Prospect Info: Discussion: Prospects and Marlies Thread IX

[Barilko14]

Valiev has, for the most part, looked awful this year. I don't think there is anything he has done well.

The Leafs are more likely to use Marincin, Loov, Nielsen, Dermott, signing a free agent (possibly even Hunwick) or acquiring a replacement through trade (even a cap dump) over using Valiev next year.

Do you watch Marlies games regularly.., Sea..? Highlights, even....? Valiev has really stepped it up, from last season.. He's becoming stronger, defensively.. and has been on the + side of the +/- stats most of the season, so far..., because of it..

He's more ready right now, than Loov, Dermott and Corrado, imo...
Nielsen would be the one to challenge him, but Valiev's defense is better atm.. and Babs probably knows this..

Well these two views could not be more conflicting.

Kind of like earlier in the year when a poster was hyping Nielsen up to be a future Norris candidate with no flaws, then posters say he has lots of work to do on skating, and defensive play.

We need that John Eric guy back with some regular reports on the Marlies.

 

[SEER]

Rinat Valiev Goal - December 18, 2016



...defends his team-mates pretty quickly, too..

Rinat Valiev vs Kevin Rooney Oct 29, 2016

 

[realgoodleafs]

Goes to show you development is not just a straight line.

Percy and Finn were surefire NHLers at one point. Loov came over a couple of years ago and looked like a sure bet to be at least a bottom pairing guy. Valiev last year seemed to have a great season as a 1st year pro, and you say he's fallen way off.

Guess people shouldn't be pencilling Nielsen into the Top 4 quite yet.

I have high hopes for him and Dermott, but Dmen need time to develop. Hopefully with another 1.5 seasons (min.) one or both are ready to make the leap.

Outside of Rielly, who's the last homegrown Dman we've had on the Leafs?

The thing about some of the overrated dman prospects we've had like Percy and Finn is that they all had some weakness like being small, soft, or had bad skating. I look at Valiev and see he is 6'3, a decent skater, decent passer, and not soft so thinking he could be a bottom pairing guy didn't seem like much of a stretch.

Dermott is the dman I'm actually the highest on out of all the guys we have. Seems to have all the tools to be a modern day stay at home dman who moves the puck really well.

 

[White Shadow]

Goes to show you development is not just a straight line.

Percy and Finn were surefire NHLers at one point. Loov came over a couple of years ago and looked like a sure bet to be at least a bottom pairing guy. Valiev last year seemed to have a great season as a 1st year pro, and you say he's fallen way off.

Guess people shouldn't be pencilling Nielsen into the Top 4 quite yet.

I have high hopes for him and Dermott, but Dmen need time to develop. Hopefully with another 1.5 seasons (min.) one or both are ready to make the leap.

Outside of Rielly, who's the last homegrown Dman we've had on the Leafs?

Sadly it's Schenn 08 draft and Gunnarson 07 draft

 

[Joey Hoser]

Sadly it's Schenn 08 draft and Gunnarson 07 draft

We didn't draft Gardiner, but we got him fresh out of college, so you might as well count him.

 

[White Shadow]

We didn't draft Gardiner, but we got him fresh out of college, so you might as well count him.

We got Gards in the Lupul/Beauchemin deal in 2011.

 

[Caser]

Nikita Korostelev has been named among the last roster cuts for Russia U20 NT.

 

[RyanOhReally]

We got Gards in the Lupul/Beauchemin deal in 2011.

Hence the "we didn't draft" part

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Do you watch Marlies games regularly.., Sea..? Highlights, even....? Valiev has really stepped it up, from last season.. He's becoming stronger, defensively.. and has been on the + side of the +/- stats most of the season, so far..., because of it..

He's more ready right now, than Loov, Dermott and Corrado, imo...
Nielsen would be the one to challenge him, but Valiev's defense is better atm.. and Babs probably knows this..

I've watched more than a few. More during the recent downturn than the beginning when the Marlies were dominant, but at the very least during the last 20 ish games he has looked pretty bad.

