Devils 2017-18 team discussion (player news and notes) - Offseason part III

[Triumph]

A lot of these are bad examples. Streit, Spaling/Polak, DeAngelo, and Shaw do not belong on this list. And I've said multiple times that the Datsyuk trade barely moved the Coyotes up in the draft - you could do that deal for picks alone and it could look exactly the same.

But yeah, several of the others are good examples. A lot of them didn't make sense for the Devils. A Laich+Carrick type deal still makes sense.

 

[tailfins]

A lot of these are bad examples. Streit, Spaling/Polak, DeAngelo, and Shaw do not belong on this list. And I've said multiple times that the Datsyuk trade barely moved the Coyotes up in the draft - you could do that deal for picks alone and it could look exactly the same.

But yeah, several of the others are good examples. A lot of them didn't make sense for the Devils. A Laich+Carrick type deal still makes sense.

We have this same discussion every month it feels like.

Your point of view is reasonable. I just don't like it when people who feel like Shero could have done more are then told that it was impossible as if that were fact.

Reality is that it's a gray area and judgement is required to evaluate which deals made sense for the Devils. People can have different perspectives on this.


Btw - to respond to your specifics on the trades, I think Spaling / Polak absolutely belong on the list. Torres' contract was a pure dump and helped Toronto land the two 2nd round picks. Streit to Pitt wasn't a dump, but the Streit / Filpula deal was a two way dump. Shaw for picks? He would have been worth more to the Blackhawks if they could have kept him. Maybe that's not a deal that makes sense for the Devils to do, but I would rather the Devils have picked up 25 year old Andrew Shaw than 25 year old Beau Bennett. Instead the Devils took a flier on the cheaper (in terms of picks and dollars) player.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Why do you post things like this? If you can't be bothered to do the research, don't post things as if they are facts.

Let me help you.

Here is the list of trades for 2016-2017:
https://www.nhl.com/news/2016-17-nhl-trades/c-281003458

Here is the list of trades for 2015 - 2016:
https://www.nhl.com/news/2015-16-nhl-trades/c-278555954

Salary dumps:
Versteeg + Nordstrom + 3rd
Phaneuf / Michalek (interestingly, Toronto took on more salary in year 1 to make this deal happen...similar to what NJ could do with Cammalleri if they wanted)
Laich + Carrick
Maroon for nobody
Shaw for picks
Datsyuk to move up in draft
DeAngelo (perhaps not a salary dump, but still, TB dumped an asset)
Bolland + Crouse
Bickell + Teuvo
Filpula + 4th for Streit
Streit for 4th
Fehr + 4th
Spaling + Polak for Torres + picks

That's 13 deals in the past 2 years, not including the Devils Savard deal. And, the original Savard deal sent Savard + Reilly Smith for Jimmy Hayes - also a salary dump.

First of all, we were only talking about this past year, not the past 2 years....so I am not sure why it morphed into the past 2 years.

Secondly, a lot of those are REALLY stretching it or are flat out NOT salary dumps. Deangelo and Shaw come to mind.

I need to know the number of trades that Shero should have completed that would make you guys all happy. Give me a number.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Why would you expect Shero to be more aggressive?

Last year was a better free agent pool than this one for the Devils, but the Devils didn't even make an effort. Demers and Okposo were better fits than shattenkirk and oshie will be given that Demers and Okposo are younger and likely cheaper. Plus Okposo wanted to stay in the NY metro area.

Meanwhile, which kids have developed? Unless you mean Merrill and Moore, we are at the start of the kids development, not the end.

I fully expect another year of incremental and opportunistic changes. Shero has said over and over that "there are no short cuts" and that the rebuild will take time. Whether that's just cover for the owners not allowing him to spend or it's actually his philosophy doesn't matter. It's the path we're traveling.

ETA: I'm speaking of being aggressive in the free agent market only. I'm hopeful your point on the expansion draft is correct and that Shero will be able to get a trade or two done.

How do you know this?

Just because a player didn't sign here doesn't mean we didn't try. This is what I am talking about. Shero could offer the player the moon and said player could still decide to sign elsewhere. How is that his fault?

