Devils Team Discussion (current team/player news and notes) ‎PART XII

[Bcap88]

so the new flavor of the week is carter vs ryder instead of marty vs cory

 

[MadDevil]

The argument should really be Ryder vs Brunner. At least then we're talking about two similar players. Ryder is an older, more proven scorer who is streaky, isn't particularly fast, and is pretty much useless when not scoring. Brunner is a younger, less proven scorer who is streaky, has some speed, but is also pretty much useless when he's not scoring.

 

[Khione]

Some of the best players in the playoffs are just playing their game
some players on the other hand have nervous conditions, anxiety etc and just cant handle the pressure
remember flash Gordon? he used to throw up in the bull pen before the Yanks brought him in to pitch in big games
how about Mike Peluso's emotions late in game 4 of the finals...basket case !

Nailed it.

Some players play their game in pressuerpoint while other crumble. The ones we think are clutch dont crumble. They dont elevate their game just playing the way they always does.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Your way of thinking says that a run with two out in the first in a 0-0 game is the same as a two out run in a 0-0 game in the ninth as well as a basket in a tied game in the first being the same as a basket with two minutes left in the 4th. Just not true. But what do I know I only played two D1 sports.

they count the same. if you would've scored that run in the first, you wouldn't need it in the 9th. True or false?

why do you consistently bring up the fact that you played sports? the fact that you did has no bearing on whether or not you know more than me (or other people) on a specific topic.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

This is pretty simply. If clutch play actually exists, there should be players who outperform their regular season statistics in the playoffs. We already know in baseball that clutch players don't exist (http://www.fangraphs.com/community/the-elusive-clutch-hitter-2/ , http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2013/10/23/why-clutch-isnt-really-a-thing/).

Let's find five players in hockey who exhibit real clutch ability in the playoffs over their career.

 

[SeidoN]

so the new flavor of the week is carter vs ryder instead of marty vs cory

to be fair one of those has been going on for a day, while the other over a year

 

[devilsblood]

so the new flavor of the week is carter vs ryder instead of marty vs cory

Yes it is the current topic.

 

[devilsblood]

The argument should really be Ryder vs Brunner. At least then we're talking about two similar players. Ryder is an older, more proven scorer who is streaky, isn't particularly fast, and is pretty much useless when not scoring. Brunner is a younger, less proven scorer who is streaky, has some speed, but is also pretty much useless when he's not scoring.

See I think Brunner's speed and puck handling effect the game even when he's not scoring. Or at least you see Brunner out there, while Ryder really goes quiet when he's not scoring.

On the other hand, Ryder is a much more proven goal scorer. So if we are talking pure production, Ryder is your guy.

But I'd still take Brunner over Ryder if the choice is on the table. I do like the speed and puck carrying elemants he brings. And I also think there is still plenty of room for him to grow as a player. He is still very new to the NHL, let alone the Devils. This will be his first complete training camp in the league.

 

[tycobb]

This is pretty simply. If clutch play actually exists, there should be players who outperform their regular season statistics in the playoffs. We already know in baseball that clutch players don't exist (http://www.fangraphs.com/community/the-elusive-clutch-hitter-2/ , http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2013/10/23/why-clutch-isnt-really-a-thing/).

Let's find five players in hockey who exhibit real clutch ability in the playoffs over their career.

Briere

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Daniel Briere

Regular season: 0.326 goals per game, 0.747 points per game
Playoffs: 0.427 goals per game, 0.935 points per game


I think we can agree thats one example. now go find 4 more.

 

[devilsblood]

This is pretty simply. If clutch play actually exists, there should be players who outperform their regular season statistics in the playoffs. We already know in baseball that clutch players don't exist (http://www.fangraphs.com/community/the-elusive-clutch-hitter-2/ , http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2013/10/23/why-clutch-isnt-really-a-thing/).

Let's find five players in hockey who exhibit real clutch ability in the playoffs over their career.

