Divergent paths for Bruins/Canucks

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,436
14,737
Ouch!...this thread certainly has touched a raw nerve!.....but at the very least it gives lie to all the apologists of the current regime who claim that 'more time is needed"

The Bruins proved that the five years granted to the current Canuck management group to rebuild and re-tool is more than enough time to get a team back into the playoffs at least.
 

wreckless

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
1,662
581
vancouver
the casual fan happened.

add in a vile media with an agenda for no reason whatsoever, and changes were demanded!

that ignorant voice got louder, and our easily offended, emotionally unstable ownership got on board with those changes.

that's why we are here, and we deserve it.
 
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Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
40,807
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Kitimat, BC
The Bruins, top to bottom, made better personnel, player and draft decisions. They did this over multiple managers, coaches and drafts.

The Canucks, with a similar turnover in all categories, simply did not execute as well. Franceso Aquilini, Mike Gillis, Alain Vigneault, John Tortorella, Willie Desjardins, Jim Benning, Trevor Linden and Travis Green all played parts in that.

It’s unfortunate but true. Looking over their managerial decisions, coaching decisions, free agency record, trades and drafting, they have just hit on more things than the Canucks have - to the point where even their misses (the three consecutive first rounders, for example) can almost be completely forgiven.

This isn’t to say the Canucks have been uniformly awful since then. They just haven’t been as good. Not by a long shot.
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,164
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Vancouver
Glibly, the Bruins wouldn't be where they are this year in the playoffs without their goalie putting up a .937 SV%.

There are two obvious necessary conditions. First, they couldn't have re-tooled the way they have without Bergeron, Marchand and Krejci keeping up a high level of play for the better part of a decade now. Second, the fact that they re-tooled arises from good draft results: they have five players drafted since 2014 playing top-9/top-4 minutes on their team right now, and they traded another such player at the deadline to get Coyle.

How much of that is skill and how much is luck, I don't know.
 

Nuckies

Registered User
May 16, 2019
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They've been able to constantly churn out younger talent to supplement their older players.

After winning the president's trophy in 2014, they drafted David Pastrnak, Danton Heinen and Ryan Donato. The next year they missed the playoffs, recognized the opportunity to move on from Lucic one year out from his contract expiring. They flipped Martin Jones who they got for Lucic to the Sharks and got Sean Kuraly and an extra first round pick in the following season, they also drafted Jake Debrusk and Brandon Carlo. After missing the playoffs again they drafted Charlie McAvoy in the first round in 2016.

That's 5 fairly significant complimentary/young core pieces added in a 3 year span in addition to elite core they already had in place from their cup win. Donato they ended up flipping for Coyle who's been a good add for them this season.

Seeing Boston and San Jose stay relevant for so long and only miss the playoffs 3 times between them over the past 11 seasons has made me come to the realization that the concept of "windows" may not be as doomsday-ish as it's portrayed if you're able to regenerate your roster every year with fresh names.
Well said, the other point people ignore was Boston was a younger team when they beat us, so their core is now where our core was. They have had some excellent picks that have stepped right into the league and become either stars (Pastrnak) or very effective support players, Mcavoy, Debrusk etc. In a cap world you need some picks to surprise and make the team early. The canucks while drafting well haven't had those secondary wins. Guadette could be one, Tryamkin was one, but he wanted to go back.

For the Canucks, the time to really evaluate them will be the next few drafts, our new core is somewhat complete, now we need some picks to surprise (like Petey did but not necessarily at his level). I remember when Boston's gm Sweeney made those 3 first round picks a fear years back and Boston fans were livid. Only Debrusk has turned into something, and he passed on Barzal, Chabot, Boeser, but then hit his second with Carlo....

So as much as people want to rag on Benning, all teams make errors, some work out better because of what you already have (a strong core) and a kid who surprises Pastrnak.

Had Sweeney picked Barzal, Chabot and Debrusk I'd say ok he's much better, but people here are oversimplifying things in their desire to hate on Benning imho
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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Bruins drafted better. Hit in 2014&2016 and while they didn’t get the best guys in 2015 they got productive guys in DeBrusk and carlo.

Had Sweeney picked Barzal, Chabot and Debrusk I'd say ok he's much better, but people here are oversimplifying things in their desire to hate on Benning imho

the 2015 draft answers the question almost all by itself. boston: six picks in the first two rounds, of which two are playing important roles right now. vancouver: one pick in the first two rounds, and he's our second best player. but I'm glad we had baertschi to fill the age gap.
 