Some of you guys see it as "we didn't sign player X, so that means we didn't try". Thats nonsense.

 

[Devils Dominion]

First of all, we were only talking about this past year, not the past 2 years....so I am not sure why it morphed into the past 2 years.

Secondly, a lot of those are REALLY stretching it or are flat out NOT salary dumps.

I need to know the number of trades that Shero should have completed that would make you guys all happy. Give me a number.

I have to agree and enjoy seeing good use of italics.

 

[217 Forever]

How do you know this?

Just because a player didn't sign here doesn't mean we didn't try. This is what I am talking about. Shero could offer the player the moon and said player could still decide to sign elsewhere. How is that his fault?

Some of you guys see it as "we didn't sign player X, so that means we didn't try". Thats nonsense.

I don't want to re-hash the argument again, but my honest question is you grade a GM's job on effort and not results? Is that really what you are saying?

Also, perhaps not in your view, but if a player is made available because he can't or won't be resigned due to what he will want the following year, that is salary dump in a way IMO which would encompass some of the other names on that list.

 

[Devil X]

I don't want to re-hash the argument again, but my honest question is you grade a GM's job on effort and not results? Is that really what you are saying?

Also, perhaps not in your view, but if a player is made available because he can't or won't be resigned due to what he will want the following year, that is salary dump in a way IMO which would encompass some of the other names on that list.

We dont know the effort and what sometimes is misunderstood is that effort level. He is pointing to the fact that Shero or any GM can talk to a UFA until they are blue in the face and offer them more money, but if the player has zero interest in playing for you he wont sign. You dont often hear about the teams said player didnt sign with, so you dont know who Shero chased or didnt chase and we likely never will. We think we have a clue because of the rumor mills saying this or that but its just that a rumor. GMs should be judged on results of the players they sign, not the ones they couldnt, but couldnt get signed for whatever reason.

You want to get all over your GM about not trading that pending UFA, thats fair, but you cant blame your GM for NOT signing a UFA because there are just to many factors in that.

Just like a trade it takes 2 to tango. You need willing parties all around to make something happen and if one side isnt willing it wont happen no matter what you say.

 

[Triumph]

I'm not surprised, or at least I shouldn't be, but I can't believe we're sitting here in June with the 1st overall pick and people are disappointed that the Devils didn't sign this UFA or that UFA last July. Not to say that 1st overall was necessarily the plan coming into the season, but I don't think 'winning a lot of games' was the plan.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't want to re-hash the argument again, but my honest question is you grade a GM's job on effort and not results? Is that really what you are saying?

Also, perhaps not in your view, but if a player is made available because he can't or won't be resigned due to what he will want the following year, that is salary dump in a way IMO which would encompass some of the other names on that list.

Thing is, the results a GM gets are maybe 90% luck, as success comes mainly down to drafting, for which there's no magic formula for success. Not to mention that the GM has very little input on who gets drafted.

Yeah, the GM can make that savvy trade, but fleecings like Forsberg-Erat or Kurvers-Toronto 1st round pick are becoming rarer and rarer. So ultimately, you have to have something good to get something good, which almost always originates in drafting well.

Free agency is becoming less and less of a means to really improve your team just because of the way the CBA works now. I'm too lazy to check, but if you look at the teams that added the most in free agency this past summer, I doubt many of them really improved all that much. Edmonton signed Lucic to a big contract, but I think we can all agree that there are these two other players whose names elude me right now who had more to do with them making the playoffs.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I'm not surprised, or at least I shouldn't be, but I can't believe we're sitting here in June with the 1st overall pick and people are disappointed that the Devils didn't sign this UFA or that UFA last July. Not to say that 1st overall was necessarily the plan coming into the season, but I don't think 'winning a lot of games' was the plan.

The team was above NHL .500 the previous year, added a first line scorer in Hall, and there was optimism about players like Severson continuing to improve. So I don't think a lot of people, including probably Shero, saw this season as taking one step back to take two steps forward the next year.

