Discounting goalies due to dmen & coaching

[Killion]

Almost every good goalie has more then a few screws loose. Comes with the territory when you're willing to be blasted by hard rubber at 90+ mph on a regular basis.

... wat?... I resemble that remark young man.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Yeah how bout you do that & tell me why you'd denigrate Buffalo's Roster & Coach Ted Nolan, pinning all of their success on Hasek..... then explain why in international competition Kenny Dryden wasnt able to adapt his game, had a real mental block when it came to dealing with the Cycle Game in deep.

Now dont get me wrong, Drydens performance in the 71 Playoffs one for the ages, spectacular thereafter throughout his NHL career but on the World Stage, not so much... and that included his time in the crease with the Canadian National Team prior to his pro career.... As for his time spent at Cornell, that school a total powerhouse under who would become somewhat an infamous, semi cartoon character in Ned Harkness. It was he who recruited Dryden, Ken opting to go the College rather than Major Junior route as is well known & documented. Harkness one of if not the greatest talent scouts & Coaches in NCAA Hockey History. Like a much nicer, kinder & gentler version of Scotty Bowman meets Sam Pollock of College Hockey.

If were talking NHL exclusively then yes, he would have made my cut & there are a few guys on my list who didnt face international competition so I simply "projected" based on their styles, headspaces. Dryden did play international & came up short. I call that a mental weakness, Achilles Heel back there in the crease. Plante had no such problems playing for a Junior team. Adapted. My criteria is universal. In 72 Dryden did adjust his game after getting lit up & played solidly enough but still let in some goals that he should not have..... finally, look at who he was playing with, behind in Montreal. Are you kiddin me? I dont like to think anyone is "dispensable" as it shows a lack of respect but realistically there were others at that time every bit as capable as Dryden at the NHL level who could have replaced him & performed equally well, rose to the occasion with equal aplomb, won all that silverware.

Hmmm... do you believe they could've won as many Cups with Bunny Larocque as their starter? He collected the same hardware as Dryden. Arguably, the post-Dryden Habs had an even stronger D core for a couple of seasons, with the Big 3 joined by Langway & Engblom, who both had Norris & All-Star nominations. They even brought in legit starter Denis Herron to play behind their All-Star D, but he kinda crapped out in the playoffs, didn't he? I'm not sure you could've just plugged in anyone behind Robinson & hoped for the best.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hmmm... do you believe they could've won as many Cups with Bunny Larocque as their starter? He collected the same hardware as Dryden. Arguably, the post-Dryden Habs had an even stronger D core for a couple of seasons, with the Big 3 joined by Langway & Engblom, who both had Norris & All-Star nominations. They even brought in legit starter Denis Herron to play behind their All-Star D, but he kinda crapped out in the playoffs, didn't he? I'm not sure you could've just plugged in anyone behind Robinson & hoped for the best.

Savard and Lapointe started to break down playing app. 45 games in 1979-80. Lemaire was never replaced.

 

[Killion]

Hmmm... do you believe they could've won as many Cups with Bunny Larocque as their starter? He collected the same hardware as Dryden. Arguably, the post-Dryden Habs had an even stronger D core for a couple of seasons, with the Big 3 joined by Langway & Engblom, who both had Norris & All-Star nominations. They even brought in legit starter Denis Herron to play behind their All-Star D, but he kinda crapped out in the playoffs, didn't he? I'm not sure you could've just plugged in anyone behind Robinson & hoped for the best.

.... Bunny & Denis huh? Where in my post did I state Kenny was a sieve? Maybe I should have bolded the passage that said "If were talking NHL exclusively then yes, he would have made my cut". And you seriously think I meant to suggest that Larocque, Herron or any other number of 2nd stringers or weak Starters couldve accomplished the same? No..... But certainly there were a few that could have. Bernie Parent & Tony Esposito to name just a couple.

 

[VMBM]

Poor Ken Dryden -- he never gets the benefit of the doubt in threads like this, yet Patrick Roy somehow always does even though he basically spent his entire career behind great teams as well (and Dryden won the international best-on-best he was in, while Roy lost).

