Speculation: Devil's Advocate

[rowf]

Let's say the hockey gods smile upon us and give us the #1 pick in this upcoming draft,
what would be the possible return we could get for auctioning off the pick instead of
McDavid or Eichel?

2 or 3 more 1st round picks and a slew of blue chip prospects?

Similarly, what if we don't get top 3? What would we have to give up... all 3 of our 1st rounders this year and Reinhart?

Click to read more...

 

[thomas vanek]

yes, thats an awesome idea to give away the player that this team has been craving for 20 years for more of the same. Bravo on this awesome thread.

 

[Husko]

1) Bluechip prospect (like a Reinhart, Ekblad, Bennett level)
2) One bluechip player about to break into the NHL/just started in the NHL (Galchenyuk type)
3) One young player ready to break out into a superstar (Myers)
4) First and second round pick that year
5) A couple more first round picks
6) A nice tool player/prospect that you make them throw in (Larsson?)

So, if the Sabres were putting the package together, I'd demand:
Reinart, Grigorenko or Girgensons, Myers, all three firsts, one or two seconds, first round pick in 2016, Larsson, and maybe some more fun stuff. That package probably gets me to the table if I'm in control of #1 overall.

So I want that, from another team.

 

[EichHart]

1) Bluechip prospect (like a Reinhart, Ekblad, Bennett level)
2) One bluechip player about to break into the NHL/just started in the NHL (Galchenyuk type)
3) One young player ready to break out into a superstar (Myers)
4) First and second round pick that year
5) A couple more first round picks
6) A nice tool player/prospect that you make them throw in (Larsson?)

So, if the Sabres were putting the package together, I'd demand:
Reinart, Grigorenko or Girgensons, Myers, all three firsts, one or two seconds, first round pick in 2016, Larsson, and maybe some more fun stuff. That package probably gets me to the table if I'm in control of #1 overall.

So I want that, from another team.

lololllolloollololol

 

[ZZamboni]

Not trading away the #1, #2 or #3 overall pick. No team will.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

Guys, contract limit is 50.

 

[rowf]

yes, thats an awesome idea to give away the player that this team has been craving for 20 years for more of the same. Bravo on this awesome thread.

Comparable, the Nordiques made one of the biggest trades in NHL history in 1992 trading Eric Lindros' rights to the Flyers in exchange for six players (Steve Duchesne, Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Kerry Huffman, Mike Ricci and Chris Simon), two draft picks and $15 million. In hindsight, I would take Forsberg over Lindros straight up.

 

[SundherDome]

First off its hypothetical, so lay off negativity. He asked a simple question, and the answer is enough to cripple the other team making the trade. I am in no way saying that this team used as an example would do this but ...
To San Jose:
2015 1st overall
2016 4th round pick
Jerome Leduc
Colin Jacobs

To Buffalo:
Logan Couture
Tomas Hertl
Mirco Mueller
Nikolay Goldobin
2015 and 2016 Firsts
2017 2nd
Crippled....

 

[Husko]

First off its hypothetical, so lay off negativity. He asked a simple question, and the answer is enough to cripple the other team making the trade. I am in no way saying that this team used as an example would do this but ...
To San Jose:
2015 1st overall
2016 4th round pick
Jerome Leduc
Colin Jacobs

To Buffalo:
Logan Couture
Tomas Hertl
Mirco Mueller
Nikolay Goldobin
2015 and 2016 Firsts
2017 2nd
Crippled....

Why even include that garbage? Did you mean to include players that will never play an NHL game or were you trying to add something of substance?

 

[Gras]

Why even include that garbage? Did you mean to include players that will never play an NHL game or were you trying to add something of substance?

Probably clear contract space.

 

[Takeo]

Let's say the hockey gods smile upon us and give us the #1 pick in this upcoming draft,
what would be the possible return we could get for auctioning off the pick instead of
McDavid or Eichel?

2 or 3 more 1st round picks and a slew of blue chip prospects?

