Did The 1980s Have Surprisingly Weak Wingers In The NHL?

[GlitchMarner]

There are several things that make me think this decade may have had comparatively weak wingers.

Let's start with this: only three of the top 12 highest scoring forwards of the decade were wingers (nine were centres) even though wingers outnumber centres by a 2:1 ratio on a line.


NHL.com - Stats


Next, The HOH list of the top 60 wingers of all-time only features six wingers that I associate with the 1980s: Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Jari Kurri, Michel Goulet, Rick Middleton.

Guy Lafleur was at his best in the 1970s but was still relevant in the 1980s.

Luc Robitaille and Brett Hull are included as well, but Hull was really at his best in the 1990s and Luc Robitaille was more of an '80s and '90s guy.

If we count Lucky Luc, there are six players who can be associated with the 1980s that made the list.

Sergei Makarov didn't start playing in the NHL until '89-'90 and doesn't stand out as conspicuous NHL player from the 1980s. Balderis and Krutov were basically irrelevant in the NHL.


Meanwhile, the following players are featured that can be associated with the 1990s or 1990s and 2000s:

Jaromir Jagr
Teemu Selanne
Brett Hull
Pavel Bure
Paul Kariya
Mark Recchi
Brendan Shanahan
John LeClair
Theoren Fleury


Then there are the following players who can be associated with the 2000s or 2000s and 2010s:

Alexander Ovechkin
Jarome Iginla
Martin St. Louis
Marian Hossa
Patrik Elias
Daniel Alfredsson
Ilya Kovalchuk


The 2010s decade isn't over yet and Patrick Kane, Jamie Benn, Phil Kessel, Corey Perry, Nikita Kucherov and other prominent wingers from the decade are still active.


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/top-players-of-all-time-lists.1487867/



In HockeyOutsider's VsX comprehensive summary, noteworthy 1980s NHL wingers other than the six included on the top 60 wingers of all-time list don't fare all that well in VsX 7 tables.


The VsX 7 scores of Lanny McDonald and Rick Middleton are lower than those of a number of wingers who aren't in the HHOF, including Pavol Demitra, Phil Goyette, Alex Kovalev, Alexei Yashin, Vincent Lecavalier, Alex Mogilny, Doug Weight, Brad Richards, Keith Tkachuk, Patrik Elias, Ziggy Palffy, Dany Heatley, John LeClair, Theo Fleury, Daniel Alfredsson, Marian Hossa, Markus Naslund and Jeremy Roenick.

I do expect Alfredsson, Hossa, Roenick, Fleury and Elias to be inducted eventually.

Steve Larmer's VsX score is also lower than those of the following players:

Bondra
Brind'Amour
Whitney
Amonte
Tanguay
Marc Savard
Damphousse

Glen Anderson's VsX 7 score is equal to Bondra's and lower than the scores of all the other players listed right above ^.

Joe Mullen's VsX score is a little lower than Anderson's.

Dave Taylor's is 1.4 lower than Mullen's.

Dino Ciccarelli's VsX 7 score is marginally lower than Taylor's.

Dave Andreychuk's score is slightly worse than Ciccarelli's.

Mike Gartner's VsX 7 is a little bit below Andreychuk's.


Five out of the six players mentioned above are in the HHOF.


Brian Propp's VsX 7 score is lower than those of Martin Straka, Steve Sullivan, Miroslav Satan and Todd Bertuzzi.

Brian Bellows' score is below those of Petr Nedved, Glen Murray, Shane Doan and Jason Pominville.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/


If we get into adjusted point totals based on League-wide scoring levels, as per Hockey Reference, here are the career-highest adjusted point totals of certain wingers (do keep in mind that seasons were 80 games long in the 1980s):

Teemu Selanne: 122
Paul Kariya: 115
Theo Fleury: 105
Patrik Elias: 104
Marian Hossa: 102
John LeClair: 102
Ilya Kovalchuk: 101
Daniel Alfredsson: 101
Mark Recchi: 101
Brendan Shanahan: 92

Joe Mullen: 91
Steve Larmer: 90
Dave Andreychuk: 90
Dino Ciccarelli: 87
Dave Taylor: 86
Glenn Anderson: 83
Brian Bellows: 83
Lanny McDonald: 81
Mike Gartner: 81
Brian Propp: 77

Click to read more...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If we get into adjusted point totals based on League-wide scoring levels, as per Hockey Reference, here are the career-highest adjusted point totals of certain wingers (do keep in mind that seasons were 80 games long in the 1980s):

Teemu Selanne: 122
Paul Kariya: 115
Theo Fleury: 105
Patrik Elias: 104
Marian Hossa: 102
John LeClair: 102
Ilya Kovalchuk: 101
Daniel Alfredsson: 101
Mark Recchi: 101
Brendan Shanahan: 92

Joe Mullen: 91
Steve Larmer: 90
Dave Andreychuk: 90
Dino Ciccarelli: 87
Dave Taylor: 86
Glenn Anderson: 83
Brian Bellows: 83
Lanny McDonald: 81
Mike Gartner: 81
Brian Propp: 77

a counter-argument, arguing interlockout wingers vs 80s wingers, is whether there were too many great '80s centers/too few great late 1990s/early 2000s centers, which makes '80s wingers look bad in comparison.