Peter10

Registered User
Dec 7, 2003
4,193
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So as much as people want to rag on Benning, all teams make errors, some work out better because of what you already have (a strong core) and a kid who surprises Pastrnak.

Had Sweeney picked Barzal, Chabot and Debrusk I'd say ok he's much better, but people here are oversimplifying things in their desire to hate on Benning imho

Its not about making an error here and there, its about complete incompetence shown over 5 years. Nobody would have too many issues with Juolevi or Virtanen if we had several mid round picks playing important roles to fill the void of a failed to top pick but all we got is Gaudette and Demko showing signs of being potential NHL players. Now combine that with failure over failure in all aspects of GMing (free agents, trades, staff decisions) and its crystal clear why the Canucks are where they are. It has nothing to do with Benning hate.
 

nowhereman

Registered User
Jan 24, 2010
9,293
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Los Angeles
The Canucks and Bruins went a marathon seven games in the Stanley Cup Final of 2011. Since then the two franchises have been on totally divergent paths.

Whereas the Bruins have totally rebuilt and re-tooled and look like they're headed back to the final this year, the Canucks have basically withered away and are locked in lottery land.

What are the reasons why the Bruins have reinvented themselves and the Canucks have stagnated? Meddling owners? Bad trades and drafting? Firing Gillis too early after only one bad season? Or all of the above?

I can't believe the owner Aquilini hasn't at least wondered why the Bruins have succeeded and the Canucks flopped?
Of course Jim Benning was the first answer and received the most likes but the real, far less intellectually lazy answer is that the Bruins were built around Bergeron, Marchand, Chara and eventually Rask, not the Sedins (who fell off a cliff), Edler (who was a shadow of himself after his back injury) and what ever was left over of Ryan Kesler (who asked to be traded to one team and is so broken down he can't even play anymore). You can deny it all you like, even exclaiming that the Sedins would still be magically playing if not for Benning (lol, they were slow as molasses and bled defensive chances), but the Bruins core was significantly younger and their aging players weren't gifted NTCs and NMCs. One of Bergeron or Marchand, on their own, likely produce more than both Sedins combined had the brothers kept playing. Factor in that the stretch of drafting from 2008-2012 was vomit-inducing, with no youth to augment the Canucks' aging core, and it's pretty easy to see why the Canucks fell off a cliff.

Yes, Benning has played his part in this ugly stretch but the answer is not just "Benning".
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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Of course Jim Benning was the first answer and received the most likes but the real, far less intellectually lazy answer is that the Bruins were built around Bergeron, Marchand, Chara and eventually Rask, not the Sedins (who fell off a cliff), Edler (who was a shadow of himself after his back injury) and what ever was left over of Ryan Kesler (who asked to be traded to one team and is so broken down he can't even play anymore). You can deny it all you like, even exclaiming that the Sedins would still be magically playing if not for Benning (lol, they were slow as molasses and bled defensive chances), but the Bruins core was significantly younger and their aging players weren't gifted NTCs and NMCs. One of Bergeron or Marchand, on their own, likely produce more than both Sedins combined had the brothers kept playing. Factor in that the stretch of drafting from 2008-2012 was vomit-inducing, with no youth to augment the Canucks' aging core, and it's pretty easy to see why the Canucks fell off a cliff.

Yes, Benning has played his part in this ugly stretch but the answer is not just "Benning".

i agree to a point. but i wonder if geography is also a factor.

bergeron is not much younger than kesler, and they were from the same draft. similar role, though it is true that kesler plays a bit of a more physically taxing game and was more dependent on his physical abilities as he aged. but on the other hand, it's not like kesler fell off a cliff right after 2011. he was a selke finalist for two years, 2016 and 2017, before he fell apart. if he hadn't played on the west coast his entire career, maybe he just starts falling apart now?

it's funny though that there were a few interesting parallels between those two teams, only one team did things mostly right (and got super lucky) and the other did everything wrong (and had some bad luck thrown at them).

nobody expected thomas to last until 2019, but then i think we're all also surprised luongo is still going strong. both teams had future star goalies as backups in 2011. both rask and schneider became bona fide starters and, for a time at least, top shelf goalies in the league. the big difference of course is the luongo contract snafu and schneider having to be traded, to say nothing of schneider falling apart for the last two seasons. boston had its own goalie tandem meltdown, but they were lucky enough to get out of it and pretty cleanly transition from thomas to rask.