But on the other hand, that kind of proves the point that people who are bellyaching about not splurging on free agents last year are kind of re-writing history. Only guy I was really hoping Shero to go after was Yandle. After he was gone, I really didn't see anyone else worth throwing a lot of money at.

 

[AfroThunder396]

**** happens. Each season is an independent and not at all influenced by the prior season's results. We're not tied to a specific destiny because of what happened in 2016.

Season to season continuity is based on how much the roster changes. We are not entitled to get better or worse because of what happened the season before. One season may tip in the overperforming direction, the next season completely independently may tip in the underperforming direction.

Welcome to sports. This team made a major trade that opened up a weakness on the blueline, our goaltender performed relatively poorly, and some minor additions did not perform as expected. NONE of that matters going into next season UNLESS those specific issues continue to be ignored. It's way too premature to be screaming, the 2017 season isn't even over yet for crying out loud.

Improvement would have been nice but it didn't happen. There were circumstances. Learn, adjust, move on, and stop *****ing about it.

 

[Billdo]

Saying Shero didn't do his due diligence because we haven't had any results just don't understand how this works. As far as UFAs, the players have to WANT to come here. Salary dumps and what not isn't cut and dry either. Maybe opposing teams thought we might be better last year had the other clubs picks as being more valuable. To say a GM is or isn't giving any effort is just silly.

 

[Triumph]

The team was above NHL .500 the previous year, added a first line scorer in Hall, and there was optimism about players like Severson continuing to improve. So I don't think a lot of people, including probably Shero, saw this season as taking one step back to take two steps forward the next year.

But on the other hand, that kind of proves the point that people who are bellyaching about not splurging on free agents last year are kind of re-writing history. Only guy I was really hoping Shero to go after was Yandle. After he was gone, I really didn't see anyone else worth throwing a lot of money at.

I don't think anyone anticipated ending up this low before the season but there should have been a fair amount of pessimism given how much luck the Devils needed just to score the number of goals and accumulate the number of wins they did in 2015-16.

 

[NJRockinRoller]

I'm not surprised, or at least I shouldn't be, but I can't believe we're sitting here in June with the 1st overall pick and people are disappointed that the Devils didn't sign this UFA or that UFA last July. Not to say that 1st overall was necessarily the plan coming into the season, but I don't think 'winning a lot of games' was the plan.

My initial point, which may have started this train, had absolutely nothing to do with UFA's. I'm and original tank advocate - so signing veteran UFA's is absolutely NOT what I want to do. My example about renting out your office building before you execute your plan to sell it in 2 years (rather than let it just sit collecting dust before selling it) is about utilizing your asset to the best of its potential while biding time until you strike with your ultimate intention. So, whether you agree or not, that means letting teams park their bad assets with you FOR A PRICE of young players and draft picks.

Yes, 7 year contracts dont make sense to take on, but some shorter ones do. If you can get assets for bad contracts that will expire in 1, 2 or even 3 years you need to be doing that. But it will cost you money which I personally dont believe they are willing to spend. You can believe otherwise - thats fine, But i dont.

I'm willing to pay the price of cash and blocking blake coleman and kevin rooney if it means getting picks or players to get to the ultimate place. I odnt think ownership is (re: the cash, not blocking kevin rooney). And i'm not worried about 2-3 wins, again I am a tank guy, so thats absolutely not my concern. If we were willing to spend money you could take a dan girardi type, park him as a 7 or even in the AHL if it meant a 1st Rd pick and eventually we're the ones buying him out in the last year.

 

[tailfins]

Wow - I feel this has all gotten twisted.

The point is going forward, I see no reason why the Devils will change their approach.

I agree with Triumph that the plan was for the Devils to not be very good this past year. There was not thought of making the team better to compete for the playoffs. Shero was clear that he was taking a long view and that a short-term mirage of a wild card playoff spot wasn't what he was chasing. This is why I don't believe the Devils tried with any of last year's UFAs. And why I don't believe the, "but he could have been talking to them" claims. I'm taking the GM at his word. If he wanted me to do different, he would have said something different.

