GDT: Devils vs. Flyers - 7:00 PM - MSG+

[TheUnseenHand]

this board cracks me up. the guy is putting up a better than .5PPG, but instead of showcasing him for a trade or pairing him with a rock, it's best that he spends most games in the press box. brilliant!

There was really never anyone for him to push out of the lineup prior to the TDL though. We actually had an OK defense.

 

[MartyOwns]

There was really never anyone for him to push out of the lineup prior to the TDL though. We actually had an OK defense.

not only did butcher fill a need (offense, specifically from the back end as well as powerplay competency) but we could've sold him for a nice return to a playoff team needing a powerplay specialist who could play sheltered minutes.

there's no way you leave someone who has value sitting for weeks on end. it was poor asset management plain and simple.

 

[devilsblood]

I’m saying which guy that was named would you put Bratt over as part of the core? If the answer is none then where’s the line you draw for who’s a core player, is Sharangovich one now? I like both Shara and Bratt but I’m a bit of a harder marker when it comes to describing either as a core guy at this point. He didn’t even name Severson fwiw.

I think there are levels.

Really no one is truly untradeable, it's just highly unlikely a trade would ever occur in which Hughes is traded for equal value.

But I think Hughes is on the top tier. Nico is next. Then Smith, and though because he is a D, maybe he's holds more value, but if he was somehow in a trade for Seth Jones where Columbus wanted a young d-man back, that kind of makes sense. I think Bratt and Shara could be on that next level. I'd put Zacha there as well, though I'm sure people here have different opinions on that.

 

[devilsblood]

not only did butcher fill a need (offense, specifically from the back end as well as powerplay competency) but we could've sold him for a nice return to a playoff team needing a powerplay specialist who could play sheltered minutes.

there's no way you leave someone who has value sitting for weeks on end. it was poor asset management plain and simple.

Now I've always been pretty critical of Butch, but he has shown he can be very effective in a sheltered role, I just think with a small rookie also on the left side it makes it difficult to provide him sheltered minutes. I mean someone has to play on the PK.

At this point I'm hoping his end of season play leads to him being picked by Seattle, thus we keep Bastian.

 

[MartyOwns]

At this point I'm hoping his end of season play leads to him being picked by Seattle, thus we keep Bastian.

i'm good with that. probably best for butcher too

 

[njdevils1982]

Now I've always been pretty critical of Butch, but he has shown he can be very effective in a sheltered role, I just think with a small rookie also on the left side it makes it difficult to provide him sheltered minutes. I mean someone has to play on the PK.

At this point I'm hoping his end of season play leads to him being picked by Seattle, thus we keep Bastian.

then how do we jetsam johnsson !

 

[TheUnseenHand]

not only did butcher fill a need (offense, specifically from the back end as well as powerplay competency) but we could've sold him for a nice return to a playoff team needing a powerplay specialist who could play sheltered minutes.

there's no way you leave someone who has value sitting for weeks on end. it was poor asset management plain and simple.

Perhaps he doesn't have that much value? I certainly wouldn't trade for him or his contract.

 

[devilsblood]

then how do we jetsam johnsson !

If we could somehow give them Johnson that would be fantastic, but I'm not seeing how that gets done.

I think we just need to cross our fingers and hope he rebounds in terms of production.

 

[njdevils1982]

If we could somehow give them Johnson that would be fantastic, but I'm not seeing how that gets done.

I think we just need to cross our fingers and hope he rebounds in terms of production.

or…..13th forward….watch and wait for an injury opening slot

free pizza and nachos and an nhl salary just to watch the game

 

[MartyOwns]

Perhaps he doesn't have that much value?

oh agreed, he doesn't. it's hard to have value when you only play in 30% of your team's games, that's what i was saying.

 

[My3Sons]

oh agreed, he doesn't. it's hard to have value when you only play in 30% of your team's games, that's what i was saying.

While Butcher can work for the right team, for whatever reason, the NJ staff saw Kulikov and Murray as offering a better chance to win than Butcher. I don't think it's fair to ask a staff to play a guy just to showcase him over a long stretch of games. Now, given the poor showing that NJ had this season you can certainly argue that one of Murray or Kulikov or Vats could have sat at times for a game to play Butcher. Kulikov and Murray are very different style of defenders than Butcher and I don't see most teams sitting those sorts of players for a Butcher because Butcher is going to need sheltering defensively in ways those two did not. I think the emergence of Smith is what ultimately doomed Butcher since Smith took the sheltered minutes and PP time. It's hard for me to get too worked up over it. Had Butcher played 25 games I'm skeptical the results change much if at all.

 

[MartyOwns]

While Butcher can work for the right team, for whatever reason, the NJ staff saw Kulikov and Murray as offering a better chance to win than Butcher. I don't think it's fair to ask a staff to play a guy just to showcase him over a long stretch of games. Now, given the poor showing that NJ had this season you can certainly argue that one of Murray or Kulikov or Vats could have sat at times for a game to play Butcher. Kulikov and Murray are very different style of defenders than Butcher and I don't see most teams sitting those sorts of players for a Butcher because Butcher is going to need sheltering defensively in ways those two did not. I think the emergence of Smith is what ultimately doomed Butcher since Smith took the sheltered minutes and PP time. It's hard for me to get too worked up over it. Had Butcher played 25 games I'm skeptical the results change much if at all.

butcher played 9 games before the TDL. how much would kulikov have returned if he played 9 games?

 

[My3Sons]

butcher played 9 games before the TDL. how much would kulikov have returned if he played 9 games?