bergeron/kesler i've already noted.

both had rookie centers in and out of their lineups in the finals. boston's was the better prospect, but ours was a great prospect too. neither team got any players of longterm value out of the trade but here again is the big difference in the two franchises' operating procedures: boston wisely gave reilly smith to florida to dump the marc savard contract, buying them flexibility to execute a successful on-the-fly rebuild (in the same offseason they also traded dougie hamilton and lucic to amass a huge stockpile of draft picks).

meanwhile, gillis panic-traded hodgson for kassian when he really should have been able to get more for what was at the time an extremely highly-touted rookie. but where boston traded smith to gain cap room, vancouver later traded kassian AND a pick to absorb cap dump/cancer brandon prust. then they later signed the other guy in the seguin trade, loui eriksson, to an insane $36 million UFA contract after boston wisely let him go.

not to say boston didn't also squander a lot of that cap space (backes) and a few of the assets (rick nash) but they did have the ability to re-sign all their core players longterm and this year had the assets and flexibility to add coyle and johansson.
 

drax0s

Registered User
Mar 18, 2014
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  1. 2011 Canucks had an older core that disintegrated with age. 2011 Bruins top players were 22-25. Canucks players were 26-31.
  2. Bruins sold better assets and didn't waste them on reclamation projects. Bruins sold off Lucic, Jones, Boychuk & Hamilton. Canucks sold off Schneider, Kesler and... Garrison?
  3. Both drafted okay 2014-2016, but Canucks lost/traded many of their drafted players. Pastrnak, Donato, Heinen, Carlo, Debrusk, McAvoy vs Virtanen, McCann*, Demko, Tryamkin*, Forsling*, Boeser, Gaudette.
Summary: Bruins still have elements of their 2011 core playing at a high level and also supplemented them well with quality younger players drafted 3-4 years ago who are coming into their prime. The Canucks tried to shortcut a rebuild and had their 2011 core atrophy beneath them.
 

PG Canuck

Registered User
Mar 29, 2010
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And how old were Chara and Thomas, the two best players for the Bruins? Lol.

Chara is a slug now - still an effective piece but he's not exactly dominant. The entire Canucks core started a decline afterwards.

Krejci 24 years old
Lucic 22 years old
Bergeron 25 years old
Horton 25 years old (Obviously got hurt, but scored some big goals in their run)
Marchand 22 years old
Seguin 18 years old

Sedin 29 years old
Sedin 29 years old
Kesler 26 years old
Burrows 29 years old

Krejci/Bergeron/Marchand are massive pieces to what the Bruins are today. Sedins are retired, Kesler is gone but his career is essentially over anyways, Burrows is retired. Bieksa retired. Canucks still have some pieces leftover but they're injury prone as f*** and so unreliable (Tanev/Edler).

The Canucks quite literally have an entire new core, while the Bruins have a good chunk of theirs from 2011 that were huge pieces then and still are now.
 
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Fire Benning

diaper filled piss baby
Oct 2, 2016
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It's crazy how Boston has done such a good job drafting in the first round even accounting for the fact that they whiffed on two mid first round picks in a stacked draft. Pastrnak, Debrusk, and McAvoy in three years is pretty good.
 

Frankie Blueberries

Allergic to draft picks
Jan 27, 2016
9,245
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It's actually amazing that the Bruins are doing so well when you factor in two asinine, potentially franchise-changing moves:

-The Seguin trade and having nothing to show for it; and
-Blowing their three 1st round picks in 2015 when Barzal/Chabot/Connor/Boeser/Konecny/etc. were available and were common sense picks.

They definitely hit home runs with McAvoy and Pastrnak, which helped offset the above gaffes. But still, it's amazing that their core of Bergeron, Marchand, Pasta, Chara, McAvoy, Rask, etc. have been able to continually produce and play at a high level when they have done a poor job drafting and developing young talent given the opportunities they have had.
 

RebuildinVan

Registered User
Jun 25, 2017
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Boston gets in the final for the second time since 2011, weve missed the playoffs 5 of 6. Theyll still be strong and relevant next year, we hope to make the playoffs if everything goes right. Man I need a drink after typing this.....
 