And Shero has been consistent about his point of view this year as well. Last off-season, people seemed to feel it was the right way to go. This off-season, I see lots of "sign Shattenkirk, sign Oshie". I understand that this past year was brutal, but it's the result of a plan most supported last off-season, and it's likely going to continue for a little while.

I don't agree with Shero's approach. I think he's moving too slowly and not using all the tools available to him. I personally think it's because ownership won't support him using cash to get assets. Or, put another way, ownership may have pushed him to justify trades with some sort of ROI calculation. Since it's tough to quantify the value of a prospect or a draft pick, this can lead to "self-censorship" - where Shero will say that ownership would be willing to spend if he could justify it, but that it was his decision to stay away. If you looked at hockey assets only (and not $), though, you'd do different things / be more aggressive.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Wow - I feel this has all gotten twisted.

The point is going forward, I see no reason why the Devils will change their approach.

I agree with Triumph that the plan was for the Devils to not be very good this past year. There was not thought of making the team better to compete for the playoffs. Shero was clear that he was taking a long view and that a short-term mirage of a wild card playoff spot wasn't what he was chasing. This is why I don't believe the Devils tried with any of last year's UFAs. And why I don't believe the, "but he could have been talking to them" claims. I'm taking the GM at his word. If he wanted me to do different, he would have said something different.

And Shero has been consistent about his point of view this year as well. Last off-season, people seemed to feel it was the right way to go. This off-season, I see lots of "sign Shattenkirk, sign Oshie". I understand that this past year was brutal, but it's the result of a plan most supported last off-season, and it's likely going to continue for a little while.

I don't agree with Shero's approach. I think he's moving too slowly and not using all the tools available to him. I personally think it's because ownership won't support him using cash to get assets. Or, put another way, ownership may have pushed him to justify trades with some sort of ROI calculation. Since it's tough to quantify the value of a prospect or a draft pick, this can lead to "self-censorship" - where Shero will say that ownership would be willing to spend if he could justify it, but that it was his decision to stay away. If you looked at hockey assets only (and not $), though, you'd do different things / be more aggressive.

But see, these 2 thoughts contradict each other.

Shero came out and said explicitly in his end of the year press conference that he basically told ownership that he didn't need their money the past 1-2 years, 'but now its starting to get to that point where we need to start spending' so he will need it soon.

You can't say you're taking the GMs word for one thing but not the other.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Three years, are you insane? We took on Ruutu for two years and he was an active detriment to the team.

You're simply not going to take on a cap dump with term remaining, period. The only way it's worth your while is a gigantic sweetener, which teams will not be willing to give up unless absolutely forced to. And the number of situations where teams are forced to do that are very low.

Teams are much more likely to give up on a promising young player in a hockey trade (Palmieri, Saad) than they are to offer up their best asset with an albatross.

 

[Bleedred]

I don't believe the owners will never spend, I have no reason to believe as of now that they will refuse to spend.

If they did, they would have hired John Smith to the their GM (i.e. some jabroni that no one has ever heard of before and will work for cheap because of that). Shero probably commands a high salary and I would bet that he's in the top 10 highest paid GM's right now. Now I know what people will say, ''Well it's just one guy they're spending on and not multiple guys they're spending on'' but I don't think Shero would have taken this job if he couldn't spend to the cap at some point. He was only out of work for less than a year and there were only 4 other teams that made GM changes (not including Pittsburgh) in between the day Pittsburgh fired him and we hired him. One of those teams was Colorado, who hired Sakic and technically Sakic was already the GM in all but name by that point. Boston also had an opening at the time we hired him, as did Toronto. I remember it being talked about that Toronto probably wouldn't have hired a GM if Lou didn't become available or that it might have been Dubas or Shanahan just without the title.

And that's also not taking into account that there were a few reports that we were talking to Shero even before the 15-16 season ended, so before there were any openings in Edmonton, Boston or Toronto. So it's not like he was desperate for work. He was not even passed over by a handful of teams.

I've also listed off several reasons why it doesn't seem to indicate that the owners are penny pinching over here. Staying an extra night in Nashville instead of going home, which is another night of hotels for everyone that travels with the team. Things like flying back home to New Jersey instead of from Pittsburgh to Winnipeg, when there was a game 3 nights later. Staying at an oceanfront resort hotel on the beach in Fort Lauderdale, rather than the Doubletree in Sunrise and a few other things.

