Discussion: Who were the 10 best players 1895-1900?

[tarheelhockey]

As we gear up for another round of project-driven research, it seems like an opportune time to shed a bit of light on an era that is undoubtedly a weak point for most of us. This isn't a formal project, just a discussion and not meant to distract from the top-100 lists currently in progress. Hopefully, the information shared here might come in handy for folks who are struggling with early candidates.

The original idea was to make this a top-5 (credit to @Black Gold Extractor for coming up with the concept) but there's good reason to expand it to 10. Unless I've overlooked someone, only 8 players from this period have been profiled in the ATD:

Dan Bain
Graham Drinkwater
Mike Grant
Harvey Pulford
Blair Russel
Alf Smith
Dolly Swift
Harry "Rat" Westwick

I'm fairly certain that at one point there were bios for Fred Scanlan, Art Farrell, and Harry Trihey -- seems they have been lost in the Land of Broken Links. I didn't include Russell Bowie, John Bouse Hutton, or Bruce Stuart, whose careers started in 1899 (I think). And not one of these guys was a goalie!

Points of reference

Senior leagues during this period (not all teams existed in all 5 years):
AAHL (starting in late 1896) - Brooklyn Crescent, Brooklyn Skating Club, New York AC, New York HC, New York Montclair, New York St. Nicholas
AHAC (became CAHL in 1898) - Montreal Crystals/Shamrocks, Montreal HC, Montreal Victorias, Ottawa HC, Quebec HC
MHA - Winnipeg HC, Winnipeg Victorias
OHA - Brockville, Kingston Frontenacs, Osgoode Hall, Peterborough, Queens University, Royal Military College, Stratford, Toronto AC, Toronto Granites, Toronto Victorias, Trinity College, University of Toronto
US Collegiate - Brown, Columbia, Harvard, Haverford, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, MIT, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania Dental, Pittsburgh, Yale
WPHL (1897 and 1899 only) - Pittsburgh AC, Pittsburgh Casino, Pittsburgh Duquesne, Univ of Pittsburgh
Exhibition teams existed in certain areas, e.g. Edmonton

Stanley Cup Challenge results:
1895 - Montreal HC 5, Queens University 1
1896 - Winnipeg Victorias 2, Montreal Victorias 0
1896 - Montreal Victorias 6, Winnipeg Victorias 5
1897 - Montreal Victorias 15, Ottawa Capitals 2
1899 - Montreal Victorias 5, Winnipeg Victorias 3
1899 - Montreal Shamrocks 6, Queens University 2



So...
Who belongs in a top-10 from this era?
What worthy candidates haven't been mentioned yet?
Was there an identifiable GOAT as the calendar turned over to the new century?
Were goalies in this era just total bums, or has someone been overlooked?

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

I'm fairly certain that at one point there were bios for Fred Scanlan, Art Farrell, and Harry Trihey -- seems they have been lost in the Land of Broken Links.

Here are the bios I am able to dig up:

Fred Scanlan:
2012: MLD 2012 Bios (pic, quotes, stats, accomplishments, everything)

Art Farrell:
2009: MLD11 Draft Thread
2013: MLD, AAA & AA 2013 BIOs

Harry Trihey:
2010: HOHHOF : Early Era round-up!

 

[DN28]

As we gear up for another round of project-driven research, it seems like an opportune time to shed a bit of light on an era that is undoubtedly a weak point for most of us. This isn't a formal project, just a discussion and not meant to distract from the top-100 lists currently in progress. Hopefully, the information shared here might come in handy for folks who are struggling with early candidates.

The original idea was to make this a top-5 (credit to @Black Gold Extractor for coming up with the concept) but there's good reason to expand it to 10. Unless I've overlooked someone, only 8 players from this period have been profiled in the ATD:

Dan Bain
Graham Drinkwater
Mike Grant
Harvey Pulford
Blair Russel
Alf Smith
Dolly Swift
Harry "Rat" Westwick

I'm fairly certain that at one point there were bios for Fred Scanlan, Art Farrell, and Harry Trihey -- seems they have been lost in the Land of Broken Links. I didn't include Russell Bowie, John Bouse Hutton, or Bruce Stuart, whose careers started in 1899 (I think). And not one of these guys was a goalie!

