Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

[notbias]

Just wait until this coming season my friend. Make no mistake about it. There's a very fair chance that the Leafs could miss the playoffs.

There is no indication that will happen, it is just wishful thinking from some "fans".

The same people saying Leafs only show up in the regular season are now doubling back and saying they don't show up in the regular season.

 

[stickty111]

We don't need this again. Babcock was terrible and still is. Lets not make up stuff to say he was right.

 

[pucksakes666]

This team has to miss playoffs or eles it’s Groundhog Day for the season.

 

[DarkKnight]

He may not have been right, but considering the same deficiencies still exist under Keefe as they did under Babcock that people vowed would never be the case, he wasn't wrong either.

And truthfully, I still think Babcock's long game and vision for this team is/was better than what Keefe's is.

If Keefe decided to run Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner pairings again, I'd have absolutely no issue with it. May actually be for the best, to be honest.

I said it at the time, Babcock had to go because he had become the lightning rod and we would never find out what was truly going on with this group until he left. That we’ve seen the same problems, that Hyman also became Keefe’s “son”, that the GM actually moved towards more grit, it does suggest the problem wasn’t the coach necessarily. Again, he had to go, but I’m not sure this guy we have is any upgrade, nor are any of the problems solved. Same shit different pile.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Can’t wait for them to miss the playoffs and a house cleaning happens

They won't miss the playoffs.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Babcock lost to Boston.

Keefe is losing to Blue Jackets and Habs.

This is it right here

 

[Stonehands1990]

We don't need this again. Babcock was terrible and still is. Lets not make up stuff to say he was right.

Was he terrible though? He had 1 bad stretch of 30ish games. I disproved of his methods as well but let’s not pretend he was a colossal failure

 

[Walshy7]

He had it so right that 31 other franchises, including one starting from scratch didn’t want him

 

[Buds17]

I prefer balance in the lineup and wouldn't put the superior winger on a line with the superior centre more often than not. I think there's more to the team's struggles at times though beyond how this particular decision shakes out.

 

[frog]

Mathews and marnet on the same line makes no sense

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

They're both equally bad for their poor (lack of) adjustments and stubbornness in the playoffs.

This past playoffs it seemed like Keefe's playbook was to "not be Babcock" but he made mistakes that were just as bad or worse.

Great points...I often wonder if they do things just to shit on Babs and say they found a better way of doing it...just for the sake of it. I hated Babs TBH...I mean really hated him because I thought he was so full of himself and it showed in some of his decision making (Marleau's minutes). But I will say after seeing another coach with this core 4...he had a better plan than to just run them ragged all the time like Keefe does.

I don't like either one of these coaches but if I had to bet my life on one of them winning it all it would be Babs. And...that makes me sick to my stomach because of the person Babs is. He still says the whole Marner thing was a misunderstanding...

 

[Confucius]

Yea, but there is a big difference between stat padding against Detroits and Buffalos of the world and actually doing it in the playoffs against other playoff teams that are zeroing on you every single night. They like it easy, but when it's tough they disappear. Besides, playing them 22+ minutes a night ain't helping. So at least Babs was right not to play them that much. They can put up all the fancy regular season numbers they want but till they get it done in the playoffs it will matter little. Even I, someone who has been watching pretty much every single regular season game for years will tune out the regular season this coming season. Their numbers next season during the regular season are going to be absolutely meaningless.

Well to some people thats the case for every team in the regular season. They claim the whole regular season is a waste of time so why does anybody watch?

 

[ottomaddox]

I know we always complained on how Babcock had his lines setup, and there was this big deal that he wasnt playing Matthews with Marner. But after a season and half of watching Keefe do the opposite of what Babcock did in his tenure. I am wondering if Babcock was right after all!!!! I will explain.

Matthews scored 40+ goals without Marner correct? Who were his linemates? Hyman and Nylander.

Tavares scored 40+ goals with Marner correct? Never did it before correct?

PP started to struggle when Keefe put all his eggs in one basket when he took over. Worked for a bit but teams figured them out.

