Do the Habs go into the season "Goonless"? Part 2

[Kriss E]

Nothing was stopping Kreider.
We showed up unprepared for that series and it bit us big time.
The NYR's number one perogative was to run Price.
Why we didn't know that going in is beyond me.
Intimidation only works before the fact not after...
They beat us to the punch no pun intended.

They didn't beat us because they rushed the goalie. Tokarski played well enough for us to beat the NYR. We lost because they took full advantage of our sloppy transition and defensive game.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

What the heck are you talking about man? You said ''I'm sure Price will have a lot of fun when Lucic comes in his crease with Gilbert no where the be seen''. I pointed at the Boston series where Price excelled despite us scratching Murray. And then you flip flop onto the NYR series. Stop making a fool out of yourself.

Price has people rushing his crease every single game. Nothing new, and a Parros type will do nothing to prevent that.

As for Emelin, he did mistakes all year long. Blame it on fatigue all you want, but he did stupid mistakes consistently throughout the year.

You're the one trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Murray was essential to the success of Price and the team in general. My original argument was that 6 puck-moving, non-physical types are only going to take you that far.

 

[Kriss E]

You're the one trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Murray was essential to the success of Price and the team in general. My original argument was that 6 puck-moving, non-physical types are only going to take you that far.

I did not put any words in your mouth.
It depends on the quality of those puck movers.

 

[izzy75]

Nilan, who knows a thing or two about enforcing, claims Lucic will be targeting Emelin and Weisse. Tony Marinaro suggest they ignore Lucic. Nilan doesn't totally disagree, but does suggest that he would answer the bell.

Wonder how cream puffs on this site will respond should Emelin get his (metal) face caved in?

 

[AntonCH]

Nilan, who knows a thing or two about enforcing, claims Lucic will be targeting Emelin and Weisse. Tony Marinaro suggest they ignore Lucic. Nilan doesn't totally disagree, but does suggest that he would answer the bell.

Wonder how cream puffs on this site will respond should Emelin get his (metal) face caved in?

I hate to say it, but the best deterrent in this case is to send out a "physical" type player the first time Lucic steps on an ice surface we share with the bruins and pound him and pound him and pound him.
In this case being proactive is a lot better than reactive. No faxes no signalling intent just do it!
And i'm not into fighting as a part of hockey but there is a message that needs to be sent here

 

[hototogisu]

Wonder how cream puffs on this site will respond should Emelin get his (metal) face caved in?

Conversely, how happy would it make you to see Emelin get his face caved in just to be proven right?

What a life you must live.

 

[Rapala]

They didn't beat us because they rushed the goalie. Tokarski played well enough for us to beat the NYR. We lost because they took full advantage of our sloppy transition and defensive game.

I agree we played a sloppy tired series but the true devastation happened in game one on home ice where we were utterly dominated. We never recovered despite Tokarski.

 

[Markowicz]

By goon-less, you mean go into the season with only players who can actually play hockey? I certainly hope so...

 

[Hoople]

I get the impression that Southern Hab believes that if a player has one sole skill, and you fit him in with others who have a different sole skill, then that's the way to build a contending team.

DD Passes, Murray hits, Parros fight etc. etc.

Here's an idea.

Formulate your own thoughts and ideas and then state them on a message board. Next, quit wasting time with useless posts as above stating what you think (incorrectly) I believe.

Thanks.

 

[sandysan]

Nilan, who knows a thing or two about enforcing, claims Lucic will be targeting Emelin and Weisse. Tony Marinaro suggest they ignore Lucic. Nilan doesn't totally disagree, but does suggest that he would answer the bell.

Wonder how cream puffs on this site will respond should Emelin get his (metal) face caved in?

I didnt hear nilan but Lucic is going to go after emelin regardless. He's going to run him, he might even spear him in the jewels again, but I dont think that he's going to drop the gloves unless emelin gets all slashy again like he did for seguin.

Weise is another story, in my mind. My guess is that his dance card will have a couple of names on it, and as much as I like him as a 4th, he's overmatched and will expose the spuriousness of the arguments that he can " handle himself". He's even money with brad marchand and possibly louie erikson, but on the losing end of pretty much everything else.

but based on the post hand shake line, my guess is that napoleon shows up for game one, the teams are warned and its possible that settling of scores is delayed, but I really think that it is going to happen. if weise gets tuned, we will likely send in prust who is a slight underdog with lucic leaving us with tinordi.

 

[Hoople]

Conversely, how happy would it make you to see Emelin get his face caved in just to be proven right?

What a life you must live.

Wow.

I have seen some really bad posts in this thread but this one takes the award for first place.

Thanks for improving the tone of this thread by taking a wild-eyed personal jab at someone you disagree with.