Points of reference

Senior leagues during this period (not all teams existed in all 5 years):
AHAC (became CAHL in 1898) - Montreal Crystals/Shamrocks, Montreal HC, Montreal Victorias, Ottawa HC, Quebec HC
MHA - Winnipeg HC, Winnipeg Victorias
OHA - Brockville, Kingston Frontenacs, Osgoode Hall, Peterborough, Queens University, Royal Military College, Stratford, Toronto AC, Toronto Granites, Toronto Victorias, Trinity College, University of Toronto
US Collegiate - Brown, Columbia, Harvard, Haverford, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, MIT, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania Dental, Pittsburgh, Yale
WPHL (1897 and 1899 only) - Pittsburgh AC, Pittsburgh Casino, Pittsburgh Duquesne, Univ of Pittsburgh
Exhibition teams existed in certain areas, such as Edmonton and NYC

Stanley Cup Challenge results:
1895 - Montreal HC 5, Queens University 1
1896 - Winnipeg Victorias 2, Montreal Victorias 0
1896 - Montreal Victorias 6, Winnipeg Victorias 5
1897 - Montreal Victorias 15, Ottawa Capitals 2
1899 - Montreal Victorias 5, Winnipeg Victorias 3
1899 - Montreal Shamrocks 6, Queens University 2



So...
Who belongs in a top-10 from this era?
What worthy candidates haven't been mentioned yet?
Was there an identifiable GOAT as the calendar turned over to the new century?
Were goalies in this era just total bums, or has someone been overlooked?

This old thread may help you.

The Greatest Players of the 1890's

John Bouse Hutton was a goalie btw.

 

[rmartin65]

Great thread. I'll have my list in by the end of the weekend.

 

[Sanf]

I don´t know if goalies were bums. I wouldn´t put them in highest positions in my top 10, but I do think there are few to consider. For example "Whitey" Merritt was given lot of credit for Winnipegs first Stanley Cup.

Winnipeg Free Press
Saturday, February 18, 1899
When the Winnipeg vics defeated the Victorias three years ago and carried off the Stanley Cup there were a great many who maintained that if it had not been for the phenomenal work of Merritt in goal westerners would not have won. While the the fair-minded do not admit the truth of this, there was no doubt that Merrit had his eye on the puck. In fact Geordie generally has his optics on the disk when he gets between the posts and he has been goal-keeper considerably over a decade...

He has been at the game so long that there is little danger of him getting rattled, even when closely pressed....


Winnipeg Free Press
Friday, February 21, 1896
Mr.George H.Merritt "the man who won the stanley cup" returned to the city on yesterday´s C.P.R train. ...
the redoubtable "Whitey" has not quite recoverd from his hard work in the big match a week ago to-day, and many bruises on his body bear testimony to the hard shots he stopped so well.

If we count Bouse Hutton to this he obviously is a candidate, though his main competition were the goalies of next generation. The already mentioned Whitey Merritt is one. I know that some people in here are fans of Herbert Collins and he is fine candidate. Almost my personal favourite is Frank Stocking who may get bit pity points of always having uphill battle, but still by far the goalie which I have found most positive information.

I can post something about him because it´s available me right now...

 

[Sanf]

So clips from Frank Stocking throughout his career. As a disclaimer hometown paper might have been sometimes bit biased, but the recognition came through all around. Also underlining what kind of workload he had compared to the other goalies.

The Quebec Saturday Budget - Jan 20, 1894
... but if Morel was a stonewall, Frank Stocking was a whole fortication work, rampart, glacis and all...

The Toronto Daily Mail - Jan 22, 1894
...it was due to the great goal-keeping of the Quebec man that won the match for the boys from the Ancient Capital... Stocking of Quebec was kept busy from the start, and shot after shot was stopped at goal... The Quebec boys were jubilant over their victory, which was a surprise.

The Quebec Saturday Budget - Feb 10, 1894
Carnival festivities close with a Hocky Victory for Quebecers. which gave Stocking at the one end and Collins at the other frequent opportunities to prove themselves the excellent goal keepers that they are.