So here is my question......are the Leafs a better team with Matthews-Nylander and Tavares-Marner combos?

Does it truly give us to threats, because last year I didnt like what we saw.

Also, would it be wise putting those pairs on separate PPs? Load it up on 5 on 3s. But keep it spread out otherwise. It provides 2 different looks to opposing PKs.

What are you thoughts?

The truth is always somewhere in between.

 

[Dreakmur]

We don't need this again. Babcock was terrible and still is. Lets not make up stuff to say he was right.

He wasn’t terrible. He upset the stars, and that’s just as much their lack of maturity as it was his lack of understanding that generation.

 

[mcleex]

When Keefe first came in he would juggle the lines and make changes in-game

Eventually that stopped and he became another Babcock

 

[yubbers]

No.

Keefe might not be the answer, but that doesn’t change how awful of a coach Babcock was.

He set a franchise point record but hey....

Ignore that and his entire resume I guess. He was meanie that yelled at ppl! Haha

 

[yubbers]

A GM should have a coach that sees eye to eye.

Babcock had a vision that was thrown out the door the day dubas was hired.

Babcock's vision of:

• Compete level
• 50-50 puck battle
• playing the right way
• being first to the puck
• being on the right side of the puck
• playing body
• etc...

are somethings that seasoned NHL coaches desire. Heck Tampa changed their "offense only" outlook after getting embarassed by CBJ. It was a total team buy in.


Babcock's worst season as a coach here (excluding tank season) he had:

• Petan, Barrie, Sparks, Ceci

Babcock's approach to the game is way different, I think his approach is a combination of Trotz's defense and Bourdreau's offense -> i.e. very demanding on players. No half ass BS on either side of the ice, short shifts and full throttle 100% shifts. Babcock also ran very short practices so that players can use that energy during the game instead of practices.


Only problem with Babcock was he was stubborn where he would not ice Matthews in game 7 to get goals when were were playing from behind in the 2nd sereis against Boston.

I think Babcock was not a bad coach, he just did not get to realize his vision because he didn't get the players he would have like to execute his systems.

When Lou was here he got Babcock: Hainsey, Polak, Andersen, Boyle, Plakanec

Hainsey was here to help Rielly, Polak was here to insulate both Rielly/Gardiner and take more PK minutes, Boyle and Plakanec both defensive players were gifts to the roster for showing promise in regular season.

Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander were all very young and still learning; including Rielly.


Enter Dubas:
Babcock's 1 season with Dubas as a GM: Players he got babcock due to cap crunch

Barrie, Ceci, Petan, Sparks, Trevor Moore, etc....

Only formidable add from Dubas was Muzzin IMO during babcock's time here. And JT from UFA


Dubas enforcerd his vision brought in his coach (a rookie); and the results are for everyone to see.
Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander are now seasoned players and not rookies or ELC players. Tavares is another forward taking in significant portion of the cap.

Bottom Line:
I don't think we ever got to see Babcock's vision fully implemented

We have seen Dubas' vision fully implemented for a season and a half and this upcoming season will make it 2 and a half season (unless dubas and keefe are fired mid-season)

A GM should have a coach that sees eye to eye.

Babcock had a vision that was thrown out the door the day dubas was hired.

Babcock's vision of:

• Compete level
• 50-50 puck battle
• playing the right way
• being first to the puck
• being on the right side of the puck
• playing body
• etc...

are somethings that seasoned NHL coaches desire. Heck Tampa changed their "offense only" outlook after getting embarassed by CBJ. It was a total team buy in.


Babcock's worst season as a coach here (excluding tank season) he had:

• Petan, Barrie, Sparks, Ceci

Babcock's approach to the game is way different, I think his approach is a combination of Trotz's defense and Bourdreau's offense -> i.e. very demanding on players. No half ass BS on either side of the ice, short shifts and full throttle 100% shifts. Babcock also ran very short practices so that players can use that energy during the game instead of practices.