 

[Hoople]

I didnt hear nilan but Lucic is going to go after emelin regardless. He's going to run him, he might even spear him in the jewels again, but I dont think that he's going to drop the gloves unless emelin gets all slashy again like he did for seguin.

Weise is another story, in my mind. My guess is that his dance card will have a couple of names on it, and as much as I like him as a 4th, he's overmatched and will expose the spuriousness of the arguments that he can " handle himself". He's even money with brad marchand and possibly louie erikson, but on the losing end of pretty much everything else.

but based on the post hand shake line, my guess is that napoleon shows up for game one, the teams are warned and its possible that settling of scores is delayed, but I really think that it is going to happen. if weise gets tuned, we will likely send in prust who is a slight underdog with lucic leaving us with tinordi.

That wont stop Lucic, McQuaid, or Miller or even Chara from dropping the gloves and going after Emelin whether Emelin wants to or not.

Boston has precedence with Chara pummeling Emelin who had no option but to go down to the ice and cover his face. And Boston has C. Campbell and Jacobs on their side. Napoleon will be silent and do nothing but observe and then hit the bars after the game is over.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

That wont stop Lucic, McQuaid, or Miller or even Chara from dropping the gloves and going after Emelin whether Emelin wants to or not.

Boston has precedence with Chara pummeling Emelin who had no option but to go down to the ice and cover his face. And Boston has C. Campbell and Jacobs on their side. Napoleon will be silent and do nothing but observe and then hit the bars after the game is over.

And imagine... Some here want Prust out of the lineup for Mickey!

 

[Hoople]

And imagine... Some here want Prust out of the lineup for Mickey!

If Prust is going to be our main option, he will be out of the lineup pretty quickly.

 

[izzy75]

Conversely, how happy would it make you to see Emelin get his face caved in just to be proven right?

What a life you must live.

You're addressing the wrong crowd. You see, I'm in the pro-goon crowd. I believe that one-screw-loose-in-the-head guys like Chara make teams think twice. I also believe that goons help smaller players play bigger, which contributes to goals and such.

As such, I'd hate to see Emelin get his face caved in. The cream puffs on this site - they'd say he deserved it... or that the refs and league will figure it all out. It's sickening.

 

[NSHabs]

Nilan, who knows a thing or two about enforcing, claims Lucic will be targeting Emelin and Weisse. Tony Marinaro suggest they ignore Lucic. Nilan doesn't totally disagree, but does suggest that he would answer the bell.

Wonder how cream puffs on this site will respond should Emelin get his (metal) face caved in?

Oh come on.What the hell does Chris Nilan know about the game of hockey.
He played in the 70s.
It was different then.
He probably doesn't even know how to use a spread sheet or a graph like these hockey messiah weenies do.

 

[sandysan]

That wont stop Lucic, McQuaid, or Miller or even Chara from dropping the gloves and going after Emelin whether Emelin wants to or not.

Boston has precedence with Chara pummeling Emelin who had no option but to go down to the ice and cover his face. And Boston has C. Campbell and Jacobs on their side. Napoleon will be silent and do nothing but observe and then hit the bars after the game is over.

you slash talent, whether you "want to" or not is moot. And the plate in the face is not a get out of jail free card. And to his credit emelin didn't " go down on the ice and cover his face" against chara.

Emelin and lucic have had an ongoing beef for quite some time now ( not just in the playoffs). How many fights between them so far ? none. Unless emelin decides to get all slashy, my guess is that he will likely tussle with lucic ( as he has) but I wouldnt expect a fight.

Lucic wesie on the other hand, I think is pretty likely.

 

[S Bah]

I will go out on a limb here, but Tinordi at present is listed at 6'6" - 227 lbs., I wouldn't be surprised to see the weight change to 235 lbs. at training camp. Tinordi is notorious for his physical conditioning and being in top shape, not surprising for a former 1st round pick of the Habs.(Character & Passion for the game) With his bloodlines being a leader and defending his teammates will come naturally for him. The biggest obstacle he's had to overcome being the growth he went through in his draft year and 1st yr. in London, obviously gaining more muscle mass these last 3 seasons. The Habs must feel his skills have finally caught up with the growth, that coupled with the developments he's made in Hamilton should hold him in good stature for what is really his rookie season in Montreal. That being the case then Lucic may find himself in over his depth when confronted by Jarred(I love that name) or the twofold meaning of jarred/Jarred.

My true feeling is that Tinordi concentrates his efforts in becoming our next Robinson, not just some type of enforcer. With his skating, competitive nature/passion for the game, it's only a matter of NHL experience, working with a team of equally character/passionate players sharing their knowledge, before he begins showing he's much more than a big presence on defence.