The Quebec Saturday Budget - Mar 2, 1895
For Quebec Stocking in this game played a star game
Ottawa Journal:
"The man who saved Quebec from a crushing defeat was Stocking, the goalkeeper. He made stop after stop of seemingly sure games. Shots that came like bullets or a bouncing puck made little difference to him. In the first half he stopped five or six and in the second half nearly twice that number of shots, hard and swift, right on the goal posts.

The Quebec Saturday Budget - Feb 1, 1896
Stocking in goal kept his charge in a way that entitles him to be considered one of the best goal keepers in Canada.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 11, 1897
The shining light of Quebec´s side was Stocking, whose playing in goal was the most astonishing ever seen. His stops in quick succession were most wondeful and elicited the applause of everyone.Without Stocking in goal it is safe that Quebec would have been defeated by double the score.

The Montreal Gazette - Jan 11, 1897
In the second half the Quebecs were on the defensive most of the time, and Stocking did wonderfull work in the goal.

The Montreal Gazette - Jan 18, 1897
The Quebec´s played plucky up-hill game and their defence play was simply superb, the work of Stocking in goal drawing forth well merited applause... Chittick, in goal made two fine stops.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 25, 1897
Stocking doing great work, and after some dozen shots Montreal scored.

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 8, 1897
Stocking and Swift worked like beavers, and while goal keeper´s stops were much admired, it still remained to be seen that Scott and Watson were letting the puck go past them in a surprising way.

The Montreal Gazette - Feb 8, 1897
Stocking, however played a remarkably good game in goals. He is an old hand and did he get proper support his team would win more victories.

The Montreal Gazette - Jan 10, 1898
The Montrealers played the puck all round the Quebec defence, and shot the puck time and again, while home were saved only by the phenomenal stopping of their goalkeeper, Stocking.

The Metropolitan - Jan 29, 1898
The forwards seemed to be out of condition, but they did sufficent team work to keeop Quebec quessing, and only MR. Stockings excellent work in goal prevented their scoring oftener.

The Ottawa Journal 15 Jan 1900, Mon
Quebec, people, admit that Hutton is quite as good a goal keeper as Stocking and this is quite an admission for Quebecers to make.

ICE HOCKEY and ICE POLO GUIDE 1901 by Arthur Farrell
Mr. F.S Stocking goal-keeper of the Quebec team and generally recognized throughout Canada as the peer of his position, has kindly contributed the following hints on goal-minding_

The Montreal Gazette - Mar 8, 1935
Turning Back Hockey´s Pages
By D. A. L. MacDONALD
Frank Stocking started his hockey career around 1894 and played until 1900, to be succeeded by Paddy Moran. The latter played until Quebec City dropped out of the NHA in 1915, so that period of 20 years, the Ancient Capital was blessed with the best goaltending in the east. Stocking perfected his eye by using two or three pucks in practice and allowed his team-mates to fire at him at will.

 

[sr edler]

1895–1900 is a small window, but I guess some players had short careers.

In Winnipeg outside of Bain I think the best players offensively were Jack Armytage, Tom Howard & Tony Gingras.

In Winnipeg hockey though the most overlooked in general came in at the end of that window and played from 1900–1909, Billy Breen.

On the Montreal Shamrocks Desse Brown & Jack Brannen, perhaps. Brannen played rover and was really quick, a speed skater.

On the Montreal Hockey Club, Clare McKerrow & Billy Barlow.

On the Montreal Victorias, Bob MacDougall, Shirley & Cam Davidson.

Some of those Wikipedia entries aren't that informative though.

 

[sr edler]

Exhibition teams existed in certain areas, such as Edmonton and NYC

Those weren't exhibition teams in NYC, their amateur league started in 96–97, which is around the same time WPHL started up. New York Athletic Club had almost exclusively players from Montreal. Later a group of Montreal Shamrocks players joined the Brooklyn Skating Club, most notably Bob Wall & Bill Dobby.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Those weren't exhibition teams in NYC, their amateur league started in 96–97, which is around the same time WPHL started up. New York Athletic Club had almost exclusively players from Montreal. Later a group of Montreal Shamrocks players joined the Brooklyn Skating Club, most notably Bob Wall & Bill Dobby.