Only problem with Babcock was he was stubborn where he would not ice Matthews in game 7 to get goals when were were playing from behind in the 2nd sereis against Boston.

I think Babcock was not a bad coach, he just did not get to realize his vision because he didn't get the players he would have like to execute his systems.

When Lou was here he got Babcock: Hainsey, Polak, Andersen, Boyle, Plakanec

Hainsey was here to help Rielly, Polak was here to insulate both Rielly/Gardiner and take more PK minutes, Boyle and Plakanec both defensive players were gifts to the roster for showing promise in regular season.

Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander were all very young and still learning; including Rielly.


Enter Dubas:
Babcock's 1 season with Dubas as a GM: Players he got babcock due to cap crunch

Barrie, Ceci, Petan, Sparks, Trevor Moore, etc....

Only formidable add from Dubas was Muzzin IMO during babcock's time here. And JT from UFA


Dubas enforcerd his vision brought in his coach (a rookie); and the results are for everyone to see.
Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander are now seasoned players and not rookies or ELC players. Tavares is another forward taking in significant portion of the cap.

Bottom Line:
I don't think we ever got to see Babcock's vision fully implemented

We have seen Dubas' vision fully implemented for a season and a half and this upcoming season will make it 2 and a half season (unless dubas and keefe are fired mid-season)

This. It's almost like they did it on purpose it was so obvious. You committed to Babcock long term turn..... Then you turn around and hire a rookie GM with polar opposite vision? There was zero chance any seasoned coach is gonna let some woke millennial tell them to change. never mind Babcock.

MLSE literally sabotaged their own plan that was yielding results. It made no sense then and now we're in the I told you so phase of the rebuild.

And ppl still defend Dubas. It's amazing really. Eat your crow already. He's been a disaster like many of us said. This was really easy to predict.

 

[yubbers]

He wasn’t terrible. He upset the stars, and that’s just as much their lack of maturity as it was his lack of understanding that generation.

Toronto needs a strict dad. This city turns kids into soft playboys

 

[PromisedLand]

This. It's almost like they did it on purpose it was so obvious. You committed to Babcock long term turn..... Then you turn around and hire a rookie GM with polar opposite vision? There was zero chance any seasoned coach is gonna let some woke millennial tell them to change. never mind Babcock.

MLSE literally sabotaged their own plan that was yielding results. It made no sense then and now we're in the I told you so phase of the rebuild.

And ppl still defend Dubas. It's amazing really. Eat your crow already. He's been a disaster like many of us said. This was really easy to predict.

Shanahan was fed lies and he fell for it OR Shanny himself is a snake oil salesman feeding BS to MLSE board

 

[A1LeafNation]

There is a reason no one will touch him.

 

[ShaneFalco]

There is a reason no one will touch him.

Yeah he had his glory days now he's just a self-aborbed coach who can't adapt and takes no responsibility

 

[nuck]

OP was not asking do we want Babcock back, just was his use of the big 4 possibly more efficient? I say yes, not in homage to special Babcockian wisdom but because many other coaches would not put the extreme shoot first guy with the extreme pass first guy except occasionally to shake things up. Babcock would not have played Tavares 18:12 and Willie 16:36 either. I don't feel like Keefe has the same opinion/confidence level in what JT and Willie can do as Babs did.

 

[yubbers]

Shanahan was fed lies and he fell for it OR Shanny himself is a snake oil salesman feeding BS to MLSE board

Being 'progressive' is taking insane, risky gambles according to Shanny and Kyle. They'll go down as one of the worst management squads we've seen. Look what they're squandering.

 

[CapspaceKiller]

For all the Babcock blah, blah...and what he wanted, the team pretty much had the exact same flaws come playoff time for the most part. Keefe actually had them winning tight defensive minded games this year for the first time ever. People can talk about what Babcock wanted from the team and how he wanted them to play, but they never actually did it.

I don't like either coaches though and believe the team needs somebody way better at adjustments.

 

[mulefarm]

Should have kept Lou and Babs! Would have played past the 1st round.