I'm not arguing against the general point of the post, but the bolded I find somewhat redundant; if you mean the 1972 series (what else could it be?), many thought that Tony Esposito was the better Canadian goalie in the series (each played 4 games), although it was Dryden who played in the deciding 8th game. The general opinion also was that Tretyak outperformed him.

Too bad Dryden missed the 1976 Canada Cup (injured, I think).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Both Dryden and Esposito were workhorse goalies. One should have played 6 to 8 games in 1972.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I agree. The Sabres' lineup, esp. from about 1996-1999, is the late-90s' equivalent of the California Golden Seals of the late-70s, yet the Sabres had three solid winning seasons in a row, went to the Conference Finals once and the Cup Finals once. There was a reason for that, and it wasn't the coach, the system, the forwards, or the defencemen.

Poor Ken Dryden -- he never gets the benefit of the doubt in threads like this, yet Patrick Roy somehow always does even though he basically spent his entire career behind great teams as well (and Dryden won the international best-on-best he was in, while Roy lost).

Let's take a moment to look at how the Habs did before, without, and after Dryden:
1970: missed playoffs
Dryden joins in spring '71
1971: win Stanley Cup
1972: 108 points (3rd overall)
1973: 120 points (1st overall), win Stanley Cup
Dryden leaves
1974: 99 points (4th overall), lose 1st-round of playoffs
Dryden re-joins
1975: 113 points (tied 1st overall)
1976: 127 points (1st overall), win Stanley Cup
1977: 132 points (1st overall), win Stanley Cup
1978: 129 points (1st overall), win Stanley Cup
1979: 115 points (2nd overall), win Stanley Cup
Dryden retires
1980: 107 points (3rd overall), lose 2nd-round of playoffs

As for "if Dryden played for another team", how about the three years he played college hockey for Cornell Big Red? He went 76-4-1. And he went 16-7 one partial season in the AHL.

Let's show some respect.

absolutely.

people give far too much credit to Robinson, Savard and LaPointe over Dryden.

 

[blogofmike]

Dryden won in 1972, but he sure seemed like the third best goalie in a two team competition

 

[Asheville]

The Osgood Thread

 

[ManofSteel55]

... wat?... I resemble that remark young man.

I agree with the other guy, goalies in general are a bit out there. Seems like there is something you don't like about Hasek personally - he carried a below average team to the playoffs yearly. Carried a borderline playoff team to within one game of the finals. Won some cups and was the best of his era at doing his job - keeping the biscuit out of the net. You can say he had fundamental flaws - people always do with Hasek - but you can't deny that when it comes down to keeping the puck out of the net, nobody did it better than Dominik Hasek.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

Sabres in the 90's is easily on par defensively with how Boston Bruins were when they took the Cup some years ago. They were a really good team but after Lafontaine went down to injuries they lost some star-power beyond Hasek. I mean, look at the team they had going towards the cup, not intimidating names, but it's still a very good team with a lot of above average players and one of the leagues best defensive centers at the time (who btw was underperforming).

It's still a team sport, no matter how good some guys are or what the media hypes up to tell "stories" instead of talking about the game in-depth like the audience is some kids and the players are superheroes rather than just team-mates.

And i don't perticulary like Hasek, he was really good, made tons of flashy saves and could become a wall at times. But as a team-mate, he was questionable at times. Especially when it came to leaving the team and the whole deal with firing his coach.

 

[double5son10]

Dryden won in 1972, but he sure seemed like the third best goalie in a two team competition

Dryden gets dinged for being in the nets for Canada's two worst games AS A TEAM, games 1 & 4. Not saying he was great in either of those but the people in front of Dryden weren't doing their jobs on those days. Those games definitely hurt his numbers vis a vis the other two. People also seem to forget Esposito had his own meltdown in gm.5. Conversely, both Dryden & Esposito outplayed Tretiak in games 6-8. It was a mixed bag for all three.

 

[VanIslander]

... both Dryden & Esposito outplayed Tretiak in games 6-8. It was a mixed bag for all three.

Dryden, 25
Esposito, 29
Tretiak, 20

The youngster had nearly two decades of great hockey ahead of him.