Similarly, what if we don't get top 3? What would we have to give up... all 3 of our 1st rounders this year and Reinhart?

So far, this supposed "rebuild" consists of a slew of slightly above average prospects who have demonstrated little actual development. A truly elite prospect is exactly what they crave. No chance they trade away the top pick. And absolutely yes they should offer the 1sts plus Reinhart to which the other team would quickly say no.

 

[rowf]

Say if Pittsburgh tries to free up some cap space and offer Malkin, Pouliot, Kapenen and a first for the 1st overall, it's gotta make you think for a couple of minutes no?

 

[David Byrne]

Say if Pittsburgh tries to free up some cap space and offer Malkin, Pouliot, Kapenen and a first for the 1st overall, it's gotta make you think for a couple of minutes no?

If McDavid truly is a can't-miss prospect - and, by all accounts, he is - then absolutely not. I'll take the 18-year-old (likely) franchise-changing superstar over that package and be giddy about it. As great as Malkin is, he'll be 29 by next year and already in his 10th season. His career is roughly half over. McDavid's got, give or take, a 20-year career ahead of him if he matches the hype. And most, if not all, of those two decades would presumably be spent in a Sabres uniform.

 

[Wisent42]

Not trading away the #1, #2 or #3 overall pick. No team will.

Yeah, no that never happens. Like in 99 when Tampa didn't trade their 2nd overall to Vancouver, allowing them to draft both Sedins. Right?

That was a special situation, sure, given that the twins value would probably not be the same if they weren't on the same team, but it happens. Not often, but it happens.

I don't know how other teams prospect pools look, but let's say a team is dried up in their prospect department and can fill it by trading away a top-3 pick for a slightly later pick in the first round and a combination of maybe a future first round, a couple of later round picks and prospects? No matter how good a prospect is, there is no sure thing. Again, look at the 99-draft where Patrik Stefan was picked first overall. His numbers were never impressive in the NHL and then his career ended due to injury. If Atlanda/Winnipeg could go back and redo that draft, you don't think they would have traded that pick for a nice package?

And, as mentioned, the Lindros-trade. As "the next one", he was as much a "sure thing" as Connor McDavid, but in retrospect no one would do that trade.

While I agree that these things don't normally happen, they do happen. Because of the circumstances in play. Do we see it coming this year? No. But that doesn't mean you can't hypotheticly discuss the matter.

 

[SmytheKing]

Yeah, no that never happens. Like in 99 when Tampa didn't trade their 2nd overall to Vancouver, allowing them to draft both Sedins. Right?

That was a special situation, sure, given that the twins value would probably not be the same if they weren't on the same team, but it happens. Not often, but it happens.

I don't know how other teams prospect pools look, but let's say a team is dried up in their prospect department and can fill it by trading away a top-3 pick for a slightly later pick in the first round and a combination of maybe a future first round, a couple of later round picks and prospects? No matter how good a prospect is, there is no sure thing. Again, look at the 99-draft where Patrik Stefan was picked first overall. His numbers were never impressive in the NHL and then his career ended due to injury. If Atlanda/Winnipeg could go back and redo that draft, you don't think they would have traded that pick for a nice package?

And, as mentioned, the Lindros-trade. As "the next one", he was as much a "sure thing" as Connor McDavid, but in retrospect no one would do that trade.

While I agree that these things don't normally happen, they do happen. Because of the circumstances in play. Do we see it coming this year? No. But that doesn't mean you can't hypotheticly discuss the matter.

Lindros was traded almost a year after he was drafted. The situation is apples and oranges and a totally different time. He was a guy who said he wasn't going to play for Quebec, and they drafted him anyway. He sat out the whole year and refused to play for them. They didn't trade him because they got a really good deal. They traded him because he was about to go back into the draft and they needed to get something.