Mark Messier

 

[devilsblood]

Martin Brodeur

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Mark Messier

Regular season: 0.395 goals per game, 1.07 points per game
Playoffs: 0.46 goals per game, 1.25 points per game

 

[Zippy316]

Claude Lemieux

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Claude Lemieux

Regular season: 0.312 goals per game, 0.647 points per game
Playoffs: 0.341 goals per game, 0.675 points per game


nope.

 

[Zippy316]

Claude Lemieux

Regular season: 0.312 goals per game, 0.647 points per game
Playoffs: 0.341 goals per game, 0.675 points per game


nope.

I think this is a little unfair because some players score at the right times in the playoffs, see Henrique. While Lemieux completely upped his game in the playoffs, I don't think anyone would deny that.

 

[The 29th Pick]

how about Dog Gilmour

 

[devilsblood]

Claude Lemieux

Regular season: 0.312 goals per game, 0.647 points per game
Playoffs: 0.341 goals per game, 0.675 points per game


nope.

I think the example of Claude, and other guys like Justin Williams add an interesting element to the discussion.

Do isolated stretches of extreme "clutch" play surrounded by stretches of playoff scoring below reg season averages still make for a clutch player?

Or can a player become clutch? Or perhaps lose his clutch ability?

And in Williams case we can/should factor in all the OT playoff goals he has.

 

[devilsblood]

throughout history is playoff scoring on par with regular season scoring?

 

[StnTwnDevil]

The magnitude of the goal has less to do with 'clutch' for me than the timing of it.

People get nervous at big moments in the game. Some players succumb to those nerves and their play suffers. Others are able to put away those nerves. Few thrive on these nerves and elevate their game. That last category is 'clutch'.

That's it for me.. the ability to battle your nerves.

Exactly, and thats why a game winning goal in the first is not even close to the same as a game winning goal in the 3rd. A player in the 3rd is very aware the next goal can win the game and therefore feels more pressure/nerves. A player in the first, unless he is Nostradamus, has no idea that the 1st goal of the game would hold up, and therefore is not dealing with the same pressure as in the 3rd period situation.

I do find this discussion a bit strange. We all are human here, right?

 

[The Devil In I]

Mark Messier

Regular season: 0.395 goals per game, 1.07 points per game
Playoffs: 0.46 goals per game, 1.25 points per game

Looking at it those numbers without context makes his "clutchness" seem huge. But if you look into it...he had his 7 old man years in the regular season to drag down those averages, while not making the playoffs in any of those 7 years (not allowing his old years to drag down his playoffs PPG).

Adjusted (getting rid of last 7 years) -

Regular season: 1.22 points per game
Playoffs: 1.25 points per game

 

[Marshal Rochambeau]

Mike Cammalleri

Regular Season: .353 gpg, .750 ppg
Playoffs: .531 gpg, 1.00 ppg

 

[BJD]

Sean bergenheim

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Mike Cammalleri

Regular Season: .353 gpg, .750 ppg
Playoffs: .531 gpg, 1.00 ppg

Camm has played in 32 playoff games. not enough sample size IMO.

 

[StnTwnDevil]

I think the example of Claude, and other guys like Justin Williams add an interesting element to the discussion.

Do isolated stretches of extreme "clutch" play surrounded by stretches of playoff scoring below reg season averages still make for a clutch player?

Or can a player become clutch? Or perhaps lose his clutch ability?

And in Williams case we can/should factor in all the OT playoff goals he has.

Im sure guys can go cold some months or years without getting any big game goals. It'd be like anything else. Guys can go cold scoring in general.

I also don't know about all of you, but similar to the Regular season, I wouldn't call all goals in the playoffs clutch. More pressure is felt in general in the playoffs, but though that 1st period playoff goal has more pressure than any reg season 1st period goal, it still is not the same as the escalating pressure felt in a tied playoff game in the 3rd period. As I keep saying, its mostly situational. All Playoffs vs Regular season stats will tell you is if a player is a better performer in the playoffs or the regular season. I guess you can then break it down into: is the player more clutch in the playoffs or the reg season?