 

[double5son10]

Dryden, 25
Esposito, 29
Tretiak, 20

The youngster had nearly two decades of great hockey ahead of him.

12 yrs=nearly two decades? OK. Not sure what your point is here.

 

[DannyGallivan]

There is not enough discussion about team aspects of goalie success.

Who seemed greater due to awesome dmen and/or coaching? (e.g., Would Dryden have been a HHOFer in Washington? Brodeur in Florida?)

Who was great despite a lack of dmen and coaching excellence? (e.g., Guy Hebert in Anaheim maybe or...)

The vast majority of goalie stats are team stats. Wins (an obvious one), shutouts, Goals Against Average... they are all heavily influenced by the team in front of the goalie (more so than the goals and assists of skaters are influenced). Even something like save percentage doesn't tell the whole story... it doesn't illustrate rebounds, difficulty of the shot, etc.

So, it is very difficult to judge a goalie on stats alone... more than other players. The Gilles Meloche example was great. I've always thought Dryden was overrated because of the team in front of him... if the Habs kept Rogie Vachon he may have done even better. Who knows.

 

[double5son10]

The vast majority of goalie stats are team stats. Wins (an obvious one), shutouts, Goals Against Average... they are all heavily influenced by the team in front of the goalie (more so than the goals and assists of skaters are influenced). Even something like save percentage doesn't tell the whole story... it doesn't illustrate rebounds, difficulty of the shot, etc.

So, it is very difficult to judge a goalie on stats alone... more than other players. The Gilles Meloche example was great. I've always thought Dryden was overrated because of the team in front of him... if the Habs kept Rogie Vachon he may have done even better. Who knows.

Vachon would've bettered Dryden's 6 Cups in 8 playoff appearances how? You think Montreal wins EVERY playoff w/ Vachon in net? I don't. Dryden was the superior goalie.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Vachon would've bettered Dryden's 6 Cups in 8 playoff appearances how? You think Montreal wins EVERY playoff w/ Vachon in net? I don't. Dryden was the superior goalie.

Do you think just for a second that maybe, just maybe, Montreal had a superior defensive team compared to the LA Kings of the 70's?

I lived and breathed the Habs in the 70's. I watched every televised game after Dryden's return. I don't remember him ever having to steal a game. It was rare for him to ever have to make a spectacular save. He was good. He was sound. He never had to be more. I respect his accomplishments and his place in history, but I think most of those were team accomplishments as opposed to individual accomplishments.

 

[double5son10]

Do you think just for a second that maybe, just maybe, Montreal had a superior defensive team compared to the LA Kings of the 70's?

I lived and breathed the Habs in the 70's. I watched every televised game after Dryden's return. I don't remember him ever having to steal a game. It was rare for him to ever have to make a spectacular save. He was good. He was sound. He never had to be more. I respect his accomplishments and his place in history, but I think most of those were team accomplishments as opposed to individual accomplishments.

Yes, goaltending is team dependent to a great degree. How many goalies who are in the HoF didn't play on a stacked team? Do you think Vachon is in there solely for his time w/ the Kings, or do you reckon that having a Cup while playing on a stacked team, or winning the inaugural CC while playing on a stacked team have something to do with it as well?

Clearly Dryden had the better team. And clearly he outperformed Vachon for the starters job when they were both on said team.

 

[VanIslander]

Actually, the Habs were struggling that season and the locker room was gloomy but then Vachon came and the team immediately started winning and spirits lifted BECAUSE of Vachon. This is according to to a player(Cournoyer).

Dryden was called up late to give Vachon some rest and played well too and the coach decided to let Dryden start and he played so well the coach ran with it. This is what the coach said.

So this 'clearly' is misleading at best:

...clearly he outperformed Vachon for the starters job when they were both on said team.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you think just for a second that maybe, just maybe, Montreal had a superior defensive team compared to the LA Kings of the 70's?

I lived and breathed the Habs in the 70's. I watched every televised game after Dryden's return. I don't remember him ever having to steal a game. It was rare for him to ever have to make a spectacular save. He was good. He was sound. He never had to be more. I respect his accomplishments and his place in history, but I think most of those were team accomplishments as opposed to individual accomplishments.

