Did Chicago surpass Red Wings?

[Pavels Dog]

There was a point where Holland knew he wasn't going to sign either of them, from the news articles it seems both broke down in the summer before they hit free agency. At that point he should have traded them.

Even if that is true (doubt it), it's hard to trade away 2 of your top 6 forwards when you are still icing a contender-level team. It's debatable that Holland should have traded off more future assets to go all-in during 09-12, when we still had Lids. But he chose to go in an approach that set us up better for the future.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Here's one right here: http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/06/free-agent_forward_valtteri_fi.html literally saying "Free-agent forward Valtteri Filppula taking wait-and-see approach to future with Detroit Red Wings"

And nowhere does it indicate Filppula was gone. They hadn't even gone through contract negotiations at that point, yet.

So we are debating whether or not Holland should have just bit the bullet and gotten a draft pick out of him? Is that what the main gripe is?

 

[Shaman464]

nowhere in that article did filppula outright obviously say he wanted to test the free agent market

that's just typical media rehortic for a player currently negotiating a new contract

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...assic-alumni-showdown-personnel-babcock-drops

Babcock stated that Ken Holland had offered Valtteri Filppula a seven-year contract prior to the start of free agency, but Filppula chose to test the market anyway

Again, the evidence shows both before and after he left that he didn't want to sign before July 1st and he wanted to test free agency. And to prove that Holland thought this was likely rumors of Detroit going after Weiss started to pop up quick and ended with him signed pretty quickly after free agency, which would point to Holland believing that Filp wasn't coming back to Detroit.

And nowhere does it indicate Filppula was gone. They hadn't even gone through contract negotiations at that point, yet.

So we are debating whether or not Holland should have just bit the bullet and gotten a draft pick out of him? Is that what the main gripe is?

The debate is Holland vs Bowman when it comes to handling assets. My point is that with Filp and Hudler it was pretty clear both wanted to test free agency. By losing them for nothing I contend that it was poor asset management. Bowman has become famous for trading players that are either in store for big raises or who have no interest in staying in Chicago, and has been able to maintain a contending team while doing so.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

"It was pretty clear" from a clump of quotes that don't even give a specific timeline of events.

Alright. The two teams aren't even in the same ballpark, and getting Filppula or Hudler for a pick isn't the difference in our team contending or not right now.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

I wouldn't say surpass, as we're talking about two different teams and two different time frames. And, as has been said, we did it with two different cores, Chicago has done it with only one, so far. But, you can definitely see some similarities in the Wings of 1995-2003 and the Hawks from 2009 through to today.


I would say that Chicago is the only team that's even comparable to the Wings in this regard in this present era.

 

[Shaman464]

"It was pretty clear" from a clump of quotes that don't even give a specific timeline of events.

Alright. The two teams aren't even in the same ballpark, and getting Filppula or Hudler for a pick isn't the difference in our team contending or not right now.

Because top-6 forwards only get 'a pick', not like they can be traded for prospects or roster players.

Seriously, the Wings have let many assets go for stop gaps or worse for nothing. Everyone on here complains that Detroit doesn't have the scoring or the defense to contend, but given all of the players that have left or have been traded for rentals it's not possible that KH could have instead found longer term solutions?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Because top-6 forwards only get 'a pick', not like they can be traded for prospects or roster players.

Seriously, the Wings have let many assets go for stop gaps or worse for nothing. Everyone on here complains that Detroit doesn't have the scoring or the defense to contend, but given all of the players that have left or have been traded for rentals it's not possible that KH could have instead found longer term solutions?

Okay, despite not even knowing the timeline for Hudler and Filppula's departure, what is a reasonable ask for trading their rights? Honest question.

I'm so sick of getting sucked into this stupid argument every season. Especially considering my main contention is the team has failed to grab a top-pairing defenseman to help an aging Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

 

[Shaman464]

Okay, despite not even knowing the timeline for Hudler and Filppula's departure, what is a reasonable ask for trading their rights? Honest question.

I'm so sick of getting sucked into this stupid argument every season. Especially considering my main contention is the team has failed to grab a top-pairing defenseman to help an aging Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I wouldn't have traded their rights, I would have traded them before the season when it was becoming clear (especially for Hudler, and less so with Flip). An ask for them would be defensive prospects and middle picks.

 

[PuckDynasty]

I wouldn't have traded their rights, I would have traded them before the season when it was becoming clear (especially for Hudler, and less so with Flip). An ask for them would be defensive prospects and middle picks.

This is still a thing? Isn't it time to move on? You really think we would have gotten multiple picks and prospects for either of those guys with expiring contracts? If only the Wings had just taken Jagr over Keith Primeau!!!