...and comparing trading the #2 so they could get one of the Sedin twins is silly. Neither of them were close to being considered in the same world as this year. Just because people have traded the first overall doesn't mean anything. You have to compare similar cases. You can't just say, well Gretzky got traded so why couldn't this pick? It doesn't work that way. COULD Buffalo trade the pick? Sure. Would it be incredibly stupid to? Yes. Without question. What is the upside exactly? To stock up on prospects? How many do you need exactly? If they traded the pick or even picked up the phone, you should just stop being a fan of the team right now because that shows a lack of quality leadership.

Buffalo needs to get quality vets who aren't taking all the valuable minutes from the young kids, hire a coach that knows how to teach them what to do instead of one who teaches them how to "heart", and actually develop the kids instead of making them wing it. Seriously, outside of Gionta, who on that team has experienced any sort of success? The kids literally have no one to learn from.

Trading the #1 overall will not happen.

 

[dotcommunism]

Yeah, no that never happens. Like in 99 when Tampa didn't trade their 2nd overall to Vancouver, allowing them to draft both Sedins. Right?

That was a special situation, sure, given that the twins value would probably not be the same if they weren't on the same team, but it happens. Not often, but it happens.

I don't know how other teams prospect pools look, but let's say a team is dried up in their prospect department and can fill it by trading away a top-3 pick for a slightly later pick in the first round and a combination of maybe a future first round, a couple of later round picks and prospects? No matter how good a prospect is, there is no sure thing. Again, look at the 99-draft where Patrik Stefan was picked first overall. His numbers were never impressive in the NHL and then his career ended due to injury. If Atlanda/Winnipeg could go back and redo that draft, you don't think they would have traded that pick for a nice package?

And, as mentioned, the Lindros-trade. As "the next one", he was as much a "sure thing" as Connor McDavid, but in retrospect no one would do that trade.

While I agree that these things don't normally happen, they do happen. Because of the circumstances in play. Do we see it coming this year? No. But that doesn't mean you can't hypotheticly discuss the matter.

Part of the issue with the Sedins is that they wanted to play for the same team and that played a role in how that draft played out. (Also, Tampa traded first overall, not second) http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=lebrun_pierre&id=4883674

Still, we're talking about a draft that was 15 years ago. The world of NHL scouting has changed quite dramatically since then. Furthermore, there's now this little thing called the salary cap that has a somewhat minor effect on team building. What happened 15 years ago simply is not relevant in the modern landscape of the NHL.

Can you find a team that's traded away a top three pick in the salary cap era? The answer is no (and no, the Seguin pick does not count, Toronto did not know it'd be the #2 pick when they traded it)

 

[Wisent42]

Lindros was traded almost a year after he was drafted. The situation is apples and oranges and a totally different time. He was a guy who said he wasn't going to play for Quebec, and they drafted him anyway. He sat out the whole year and refused to play for them. They didn't trade him because they got a really good deal. They traded him because he was about to go back into the draft and they needed to get something.

...and comparing trading the #2 so they could get one of the Sedin twins is silly. Neither of them were close to being considered in the same world as this year. Just because people have traded the first overall doesn't mean anything. You have to compare similar cases. You can't just say, well Gretzky got traded so why couldn't this pick? It doesn't work that way. COULD Buffalo trade the pick? Sure. Would it be incredibly stupid to? Yes. Without question. What is the upside exactly? To stock up on prospects? How many do you need exactly? If they traded the pick or even picked up the phone, you should just stop being a fan of the team right now because that shows a lack of quality leadership.

Buffalo needs to get quality vets who aren't taking all the valuable minutes from the young kids, hire a coach that knows how to teach them what to do instead of one who teaches them how to "heart", and actually develop the kids instead of making them wing it. Seriously, outside of Gionta, who on that team has experienced any sort of success? The kids literally have no one to learn from.

Trading the #1 overall will not happen.

Exactly. There were certain cercumstances in those perticular cases. Isn't that what I said? And of course Buffalo would trade that pick. We're stocked up on prospects and picks. But the initial question was also reversed, and that's what I was trying to adress. Could a possible situation turn up in which another team that ends up with a top 3-pick feel that they're prospect pool is too thin to turn down a package offer to move down a few slots? That's where I think it starts getting interesting. A team like Buffalo that are so stacked would not sell a top 3-pick, but could buy one, IF it fits someone else's needs.