Right you are, adding AAHL to the OP list.

John Bouse Hutton was a goalie btw.

You're right... I intended to say that none of the ones who really played in this time period was a goalie. Hutton only started playing at the senior level in 1899, so I feel like he's a bit too late to count for this list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Harry Trihey and Mike Grant have the best cases for top 2, IMO. Maybe Dan Bain.

So first impression:

1. Grant
2. Trihey
3. Bain (though Bain is harder for me to get a handle on than the above two.

Trihey was WAY better than his linemates Farrell and Scanlan.

I don't really consider Harvey Pulford, Blair Russell, and Alf Smith as pre-1900 players. Should I? Seems especially weird to include Blair Russell, whose best years were spent as Russell Bowie's defensive conscience. I think of what Pulford and Smith did playing with Frank McGee, but I realize they did start up before he did.

Edit: I also think of Westwick as mostly post-1900.

 

[Sanf]

Those weren't exhibition teams in NYC, their amateur league started in 96–97, which is around the same time WPHL started up. New York Athletic Club had almost exclusively players from Montreal. Later a group of Montreal Shamrocks players joined the Brooklyn Skating Club, most notably Bob Wall & Bill Dobby.

I believe Goalie Drysdale was in that group too. Don´t know if coincidence, but that Shamrock team and Montreal. A..A.A. played exhibition tour in U.S. (1896) and played in New York too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The most talked about goalie of the era was Tom Paton... who isn't in the HHOF, unlike numerous skaters from the era. Makes me question how important goaltending was, though there are some posters on the ATD board who are bigger fans of Paton than I am.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The most talked about goalie of the era was Tom Paton... who isn't in the HHOF, unlike numerous skaters from the era. Makes me question how important goaltending was, though there are some posters on the ATD board who are bigger fans of Paton than I am.

Paton was done by 1893, though.

I have lingering questions as to whether Paton was actually exceptional at his position, or just the guy who happened to play goalie on the best team. Probably not the right thread for that argument, though...

 

[Professor What]

Does it seem fair to say that the rules of the time were stacked against goalies and that that might have hurt them? There was some discussion in another thread about some of the now ridiculous-seeming rules of the early years, and the idea that goalies had to stand up all the time was one of the ones that was mentioned. The period being discussed here really isn't too long before Clint Benedict forced the rule change by "falling down" so much. In the big scheme of things, Benedict was a very early player since there are records of his play going back to 1909. When a guy can flop around on the ice and do whatever he has to do to stop the puck, it's a lot easier to avoid an eight or ten goal game, so maybe that has simply led to the earliest goalies, as good as some of them might have actually been being overshadowed by an early rule change. What would Dominik Hasek have looked like if he had to stay on his feet all the time?

 

[Sanf]

The most talked about goalie of the era was Tom Paton... who isn't in the HHOF, unlike numerous skaters from the era. Makes me question how important goaltending was, though there are some posters on the ATD board who are bigger fans of Paton than I am.

Well OP has set quite a small timeframe. Tom Paton was already retired.

But regarding Tom Paton. I don´t know. Was he the most talked one? One of the biggest oddities in his career is 1887. In 86 M.A.A.A got many players from Crystals. One of those was their goalie "Billy" Hutchinson. Now for whatever reason he replaced Paton and pushed him as backup, Now the reasons ofcourse could be anything. But Paton wasn´t fully out of hockey that sesaon. I have him playing one exhibition game and once he literally was backup.

The Montreal Daily Herald - Jan 21, 1887
shortly before half time, J.Findlay,Montreal, got a severe fall and had to retire. He was replaced in the forwards by W.Hutchinson, whose place in goals was filled by Tom Paton.




And especially from the late (18)80´s I haven´t found anything super significant to say he was the clearly the best goalie.

I have been in truth been more impressed by the young man called W.Norris (who actually also played D). Maybe it´s again bit unfair if Paton´s superior team made him work less... but overall I would have love to find more about him.