 

[Shaman464]

This is still a thing? Isn't it time to move on? You really think we would have gotten multiple picks and prospects for either of those guys with expiring contracts? If only the Wings had just taken Jagr over Keith Primeau!!!

Yeah, because giving Holland a pass on being a terrible manager of assets is the hallmark of a true fan. And it's a thing because the nature of the discussion is that Bowman has made trades of roster players that has extended Chicago's contention window dramatically.

 

[PuckDynasty]

Yeah, because giving Holland a pass on being a terrible manager of assets is the hallmark of a true fan. And it's a thing because the nature of the discussion is that Bowman has made trades of roster players that has extended Chicago's contention window dramatically.

It's not about giving Holland a pass, more about being realistic based on the facts presented. The Hawks and the Wings aren't in the same position in any way. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The Hawks have an excellent core, most of whom are still in their prime or haven't even entered it yet. Bowman has done a masterful job to be sure. It's easier to look like a genius when you have multiple superstars in their prime. They can make average players look well above average. How many defenseman looked like bonafide top pair guys next to Lidstrom?

Is it possible we could have acquired a superstar with a mid level pick that we would have gotten for Filppula? Perhaps. More likely a player who would have been bottom 6 forward or a 5th or 6th defenseman. That's what happens when you have extended years of success. You don't get high draft picks and you lose depth to make significant trades. The Wings have been fortunate to remain competitive and not a god awful unwatchable team like Edmonton, Carolina, Buffalo, and numerous others who don't make the playoffs but aren't getting any better.

Too many fans have been spoiled and have unrealistic expectations. The Wings aren't going to churn out Hall of Famers every few years and compete for the Cup every season. Is Holland perfect. Probably not. But I'm a fan and I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Fans, despite what they think, aren't better or smarter than the actual professionals. That's why we're fans.

 

[Shaman464]

It's not about giving Holland a pass, more about being realistic based on the facts presented. The Hawks and the Wings aren't in the same position in any way. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The Hawks have an excellent core, most of whom are still in their prime or haven't even entered it yet. Bowman has done a masterful job to be sure. It's easier to look like a genius when you have multiple superstars in their prime. They can make average players look well above average. How many defenseman looked like bonafide top pair guys next to Lidstrom?

Is it possible we could have acquired a superstar with a mid level pick that we would have gotten for Filppula? Perhaps. More likely a player who would have been bottom 6 forward or a 5th or 6th defenseman. That's what happens when you have extended years of success. You don't get high draft picks and you lose depth to make significant trades. The Wings have been fortunate to remain competitive and not a god awful unwatchable team like Edmonton, Carolina, Buffalo, and numerous others who don't make the playoffs but aren't getting any better.

Too many fans have been spoiled and have unrealistic expectations. The Wings aren't going to churn out Hall of Famers every few years and compete for the Cup every season. Is Holland perfect. Probably not. But I'm a fan and I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Fans, despite what they think, aren't better or smarter than the actual professionals. That's why we're fans.

A draft pick that becomes a bottom 6 or middle d-man is still better than having nothing though. Especially in an NHL where paying a bottom D-man over 4 million a year isn't the best cap management. Having young players that make guys like Ericsson and Abdelkader expendable means that you have better cap flexibility and can either pass on them or have leverage to sign them at more reasonable amounts and terms.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, because giving Holland a pass on being a terrible manager of assets is the hallmark of a true fan. And it's a thing because the nature of the discussion is that Bowman has made trades of roster players that has extended Chicago's contention window dramatically.

What trades, outside of the Saad trade (which was a great job by Bowman and I can't argue), are you talking about?

Shipping out Ladd, Buff, Leddy, Sharp, Campbell, etc. weren't master strokes to widen a team's window. Most of those were trading away players because they couldn't afford them and taking it behind the woodshed on value to free up the cap space.

Unless you think a three month trade chain of Patrick Sharp and Stephen Johns to Trevor Daley to Rob Scuderi is some kind of brilliant maneuver.

Chicago is on top of the world because they sucked long enough to land a couple of stars and hit on two great Ds in the early-mid rounds.

Everyone seriously needs to pump the brakes on Stan Bowman. He's done a good job, but its not anything that any GM worth his salt wouldn't do given the core and the resources (see Ken Holland in the late 90s)

 

[PuckDynasty]

A draft pick that becomes a bottom 6 or middle d-man is still better than having nothing though. Especially in an NHL where paying a bottom D-man over 4 million a year isn't the best cap management. Having young players that make guys like Ericsson and Abdelkader expendable means that you have better cap flexibility and can either pass on them or have leverage to sign them at more reasonable amounts and terms.