Valiev is a +1. He's been hovering above and below EVEN all year, so it's not exactly a great indicator. If you discount the last game, he had 0 goals and was a -1 on the season. Then he finally scored a PP goal last game and got a +2 on the game. Also, while Valiev does fight occasionally, that one you pulled was the only fight he's had where there was some sort of purpose. The rest were pointless spats that would probably **** off Babcock.

I can't pull out evidence as well as you can because they don't have such things as "lowlights", so the best I have is my word. You can also look up some highlights of the Marlies games and watch the other team score and see some of it as well.

 

[White Shadow]

Hence the "we didn't draft" part

Taken out of context that may actually make sense. However, the original thread was a question regarding who was the last home grown defenseman we've had on the Leafs?

So no, Gardiner doesn't fit the question as he was Anaheim property AND playing NCAA for 3 years before he was in the Leaf system. This is in no way a home grown product.

Bozak, who we signed as a free agent right out of NCAA would be considered a home grown product.

 

[67Cup]

Joseph Woll had the shutout for the US in a 4-0 win over the Czechs (who are yet to score a goal in three warmup games.). Woll stopped a third period penalty shot attempt.

AFAIK, Bracco dod not score or garner any assists. No reports on how he played.

 

[SEER]

I've watched more than a few. More during the recent downturn than the beginning when the Marlies were dominant, but at the very least during the last 20 ish games he has looked pretty bad.

Valiev is a +1. He's been hovering above and below EVEN all year, so it's not exactly a great indicator. If you discount the last game, he had 0 goals and was a -1 on the season. Then he finally scored a PP goal last game and got a +2 on the game. Also, while Valiev does fight occasionally, that one you pulled was the only fight he's had where there was some sort of purpose. The rest were pointless spats that would probably **** off Babcock.

I can't pull out evidence as well as you can because they don't have such things as "lowlights", so the best I have is my word. You can also look up some highlights of the Marlies games and watch the other team score and see some of it as well.

I haven't seen as many full Marlies games this season, as I have in the past seasons..., so I will review again and apologize, if necessary, Sea.., but the clips I have seen of him show a more focused d-man.. Maybe you are right.. and I am missing some "lowlights"..

 

[Budsfan]

 

[Joey Hoser]

Taken out of context that may actually make sense. However, the original thread was a question regarding who was the last home grown defenseman we've had on the Leafs?

So no, Gardiner doesn't fit the question as he was Anaheim property AND playing NCAA for 3 years before he was in the Leaf system. This is in no way a home grown product.

Bozak, who we signed as a free agent right out of NCAA would be considered a home grown product.

It wasn't out of context.

Gardiner was drafted, went to college, and then joined the Leafs pro teams. It's was the exact same as if we had drafted him.

 

[White Shadow]

It wasn't out of context.

Gardiner was drafted, went to college, and then joined the Leafs pro teams. It's was the exact same as if we had drafted him.

OK, this isn't rocket science. If another team develops you for 3 years before you are traded to Toronto you are not home grown to Toronto.

 

[bobermay]

OK, this isn't rocket science. If another team develops you for 3 years before you are traded to Toronto you are not home grown to Toronto.

If you call Bozak home grown, you might as well call Gardiner home grown... although technically he was with another organization, he transitioned to pro with the Leafs.

 

[White Shadow]

Transitioned?

 

[LeafChief]

Transitioned?

Not sure why you're having such a difficult time with this.

Gardiner never played a game in the Anaheim system. Being that he was in the NCAA, he never even attended one of their training camps.

When the Leafs acquired him, he was still in the NCAA.

There is the chance that he may have attended one or two of Anaheim's summer development camps but that is all.

 

[White Shadow]

Not sure why you're having such a difficult time with this.

Gardiner never played a game in the Anaheim system. Being that he was in the NCAA, he never even attended one of their training camps.

When the Leafs acquired him, he was still in the NCAA.

There is the chance that he may have attended one or two of Anaheim's summer development camps but that is all.

Gardiner did attend a conditioning camp in 2010. To think that over the course of 3 years Gardiner didn't sit down with management, a nutritionist, a trainer, watched video, wasn't given any advice on what to work on is ludicrous.

An ELC doesn't preclude one from being developed. If Bracco was traded tomorrow would you not consider that he was initially developed in the Leafs system? It doesn't matter if the prospect plays in college, Europe, or major junior, he is home grown to whoever drafts him if he spends time in their system.