The Montreal Daily Herald - Feb 22, 1887
Montreal-Crystals
Just before the close of this half, virtue of the Montreal´s lifted the puck and it was going, high over the Crystal goals. Norris, the goal keeper, put up his hand to stop it and the rubber striking his hand fell clear behind.

All men on each team played grand hockey, but the lion´s share of deserved praise fell to W.Norris, the Crystal goal-keeper, who is certainly the most brilliant young hockey player ever seen on ice in Montreal.

The Toronto Daily Mail - Jan 9, 1888
Victorias-Crystals
Several times it seemed very hard luck that the Vics did not even things up, but it seemed impossible to get the puck past Norris, who, between the poles is a phenomenal player.

Montreal Herald - Jan 21, 1889
The game was a well contested one, the especial feature of the evening being the magnificent goal-keeping of Mr. W.Norris for the Crystals, who time and again by a series of brilliant play averted defeat at most critical points, for which he was loudly applauded. Mr. T.L. Paton the goal keeper for the Montrealers, also put in some first class work whenever required.

 

[Sanf]

Paton was done by 1893, though.

I have lingering questions as to whether Paton was actually exceptional at his position, or just the guy who happened to play goalie on the best team. Probably not the right thread for that argument, though...

Yeah, sorry. I agree.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Here are the primary goalies in the AHAC, MHL, and OHA, per SIHR records:

Kingston
Edward O'Donnell (1895)

Montreal Crystals/Shamrocks
James Shiner White (1895)
James Drysdale (1896)
Joseph Ernest Panguelo (1897)
George Semple (1898)
James McKenna (1899)

Montreal HC (Montreal AAA)
Herbert Collins (1895-1899)

Montreal Victorias
Robert Jones (1895-1896)
George Gordon Lewis (1897-1899)
Frank Richardson (1898-1899)
Note: Lewis and Richardson split the starts in 98 and 99

Ottawa HC
Fred Chittick (1895-1899)
Alexander Cope (1898)
Note: Chittick and Cope split the starts in 98

Quebec HC
Frank Stocking (1895-1899)

Queen's University
Robert Hiscock (1895-1897)
Robert Carmichael (1898-99)

University of Toronto
Oliver Culbert (1895)
Robert Waldie (1897-1899)

Winnipeg HC
Charles Drayton (1895)
Arthur Tart Stow (1895)
John Jack Shepard (1896)
Ham Baker (1897-1898)
J. Delmage (1899)

Winnipeg Victorias
Jack Shepard (1895)
George Merritt (1895-1899)
Henry Cronn (1898)
Note: Merritt split starts with the others in 95 and 98



The ones who stick out as having played right through the era for top-level teams are:
Fred Chittick (Ottawa)
Herbert Collins (Montreal)
Frank Stocking (Quebec)
George Merritt (Winnipeg)


SIHR has spotty records for the OHA and the American leagues.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Does it seem fair to say that the rules of the time were stacked against goalies and that that might have hurt them? There was some discussion in another thread about some of the now ridiculous-seeming rules of the early years, and the idea that goalies had to stand up all the time was one of the ones that was mentioned. The period being discussed here really isn't too long before Clint Benedict forced the rule change by "falling down" so much. In the big scheme of things, Benedict was a very early player since there are records of his play going back to 1909. When a guy can flop around on the ice and do whatever he has to do to stop the puck, it's a lot easier to avoid an eight or ten goal game, so maybe that has simply led to the earliest goalies, as good as some of them might have actually been being overshadowed by an early rule change. What would Dominik Hasek have looked like if he had to stay on his feet all the time?

That, and also the goalies were using effectively the same equipment as everyone else. Leg pads weren't even a consideration until 1896 (George Merritt) and even then, they were just form-fitting cricket shinguards. As far as I know the wider goalie stick was an early 1900s innovation. So aside from extra-thick shinguards, the goalie was just a regular skater playing in front of the net.

I think it's legit to question whether one goalie could really influence the game very much compared to another. Of course there would be an advantage to having the guy who was a better skater and stickhandler, but that advantage seems pretty slim. edit: Well, it looks like maybe @Sanf found a case of a goalie who was significantly better than his peers.