Except that the Wings aren't trading Ericsson or Abdelkader. Like it or not, that's not how the Wings roll. Most home grown guys stay for the duration of their career. That's how Holland and Ilitch do things. That's why they offered Flip a long term deal. They also worship players who are loyal and reward them accordingly, often times, not in their best financial interest. But, that's the Red Wing way. It's nice when it works, but most of the time, we're stuck with guys that are no longer effective with contracts that don't reflect that. So when Flip shopped around and came back around to get his deal with the Wings, they said see ya.

Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to make moves when they're done in your head and not based on reality or it isn't your money.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

A draft pick that becomes a bottom 6 or middle d-man is still better than having nothing though. Especially in an NHL where paying a bottom D-man over 4 million a year isn't the best cap management. Having young players that make guys like Ericsson and Abdelkader expendable means that you have better cap flexibility and can either pass on them or have leverage to sign them at more reasonable amounts and terms.

Is it though?

Would the Wings REALLY be better if they had another Mitch Callahan and Adam Almqvist in the system who won't make the NHL?

I mean, as it stands, with them flushing assets down the toilet and not squeezing every ounce of blood out of the stone, they've lost two players to waivers (second and third round picks, no less) and stand to lose at least another two between Sproul, Frk, and Jensen.

The Wings would not be better off with having gone against their core values with Flip and Huds.

And hell, if Stephen Weiss didn't come here and immediately injure himself, you wouldn't be *****ing about Filppula. You're complaining about not getting anything for him because the guy we moved on to,who was basically veteran Canadian Filppula, was a dud due to injury.

If Weiss had remotely worked out, you wouldn't be saying one word about Filppula. And you're only complaining about Hudler because he went to Calgary and had himself a career year that he would never have had in Detroit.

And while the Wings didn't have cap flexibility this year, it's because they had Datsyuk hurt in a way where they missed the timing on utilizing the LTIR with him and they had all young callups who didn't make any sense to fill in Pavel Datsyuk's roster spot and Johan Franzen decided he wanted to give it two games before LTIRetiring which screwed up the timing on that.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Yes they have surpassed. The last 10 years, Chicago owns Detroit. You have to start going back quite a bit further to find a timeframe where Detroit wins and the further you go the less relevant it becomes. All-time, Detroit wins. Recent, Chicago landslides.

 

[Ezekial]

yes they have surpassed. the last 10 years, chicago owns detroit. You have to start going back quite a bit further to find a timeframe where detroit wins and the further you go the less relevant it becomes. All-time, detroit wins. Recent, chicago landslides.

08-09...

The question isn't who's the better team now, that's pretty obvious.

 

[Classicnamesup]

08-09...

The question isn't who's the better team now, that's pretty obvious.

So the first 3 years (06-09) the Wings were better. The last 7 years the Hawks are better. How do the Wings win in that situation? 7>>3

 

[chances14]

So the first 3 years (06-09) the Wings were better. The last 7 years the Hawks are better. How do the Wings win in that situation? 7>>3

we're talking about the wings dating back to when the playoff streak started, not just the last 10 years

 

[Classicnamesup]

And in my post I said I wasn't doing that. Cherry picking your time frame might give you a feel good result but I prefer to be more objective

 

[chances14]

And in my post I said I wasn't doing that. Cherry picking your time frame might give you a feel good result but I prefer to be more objective

So cherry picking to make the wings look worse is okay but cherry picking to make them look better is bad???

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And in my post I said I wasn't doing that. Cherry picking your time frame might give you a feel good result but I prefer to be more objective

And objectively, the Red Wings have lost an all-history player that is irreplaceable in the short term and their elite PPG centers have slowed down due to an accumulation of injuries and simple aging.

I mean, the league is built that teams go in cycles. What exactly does it matter that Chicago with all of its stars in their primes is better than Detroit right now that has past its prime stars and some players who are stars in waiting?

 

[Pavels Dog]

And in my post I said I wasn't doing that. Cherry picking your time frame might give you a feel good result but I prefer to be more objective

You cherrypicked the best timeframe Chicago's had in ages

 

[Red Stanley]

And in my post I said I wasn't doing that. Cherry picking your time frame might give you a feel good result but I prefer to be more objective

It's just trying to compare legacies. Chicago had no other recent legacy to compare with and Detroit hasn't had one in half a decade. The only team Chicago would be comparable to in recent years is LA. Nobody should waste their time trying to compare Detroit from the past 6 years with Chicago from the same time frame as there is no comparison.

 

[Classicnamesup]

You cherrypicked the best timeframe Chicago's had in ages

I didn't realize the current time is cherry picking. 24 years, how did you come up with that unusual number?

It's just trying to compare legacies. Chicago had no other recent legacy to compare with and Detroit hasn't had one in half a decade. The only team Chicago would be comparable to in recent years is LA. Nobody should waste their time trying to compare Detroit from the past 6 years with Chicago from the same time frame as there is no comparison.

Which I addressed in my post. Historically DET wins.