area with his speed and isn't easily deke'd out thanks to his mobility and dexterity, however, he is very soft and can't control the front of the net as effectively as Dion Phaneuf or Carl Gunnarsson.

However, both Rielly and Gardiner are young and still growing, so the hope is that these players can become better in the areas of weakness without regressing in their areas of strength.

Having "offensive" defensemen isn't a weakness, so long as only one of them joins the rush and the other has the sense to keep back and cover the counter-attack.

The other benefit of fast defensemen is that if they do get burned, they can get back in time to break-down opposing rushes.

 

[-DeMo-]

I see no issue here. can't have to much scoring after all in it's basic form the goal is score more then the other team.

in today's NHL it's more who ever gives up the least amount of goals wins. defense is more important in today's NHL then Offense.