 

[Professor What]

That, and also the goalies were using effectively the same equipment as everyone else. Leg pads weren't even a consideration until 1896 (George Merritt) and even then, they were just form-fitting cricket shinguards. As far as I know the wider goalie stick was an early 1900s innovation. So aside from extra-thick shinguards, the goalie was just a regular skater playing in front of the net.

I think it's legit to question whether one goalie could really influence the game very much compared to another. Of course there would be an advantage to having the guy who was a better skater and stickhandler, but that advantage seems pretty slim. edit: Well, it looks like maybe @Sanf found a case of a goalie who was significantly better than his peers.

I didn't even think about the equipment aspect of it, but that's very true too. I really do believe that, in the game that existed then, goalies were distinctly disadvantaged. I think that the fact that just one guy in a similar time period to the one laid out has been found further attests to that, especially since he technically falls outside of the date range given. Outside of the first few years of the sport, there's no way we'd struggle to find at least a handful of good goalies for any five year span.

I think that impacts more than just the standing of the goalies though. If they were dealing with disadvantaged goalies, does that change the way we look at the skaters as well? Since they were in an advantaged position, can we really rate them in the same way we would rate skaters just a few years later? I don't mean to take anything away from them. I'm simply saying that perhaps they should be viewed with a little more skepticism over their offensive numbers and a little more focus on their defensive and physical abilities.

 

[sr edler]

SIHR has spotty records for the OHA and the American leagues.

OHA was such a big league with the A, B, Intermediate & Junior series going on simultaneously for so many seasons it would be an absolutely enormous task for a single researcher to do all those things, taking up a bizarre amount of time. Toronto papers are also not that easily available in the common digital internet sphere. It's also not like people get paid to do that type of research, unless they publish it in a book to a very niche audience that might not give them any reasonable $ back.

I know there's a SIHR guy who has some OHA stuff though published somewhere.

On the SIHR almost all AAHL research (20 seasons), statistical & biographical, outside of the 1910 season is done by me. PIMs are not there though because it was nearly impossible to track with any sort of consistency.

 

[sr edler]

I believe Goalie Drysdale was in that group too. Don´t know if coincidence, but that Shamrock team and Montreal. A..A.A. played exhibition tour in U.S. (1896) and played in New York too.

Yes, he was. And yeah, Montreal teams played quite much or often in New York. I know Montreal Victorias were there and played with Bowie numerous times over several years, for instance. Ottawa Cliffsides played in New York, et cetera. Canadian players often came in groups from Canadian team to US team. You have the Kingston, Ontario clique (Herb Rayner, Mack Murray, Billy Hamilton) for instance going to the Pittsburgh PAC. You have the Shamrocks players going to the Brooklyn Skating Club, et cetera. It often happened like that.

Those were exhibition games, Canadian team vs US team, but exhibition games were sometimes or often quite brutal. As the box quote on the Billy Breen entry says, there was a game between the Winnipeg Hockey Club and the Winnipeg Maple Leafs which escalated into almost unprecedented violence, where the Hockey Club finally pulled its players. That Maple Leafs team had notoriously dirty players Harry Smith & Joe Hall on its roster.

The reason I take up exhibition games regarding this era is the "McDavid junior hockey vs Nighbor" argument. There are just so many exhibition games from this era that are not recorded, not even if you welter into the SIHR database. So if you look at players recorded records/statistics from this era, it's not the full picture. They played a lot more serious games than that, including often being multi-sport athletes (lacrosse, football, paddling). I'm not saying this to you, because I know you already know this, but I'm saying it for people not as familiar with the era.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Toronto papers are also not that easily available in the common digital internet sphere.

I find this incredibly annoying.

 

[sr edler]

I find this incredibly annoying.

Yeah, it's unfortunate.

 

[Sanf]

I find this incredibly annoying.

Yeah. Thats huge obstacle especially when doing this overseas.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't mean to be a main boards poster, but yous know me...at what point do we suspect that goalers evolved from Craig Ludwig to something more, hmm, specialized...? Yeah, let's go with specialized. Even if goaltender was a position of note and was played by individuals who didn't play another position (or another position frequently)...using that 1910 practice (?) film and some context clues, I'm not certain that isn't just a statue of standing shot blocking back there...