The Habs have a good measure of players in their system that can play both types of game. The hard physically/punishing/demanding types or the hard checking more skilled game. Those players are still learning/developing the skills that will serve them well in the NHL, with long productive careers as PWF's, they will negate the need of any "Goon Type Players" in the Habs lineups for many yrs. too come.

 

[Dominator13]

Every last one of us hopes that Tinordi ends up looking like his dad, Lyle Odelein, Marty Mcsorley, we're just not sure if it's in him yet. Fighting is a hell of a talent, ask Hal Gill, Craig Berube or worse, Brett Lindros.

 

[LastWordArmy]

I still expect the Habs to add an enforcer, a guy who can take on NHL heavyweights on a 1 way 600-900k deal and will be the 13th or 14th forward. The division has lost a far bit of those guys out there are still some around like Neill Lucic Orr etc who will run at or try to intimidate our younger/smaller/more skilled players if not deterred.

The whole "liability when out on the ice" thing I way overblown...how many goals was Parros out on the ice for last year? Most of those were early on trying to get back in shape after he was hurt.

I think the players the Habs get might be...a FA, trade or waiver claim...still lots of time to add one.

In just 22 games, and 100 minutes of ice time Parros was a -6, (9 goals against, 3 for) (Lets give him positive for the 3 goals for, thats more than 1 goal against every 4 games he played. 1 goal against for every 16:40 minutes of ice time)

His Corsi For was 26.9% (21.9% worse than the team average)
His Fenwick For was 26.8% (24% worse than the team average)

Thats pretty freaking bad, and is absolutely a liability every time he was thrown over the boards.

And thats without counting the number of pps he gave the other team.

 

[LastWordArmy]

A lot more than you think. Bergevin didn't sign Parros to get Parros, he signed Parros so that the big guys from our conference will touch him instead of Subban, Bourque or Gionta like 2 years ago. If the other guys didn't care, there would never be any call-outs from coaches and players to get somebody, no matter what some try to tell you...

It's all about getting somebody younger, hungrier and who can follow the pace of the game.

And yet, our team scored a lot less goals per game than they did before when we had no goon. All that confidence didn't improve the offence any.

 

[sandysan]

In just 22 games, and 100 minutes of ice time Parros was a -6, (9 goals against, 3 for) (Lets give him positive for the 3 goals for, thats more than 1 goal against every 4 games he played. 1 goal against for every 16:40 minutes of ice time)

His Corsi For was 26.9% (21.9% worse than the team average)
His Fenwick For was 26.8% (24% worse than the team average)

Thats pretty freaking bad, and is absolutely a liability every time he was thrown over the boards.

And thats without counting the number of pps he gave the other team.

you know what was even worse, his save percentage and his ability to predict the oscars.

Fancy stats might have value, drawing conclusions about an enforcers fancy stats is pretty much ridiculous. you should combine the two and get a new metric, the FARCE-y which would likely be more informative or at least more gramatically correct.

Mabey we can rank goalies by how many assists they get as well

 

[Dominator13]

And yet, our team scored a lot less goals per game than they did before when we had no goon. All that confidence didn't improve the offence any.

If that's what you think the purpose of a goon is, you really are that clueless...

 

[LastWordArmy]

If that's what you think the purpose of a goon is, you really are that clueless...

As has bee said numerous times in the thread by the pro-goon crowd, having a goon in the lineup makes the rest of his team feel more confident.

Ok lets assume that is true.

Parros is in the lineup... Habs confidence +9000

Does the team score more goals? no
Allow less goals against? no, in fact the opposite occurs
Generate more scoring chances? No
Give up less scoring chances against? No in fact the opposite occurs
Have a better save percentage? No
Force more of their losses into OT losses, thus getting more points? No
Have less injuries? No
Prevents cheapshots? No
Take less penalties? No
Get more powerplays? No

And the key one, win more games? No


So really this magical confidence the Habs get from having Parros in the lineup does none of those things... yet somehow he helps us win. Please explain how, because I'm apparently clueless. I'd like to see some tangible benefit, rather than some imaginary ********.

 

[LastWordArmy]

you know what was even worse, his save percentage and his ability to predict the oscars.

Fancy stats might have value, drawing conclusions about an enforcers fancy stats is pretty much ridiculous. you should combine the two and get a new metric, the FARCE-y which would likely be more informative or at least more gramatically correct.

Mabey we can rank goalies by how many assists they get as well

Yes its ridiculous to believe that a hockey player should be measured by his impact to a team's scoring chances/scoring chances against. I mean scoring chances lead to goals, and the whole idea is to score more goals than the other team... so measuring any players impact relative to their teammates is useless, even a goon's.