 

[NJRockinRoller]

Three years, are you insane? We took on Ruutu for two years and he was an active detriment to the team.

You're simply not going to take on a cap dump with term remaining, period. The only way it's worth your while is a gigantic sweetener, which teams will not be willing to give up unless absolutely forced to. And the number of situations where teams are forced to do that are very low.

Teams are much more likely to give up on a promising young player in a hockey trade (Palmieri, Saad) than they are to offer up their best asset with an albatross.

Yeah, thats what I said earlier. Every trade is based on return. The Devils are in a position to be flexible based on how desperate a team is. But being closed minded to opportunities is not how a bottom 5 team with a middle to bottom road prospect pool should be approacing their existence. People here still talk like this is the year 2000 as Devils fans. This team is very bad. Looking up slowly but very bad. They need a dramatic influx of talent and while its getting better its moving very slow. They should be using every avenue to improve it and in the devils own words their cap space is possibly their greatest asset.

 

[NJRockinRoller]

I don't believe the owners will never spend, I have no reason to believe as of now that they will refuse to spend.

If they did, they would have hired John Smith to the their GM (i.e. some jabroni that no one has ever heard of before and will work for cheap because of that). Shero probably commands a high salary and I would bet that he's in the top 10 highest paid GM's right now. Now I know what people will say, ''Well it's just one guy they're spending on and not multiple guys they're spending on'' but I don't think Shero would have taken this job if he couldn't spend to the cap at some point. He was only out of work for less than a year and there were only 4 other teams that made GM changes (not including Pittsburgh) in between the day Pittsburgh fired him and we hired him. One of those teams was Colorado, who hired Sakic and technically Sakic was already the GM in all but name by that point. Boston also had an opening at the time we hired him, as did Toronto. I remember it being talked about that Toronto probably wouldn't have hired a GM if Lou didn't become available or that it might have been Dubas or Shanahan just without the title.

And that's also not taking into account that there were a few reports that we were talking to Shero even before the 15-16 season ended, so before there were any openings in Edmonton, Boston or Toronto. So it's not like he was desperate for work.

I've also listed off several reasons why it doesn't seem to indicate that the owners are penny pinching over here. Staying an extra night in Nashville instead of going home, which is another night of hotels for everyone that travels with the team. Things like flying back home to New Jersey instead of from Pittsburgh to Winnipeg, when there was a game 3 nights later. Staying at an oceanfront resort hotel on the beach in Fort Lauderdale, rather than the Doubletree in Sunrise and a few other things.

Look we can argue about their hockey ops budget all day but this is still an NHL team. The travel expenses your talking about have zero to do with what we are talking about. Zero. The Devils also have one of the smallest travel obligations in the NHL, if you want to discuss it, but still its irrelevant. We are talking about adding $10M in salary to gain draft picks and your talking about staying and extra night in a Tennessee hotel which AAU basketball teams do every weekend.

Some people are just devoted to the ownership, which I guess is fine. Soon enough we'll see.

 

[Bleedred]

Look we can argue about their hockey ops budget all day but this is still an NHL team. The travel expenses your talking about have zero to do with what we are talking about. Zero. The Devils also have one of the smallest travel obligations in the NHL, if you want to discuss it, but still its irrelevant. We are talking about adding $10M in salary to gain draft picks and your talking about staying and extra night in a Tennessee hotel which AAU basketball teams do every weekend.

Some people are just devoted to the ownership, which I guess is fine. Soon enough we'll see.

I'm devoted to these people at all.

But some people here act like they're cutting costs and want this team to run as frugal as possible. And fueling up the jets costs quite a bit. Why fly back to Newark from Pittsburgh, when you can fly straight to Winnipeg, where your next game is in 3 nights? I would bet the money costs from flying the plane extra miles and paying the flight crew is more than what they'd spend on 2 extra nights in Winnipeg.