mullen's 110 points, mats naslund's 110 points, ciccarelli's top ten points finishes, ogrodnick and loob's career years, those were 6th-9th place finishes behind gretzky, trottier, stastny, hawerchuk, savard, dionne, messier, mario, yzerman (and bossy/kurri/coffey). why should those be 85-90 points adjusted while milan hejduk's 4th place finish behind forsberg, naslund, and thornton is 110 adjusted points.

or to put another way, ziggy palffy's best years were in the 95-100 adjusted points range. he finished 5th, 8th, and 10th in those years, finishing behind a lesser group of guys than his '80s comparables. palffy gets 95 adjusted points for his 10th place finish in 2003, behind a 6-10 of demitra, glen murray, 37 year-old mario in 67 games, and dany heatley in his second year. meanwhile, john ogrodnick gets 84 adjusted points for his 7th place finish, tied with savard, directly ahead of federko; career years by brent sutter, gartner, paul maclean, and tonelli; stastny, nicholls, rookie mario, and kent nilsson. ogrodnick gets more than 10 fewer adjusted points, even though he is beating the demitra and murray career years of his era.

that said, the '80s sure had more hit and run peak seasons by wingers, relative to the jagr/bure/selanne era and the one that came after it.

 

[Bluesguru]

I'd emphatically say no. A high scoring era with wingers that would knock your head off. Absolutely not.

 

[GlitchMarner]

a counter-argument, arguing interlockout wingers vs 80s wingers, is whether there were too many great '80s centers/too few great late 1990s/early 2000s centers, which makes '80s wingers look bad in comparison.

mullen's 110 points, mats naslund's 110 points, ciccarelli's top ten points finishes, ogrodnick and loob's career years, those were 6th-9th place finishes behind gretzky, trottier, stastny, hawerchuk, savard, dionne, messier, mario, yzerman (and bossy/kurri/coffey). why should those be 85-90 points adjusted while milan hejduk's 4th place finish behind forsberg, naslund, and thornton is 110 adjusted points.

or to put another way, ziggy palffy's best years were in the 95-100 adjusted points range. he finished 5th, 8th, and 10th in those years, finishing behind a lesser group of guys than his '80s comparables. palffy gets 95 adjusted points for his 10th place finish in 2003, behind a 6-10 of demitra, glen murray, 37 year-old mario in 67 games, and dany heatley in his second year. meanwhile, john ogrodnick gets 84 adjusted points for his 7th place finish, tied with savard, directly ahead of federko; career years by brent sutter, gartner, paul maclean, and tonelli; stastny, nicholls, rookie mario, and kent nilsson. ogrodnick gets more than 10 fewer adjusted points, even though he is beating the demitra and murray career years of his era.

that said, the '80s sure had more hit and run peak seasons by wingers, relative to the jagr/bure/selanne era and the one that came after it.

It's possible HR's adjusted point totals overrate the scoring of leading point scorers during the dead puck era. That is an idea I've come across previously.

However, a number of notable 80s wingers have VsX 7 numbers that aren't all that flattering as well. I did ask @Hockey Outsider a question in his summary thread that I feel is relevant to this matter.

 

[jarek]

The 80s was an era of GOAT centers that carried inferior wingers to all-time relevancy. Propp, Shutt, Barber to a lesser extent, etc.

Why did it happen? I think it's more appropriate to say that the centers were just that good as opposed to the wingers being that bad. I believe the wingers who played in that era were the best there were at the time, they just got grossly overshadowed by GOAT centers and a couple of legendary wingers.

 

[Theokritos]

I don't think the 1970s were much better outside of Guy Lafleur.

I mean, in 1972-1973 you had Bobby Hull, Valery Kharlamov and Aleksandr Yakushev all playing outside the NHL. And the best wingers in the NHL were ... Yvan Cournoyer? Post-prime Frank Mahovlich?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good point theo. At some point in the late 60s, perhaps because of expansion, perhaps not, most of the best Canadian forwards seemed to all be converted to center.

Even through the dead puck era, the best wingers in the league were largely European.

 

[JackSlater]

Good point theo. At some point in the late 60s, perhaps because of expansion, perhaps not, most of the best Canadian forwards seemed to all be converted to center.

Even through the dead puck era, the best wingers in the league were largely European.

I think that this is the main thing. Canada had shifted to producing primarily centres at forward, at the elite level anyway, and there wasn't yet the big influx of European wingers that we saw in the 90s.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good point theo. At some point in the late 60s, perhaps because of expansion, perhaps not, most of the best Canadian forwards seemed to all be converted to center.

Even through the dead puck era, the best wingers in the league were largely Euro weak on facepean.

Actually pre expansion, early expansion, for various reasons centers would be converted to a wing position out of junior or soon after entering the NHL. Prime examples Dickie Moore, Bobby Hull, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire(converted back) to name the most obvious.

Starting towards the 1980s you saw a number of hybrid center/wing regulars. Pierre Mondou, Ryan Walter, Kirk Muller, Vincent Damphousse, etc

European centers tended to be weak on faceoffs. Exceptions Ulf Nilsson, Peter Stastny, Tomas Gradin, a few others, stayed at center.