Let's put it this way: Team X holds the 3rd pick overall, which is projected to be Hanifin. Team Y, who are REALLY high on Hanifin, offers 4th overall and then some. 4th overall is projected to be Kylington. Now - is the gap between those two really that big that no package could close it? Of course not.

It's all hypothetical. Hypothetical is fun.

 

[Wisent42]

Part of the issue with the Sedins is that they wanted to play for the same team and that played a role in how that draft played out. (Also, Tampa traded first overall, not second) http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=lebrun_pierre&id=4883674

Still, we're talking about a draft that was 15 years ago. The world of NHL scouting has changed quite dramatically since then. Furthermore, there's now this little thing called the salary cap that has a somewhat minor effect on team building. What happened 15 years ago simply is not relevant in the modern landscape of the NHL.

Can you find a team that's traded away a top three pick in the salary cap era? The answer is no (and no, the Seguin pick does not count, Toronto did not know it'd be the #2 pick when they traded it)

Ah, circumstances! I remember mentioning something like that...

Missed that Tampa had first overall and stand corrected. Since Atlanta picked first, I just assumed Tampa hade second.

And yes of course the cap has an impact and it hasn't happened in that era. That is all true and relevant.

 

[Bps21*]

We got a first a second and a 30 goal scorer for Thomas Vanek who was turning 30 and didn't have a contract lasting a year. That was last year.

McDavid will cost your team and when you finish filling up the new team around McDavid...that team too.

 

[Wisent42]

We got a first a second and a 30 goal scorer for Thomas Vanek who was turning 30 and didn't have a contract lasting a year. That was last year.

McDavid will cost your team and when you finish filling up the new team around McDavid...that team too.

 

[SundherDome]

Why even include that garbage? Did you mean to include players that will never play an NHL game or were you trying to add something of substance?

Moving out a contract in Jacobs and moving the RFA rights to Leduc, so no one gets any ideas on re-signing him and we are taking a guy who can kinda move the puck away from San Jose so why not give them a guy who can barely move the puck, right?

 

[CatsforReinhart]

What is the over/under on "just here me out" threads for the year?

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Let's say the hockey gods smile upon us and give us the #1 pick in this upcoming draft,
what would be the possible return we could get for auctioning off the pick instead of
McDavid or Eichel?

2 or 3 more 1st round picks and a slew of blue chip prospects?

Similarly, what if we don't get top 3? What would we have to give up... all 3 of our 1st rounders this year and Reinhart?

This team has 4 picks in the top 31....That is insane. There is a chance we get one more at the deadline. People need to chillax. In 2 or 3 years this team will be scary. And no we are not the Edmonton Oilers, this team already has a solid defensive prospect pool. Something the Oilers are really missing.

 

[Royisgone]

So far, this supposed "rebuild" consists of a slew of slightly above average prospects who have demonstrated little actual development. A truly elite prospect is exactly what they crave. No chance they trade away the top pick. And absolutely yes they should offer the 1sts plus Reinhart to which the other team would quickly say no.

While this is a debatable point, I more or less agree with you.

If we become a Cup contender, it will be because we have a whole lot of talent, much of which has yet to be drafted. I don't see "Cup Contender" in the making with a lot of what is in the organization right now, though we do have some pieces in place.

 

[Royisgone]

This team has 4 picks in the top 31....That is insane. There is a chance we get one more at the deadline. People need to chillax. In 2 or 3 years this team will be scary. And no we are not the Edmonton Oilers, this team already has a solid defensive prospect pool. Something the Oilers are really missing.

It will be longer than that.

Also, do not confuse draft picks with "Cup contending roster". A lot of guys never develop into what they should in this league. We may very well draft four studs with those picks you mention. Then again, none or only one may prove to be what we are looking for.

A bunch of draft picks are meaningless until they are realized into on-ice winners. We have to cross our fingers and hope Murray grabs the right guys.