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F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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The Canucks and Bruins went a marathon seven games in the Stanley Cup Final of 2011. Since then the two franchises have been on totally divergent paths.

Whereas the Bruins have totally rebuilt and re-tooled and look like they're headed back to the final this year, the Canucks have basically withered away and are locked in lottery land.

What are the reasons why the Bruins have reinvented themselves and the Canucks have stagnated? Meddling owners? Bad trades and drafting? Firing Gillis too early after only one bad season? Or all of the above?

I can't believe the owner Aquilini hasn't at least wondered why the Bruins have succeeded and the Canucks flopped?

Personally, I am surprised at the Bruins' success. I guess they are a good team but I'm not envious of their roster. But in comparison, they did have a younger core and they struck gold with a couple of their top picks, and found players later on in the draft. With players contributing at a younger age it is possible to get better quickly especially if you manage to draft some high end talent.

I think they have also managed to keep their identity over the years. I know it's a cliche to say "Bruins Hockey" but the Bruins mostly kept their identity. Many here think old style hockey is out of style but things like faceoff wins and blocking shots couple with the top guys producing offensively have played a big part in Washington winning the Cup last year and the Bruins going to the Finals.
 

EpochLink

Canucks and Jets fan
Aug 1, 2006
60,808
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Factor in that the stretch of drafting from 2008-2012 was vomit-inducing, with no youth to augment the Canucks' aging core, and it's pretty easy to see why the Canucks fell off a cliff.

This sure played a part, the Canucks drafting between this time period sucked.
Alot of misses than hits, massive first round busts and the later part of the drafting sure was terrible.

I think I read earlier that Jordan Schroeder is off to the KHL, he finished his NHL career with 18 goals. Hodgson retired due to issues, Jensen was a massive bust, Gaunce was even worse...
 

Cupless44

Registered User
Jun 25, 2014
7,156
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The Canucks and Bruins went a marathon seven games in the Stanley Cup Final of 2011. Since then the two franchises have been on totally divergent paths.

Whereas the Bruins have totally rebuilt and re-tooled and look like they're headed back to the final this year, the Canucks have basically withered away and are locked in lottery land.

What are the reasons why the Bruins have reinvented themselves and the Canucks have stagnated? Meddling owners? Bad trades and drafting? Firing Gillis too early after only one bad season? Or all of the above?

I can't believe the owner Aquilini hasn't at least wondered why the Bruins have succeeded and the Canucks flopped?

Pretty simple to figure out really.

We have bad meddling Ownership who have employed an incompetent GM for going on 6 years.
 
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Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
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Actually. I’d say that they have indeed been awful after 2012.

What I mean by that is we have had some good choices (or some lucky ones). Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes - to a lesser extent guys like Demko and Stecher.

But my major point still stands. Top to bottom, not good enough, and not even close to Boston.
 

Bubbles

Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Apr 16, 2004
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It's crazy how Boston has done such a good job drafting in the first round even accounting for the fact that they whiffed on two mid first round picks in a stacked draft. Pastrnak, Debrusk, and McAvoy in three years is pretty good.

And they kept the majority of of their picks, while Benning hands them out for middling bottom 6-ers.

Not re-signing Eriksson was a big win for them too. And trading Lucic while he had some value was a brilliant move.

It's about proper asset management. You can tell the Bruins don't have sentimentality ruling their organization. They assessed each player, kept the good ones (Krejci, Bergeron, Marchand) and discarded the rest. They're not completely free of blemishes (Backes) but they've done well enough that you can ignore the misses.
 

valkynax

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What I mean by that is we have had some good choices (or some lucky ones). Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes - to a lesser extent guys like Demko and Stecher.

But my major point still stands. Top to bottom, not good enough, and not even close to Boston.

Now I know it's a big reach to say Benning's departure is the sole reason that Boston's able to get their shit together and start rising again, but I think it's fair to say that this was at least a contributing factor towards Boston's ascension.

The main point, in my opinion, is that while Boston did have better existing pieces to work with, they also managed to make good moves in both drafting and trade fronts. There were idiotic moves for sure, such as turning Seguin into a pack of magic beans along with questionable drafting choices. But overall, the team is managed better than the Orcas, and that's the truth.
 
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valkynax

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They also have Vito Corleone (Jacobs) controlling the NHL behind the scene. We have Fredo Corleone.

I think you spelled "Chief Wiggum" wrong.

source.gif
 
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