No, I'm not suggesting it's a trade value issue. I think the staff just saw Kulikov as giving NJ a better chance to win on balance than Butcher. As others have noted, Murray and Kulikov have both played reasonably well outside of Murray's post covid illness stretch. My point was more that playing Butcher just to make him more attractive to another team isn't realistic for more than a game or two. Beyond that, NJ's problems this season went well beyond the third pairing on defense. It's a shame that Nico was sidelined for so long. It might have been different enough to matter.

 

[Triumph]

The Devils were exceptionally fortunate with injuries to their LHD (and RHD). Butcher just didn't get in there.

 

[MartyOwns]

No, I'm not suggesting it's a trade value issue. I think the staff just saw Kulikov as giving NJ a better chance to win on balance than Butcher. As others have noted, Murray and Kulikov have both played reasonably well outside of Murray's post covid illness stretch. My point was more that playing Butcher just to make him more attractive to another team isn't realistic for more than a game or two. Beyond that, NJ's problems this season went well beyond the third pairing on defense. It's a shame that Nico was sidelined for so long. It might have been different enough to matter.

ah ok i misunderstood, my fault. well i hope you're wrong about that, because that would turn this from an asset management failure to a coaching competency problem. we were out of the playoff picture months ago, we needed offense, our powerplay sucked, and multiple guys were coming back from covid although i don't remember if any defensemen got it). regardless i think we should've had a lot more rotation (forwards and goalies as well) throughout the year, not just butcher. once the season was over this should've been an early training camp in terms of player evaluation for next year. the oh well

 

[My3Sons]

ah ok i misunderstood, my fault. well i hope you're wrong about that, because that would turn this from an asset management failure to a coaching competency problem. we were out of the playoff picture months ago, we needed offense, our powerplay sucked, and multiple guys were coming back from covid although i don't remember if any defensemen got it). regardless i think we should've had a lot more rotation (forwards and goalies as well) throughout the year, not just butcher. once the season was over this should've been an early training camp in terms of player evaluation for next year. the oh well

It's hard to say how the coaching was impacted by the season. My guess is they just sort of defaulted to the "name" players as much as they could until after the trade deadline. Why else run an ineffective Subban out on the PP over and over. I'll give the entire team a pass for this season. If they are still terrible on the PP and PK after a full offseason and training camp and a 20 game stretch to open next season I'd make changes. Beyond Butcher, I just think the team's veterans just aren't good enough and small incremental improvements won't move the needle until Jack, Nico, Zacha, Bratt, Shara, Kuokkanen, and one or two others become regular every game contributors.

 

[NJ Fan 12]

No post-game polls anymore?

 

[glenwo2]

No post-game polls anymore?

Miss my threads already?

and no. Not for awhile.

Unless someone else does them...but I don't see anyone else doing anything.

 

[TheDuke93]

Miss my threads already?

and no. Not for awhile.

Unless someone else does them...but I don't see anyone else doing anything.

I need a fully report by Monday as to what happened lol.

 

[NJ Fan 12]

Young goalies tend to be inconsistent though from what we’ve seen. I’m confident he’ll work this out. I’m not worried about him, he has shown he has the skill and potential, and barely has over 100 games played, including 2 freakish seasons and 1 in which he was injured, contracted COVID and was affected by it pretty bad from his sayings, and where backup goaltending was so bad that he had to be overplayed. I’m not judging Blackwood this season.

I didn't realize his save percentage had dipped below .900 but like you I would tend to grade his season on a curve. Barring a top veteran becoming available,, would think he enters camp as a starter.

In terms of the long-term future, if Walstedt is as good as some project it wouldn't be out of reality for the Devils to draft him.

 

[devilsblood]

or…..13th forward….watch and wait for an injury opening slot

free pizza and nachos and an nhl salary just to watch the game

I know people don't like him because he hasn't produced this season, but why not hope he regains his 40 point form?

 

[NJDevs26]

not only did butcher fill a need (offense, specifically from the back end as well as powerplay competency) but we could've sold him for a nice return to a playoff team needing a powerplay specialist who could play sheltered minutes.

there's no way you leave someone who has value sitting for weeks on end. it was poor asset management plain and simple.

I mean I wasn’t a fan of Tennyson over Butcher at the beginning of the season but nobody makes lineup decisions the first month of the season thinking of pumping up trade value. They played Tennyson then Vatanen over what would have been Butcher on his off side for the most part.

 

[HersheyBob27]

Shara is earning(or rather I think has earned) the "core player" status.

Bratt earned it with the past 3 seasons(plus this 4th) with his overall play.

The line I draw is this :

above the line : Jack, Nico, Bratt, Shara, Sevs, Ty, and maybe Zacha

on the line : Wood, Kuokk, and Zacha(he does fluctuate between being above and on the line),

below the line : Bastian, Mcleod, Merkley, Boqvist, Andreas Johnsson, Connor Carrick, Matt Tennyson, Butcher, Wedgewood, Dell

Wood has been way more valuable than Bratt this year

 

[My3Sons]

Wood has been way more valuable than Bratt this year

To you, sure. Others may see it differently.

 

[Guttersniped]

He's a Flyer, so screw him.

That said - it has to suck to be one of the real gamers and be stuck on a team with disappearing Jake Voracek and JVR as your other pillars of talent. Even Couts is a numbskull. Guy does deserve better.

You’re right about everybody except one player. Couturier has a ridiculously high hockey IQ, he had in when he came into the league. He was getting Selke votes right off the bat.

(That’s why it always drove me crazy when you used him as comparable for Zacha because he is a numbskull.)