Canadiens were not going to win with Vachon in 1971. They won with Dryden.

Check the 1971 playoff hilites and opposing comments to define spectacular.

 

[double5son10]

Actually, the Habs were struggling that season and the locker room was gloomy but then Vachon came and the team immediately started winning and spirits lifted BECAUSE of Vachon. This is according to to a player(Cournoyer).

Dryden was called up late to give Vachon some rest and played well too and the coach decided to let Dryden start and he played so well the coach ran with it. This is what the coach said.

So this 'clearly' is misleading at best:

Yes, clearly outplayed, as in he was demonstrably the better goalie after he was called up. Dryden got the call on the final day roster moves were made, March 8. Here's the Canadiens goalies respective stats after the call-up:

Dryden 6-0-0, .957 Sv% (211-202), 1.65 GAA, 327 min
Vachon 1-3-1 (and a no decision where he was injured and replaced by Dryden, the famed game where Ken faced brother Dave), .904 Sv% (188-170), 3.24 GAA, 333 min
Myre 1-2, .881 Sv% (126-111), 5.00 GAA, 180 min

And no, Dryden wasn't just facing creampuffs on the schedule. Four of Dryden's were against playoff bound teams, including 47 & 41 save games against NYR and a 35 save game in Chicago. Vachon's three losses were all against playoff teams, his lone win against a playoff team being the Western Conf., losing record Flyers. Dryden's games were split evenly between Home & Road, whereas Vachon had 5 of his 6 starts at home. Last game of the season, at home, Vachon got lit up for six by the Bruins. Honestly, looking at those numbers, who would you start come playoff time?

 

[Killion]

I agree with the other guy, goalies in general are a bit out there. Seems like there is something you don't like about Hasek personally - he carried a below average team to the playoffs yearly. Carried a borderline playoff team to within one game of the finals. Won some cups and was the best of his era at doing his job - keeping the biscuit out of the net. You can say he had fundamental flaws - people always do with Hasek - but you can't deny that when it comes down to keeping the puck out of the net, nobody did it better than Dominik Hasek.

No, never assume anything, as in actual fact quite the opposite, I like Hasek's personality, make-up & character, his interests off the ice some I share.... high IQ guy, no dummy & plenty to admire. My issue with him is strictly technical in terms of style of play. Never cared for goalies making high risk maneuvers the way he did. Completely unorthodox . Thats not something you can teach (its innate, an innate talent) & its extremely difficult at times for anyone to play in front of Defending, transitioning the game from Defence to Offence. He played it way outside of the box & I totally get why he's so venerated however I did see some serious holes in his game that were at times exploited just not enough times for most guys facing him to catch on. They were facing "a Legend" by that time, squeezing their sticks too hard, not being patient enough. Panicking. Hasek you had to wait out, be patient, he'd drop, blink first. Many will disagree & thats fine, but that my opinion on the matter & not about to be changing it. Finally I wouldnt agree with that obviously, "nobody did it better". Ah, ya, plenty did. Not a huge fan of painter Jackson Pollocks works either & that to me was what Hasek was as a goalie. Complete abstractionists just throwing it down on the ice just as Pollock threw paint down on the canvas. So sorry, not digging it.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Canadiens were not going to win with Vachon in 1971. They won with Dryden.

Check the 1971 playoff hilites and opposing comments to define spectacular.

I'll give Dryden his due in the '71 Cup, which was a few years before my time. Trust me, he never stole another playoff game after that. Didn't have to.

 

[Tarantula]

Dryden who played in the deciding 8th game. The general opinion also was that Tretyak outperformed him

As he did during the 1976 New Years Eve game as well. Dryden put in a performance for the ages during the 1971 playoffs, but was never the spectacular goalie after, who really could be after that. Very good but I think 1971 alone put him a category higher then the rest of his career merited.

 

[Doctor No]

It's hard to be the spectacular goalie on a strong favorite, though.

Only real options are "hold serve" or fail.