I would grant you guys like Lindros who refused to enter the Quebec system, were not home grown by their drafted team.

 

[LeafChief]

Gardiner did attend a conditioning camp in 2010. To think that over the course of 3 years Gardiner didn't sit down with management, a nutritionist, a trainer, watched video, wasn't given any advice on what to work on is ludicrous.

An ELC doesn't preclude one from being developed. If Bracco was traded tomorrow would you not consider that he was initially developed in the Leafs system? It doesn't matter if the prospect plays in college, Europe, or major junior, he is home grown to whoever drafts him if he spends time in their system.

I would grant you guys like Lindros who refused to enter the Quebec system, were not home grown by their drafted team.

Bracco plays in the OHL and is allowed to use the Leafs facilities. He is allowed to attend training camp. He is allowed to accept benefits from the team.

Are you unfamiliar with NCAA eligibility rules? It's OK to back down from an argument when you realize that you're wrong. No harm, no foul.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I haven't seen as many full Marlies games this season, as I have in the past seasons..., so I will review again and apologize, if necessary, Sea.., but the clips I have seen of him show a more focused d-man.. Maybe you are right.. and I am missing some "lowlights"..

Hopefully I'm wrong about Valiev, but the Marlies defense has been in shambles all year, and Valiev and Holl seem to be the worst out of the regulars (those two, Nielsen, Campbell, Dermott and Loov). It already was the Marlies' Achilles Heel last year, but it's probably worse this year... It's also stalling the offense and they don't have as much offensive firepower as it is, so as you can predict it's quite the mess sometimes.

 

[White Shadow]

Bracco plays in the OHL and is allowed to use the Leafs facilities. He is allowed to attend training camp. He is allowed to accept benefits from the team.

Are you unfamiliar with NCAA eligibility rules? It's OK to back down from an argument when you realize that you're wrong. No harm, no foul.

How about i make it easier for you and use Woll and Greenway as 2 examples of NCAA players that are Leaf prospects and in July attended the Leaf - wait for it - development camp.

 

[saltming]

Gardiner did attend a conditioning camp in 2010. To think that over the course of 3 years Gardiner didn't sit down with management, a nutritionist, a trainer, watched video, wasn't given any advice on what to work on is ludicrous.

An ELC doesn't preclude one from being developed. If Bracco was traded tomorrow would you not consider that he was initially developed in the Leafs system? It doesn't matter if the prospect plays in college, Europe, or major junior, he is home grown to whoever drafts him if he spends time in their system.

I would grant you guys like Lindros who refused to enter the Quebec system, were not home grown by their drafted team.

Not sure why you're having such a difficult time with this.

Gardiner never played a game in the Anaheim system. Being that he was in the NCAA, he never even attended one of their training camps.

When the Leafs acquired him, he was still in the NCAA.

There is the chance that he may have attended one or two of Anaheim's summer development camps but that is all.

Transitioned?

If you call Bozak home grown, you might as well call Gardiner home grown... although technically he was with another organization, he transitioned to pro with the Leafs.

Bracco plays in the OHL and is allowed to use the Leafs facilities. He is allowed to attend training camp. He is allowed to accept benefits from the team.

Are you unfamiliar with NCAA eligibility rules? It's OK to back down from an argument when you realize that you're wrong. No harm, no foul.

How about i make it easier for you and use Woll and Greenway as 2 examples of NCAA players that are Leaf prospects and in July attended the Leaf - wait for it - development camp.

I found this if it helps

Homegrown
players are defined as drafted players, plus those who were not drafted, but
made their NHL debuts with the team.

As per HF.com
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/8039/homegrown_talent_on_nhl_rosters/

 

[White Shadow]

I found this if it helps
As per HF.com
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/8039/homegrown_talent_on_nhl_rosters/

Thanks! Bozak would fit the latter but since Anaheim drafted Gardiner, the Leafs cannot classify him as homegrown talent.

 

[ILoveDraftDay]

I get it that this conversation is prospecr related but does this silly crap really need to be argued in the thread? Maybe we can measure our epeens in private?