If anything, the one part that I thought was interesting was setting the opening gate time back a half hour. From 1.5 hours before the game to 1 hour before game time. It appears the 76ers do the same thing and a few other NHL teams do as well, most open up 90 minutes before game time though.

And I will say that they probably did have it pass through their mind in the last two Lou seasons when they first came aboard ''Hey, we're spending to the cap and this team SUCKS! We can not spend to the cap and probably wouldn't be too much worse than this'' and we did turn out to be slightly better when scaling back payroll the next year, the first year post-Lou.

 

[Triumph]

My initial point, which may have started this train, had absolutely nothing to do with UFA's. I'm and original tank advocate - so signing veteran UFA's is absolutely NOT what I want to do. My example about renting out your office building before you execute your plan to sell it in 2 years (rather than let it just sit collecting dust before selling it) is about utilizing your asset to the best of its potential while biding time until you strike with your ultimate intention. So, whether you agree or not, that means letting teams park their bad assets with you FOR A PRICE of young players and draft picks.

Again, there doesn't seem to be a particularly large market for this sort of deal. Very few deals of this nature have been executed over the last 2 years. That's because the market for it is typically not good. We've seen Versteeg and Laich dumped for one year (and a little bit), but beyond one year, I've not seen a team straight up dump a contract of a player healthy enough to play and add something in, for nothing, in a while.

Yes, 7 year contracts dont make sense to take on, but some shorter ones do. If you can get assets for bad contracts that will expire in 1, 2 or even 3 years you need to be doing that. But it will cost you money which I personally dont believe they are willing to spend. You can believe otherwise - thats fine, But i dont.

There has to be a line. You can't take on 2 years of a bad contract for a 4th round pick. That doesn't make any financial sense. That's why these sorts of deals don't happen - the teams with the bad contracts aren't willing to pay enough in order to get them off their roster.

I'm willing to pay the price of cash and blocking blake coleman and kevin rooney if it means getting picks or players to get to the ultimate place. I odnt think ownership is (re: the cash, not blocking kevin rooney). And i'm not worried about 2-3 wins, again I am a tank guy, so thats absolutely not my concern. If we were willing to spend money you could take a dan girardi type, park him as a 7 or even in the AHL if it meant a 1st Rd pick and eventually we're the ones buying him out in the last year.

Since you picked Dan Girardi - I assume you said a Dan Girardi type because you don't actually know the contracts around the league that might be used in this sort of situation so you just said the example that was already given - Dan Girardi is due $13M over the next 3 years and carries a cap hit of $16.5M. He's an AHL level defenseman at this point. Trading for that just to get a 1st round pick would be a horrendous deal for NJ. That's the issue - there has to be a line at how much money a team should be willing to pick up in exchange for a draft pick, and that deal crosses it. The Leafs disposed of Brooks Laich for about $5.2M and got Carrick in return for doing that, that's the kind of deal that makes some sense.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Yeah, thats what I said earlier. Every trade is based on return. The Devils are in a position to be flexible based on how desperate a team is. But being closed minded to opportunities is not how a bottom 5 team with a middle to bottom road prospect pool should be approacing their existence. People here still talk like this is the year 2000 as Devils fans. This team is very bad. Looking up slowly but very bad. They need a dramatic influx of talent and while its getting better its moving very slow. They should be using every avenue to improve it and in the devils own words their cap space is possibly their greatest asset.

That doesn't mean you fill your whole team up with awful contracts to accumulate picks that MIGHT be something in 3 years. You pick your spots. Close minded has nothing to do with it. It's about leaving yourself open to take advantage of opportunities, knowing that there's no way you can get ALL opportunities to go your way.

Being TOO aggressive can be a problem. Look at Buffalo, they had a huge surplus of picks and it lead to them making very risky moves like E. Kane and Lehner which have not paid off for them.

This team doesn't need dramatic anything. With the assets we now have, pretty much every hole except #1D and #2D can be filled internally. This season being disappointing did absolutely nothing to alter the plan moving forward.

It's one thing to accumulate assets, it's another to actually liquidate them into something tangible that helps the team. We have enough ammunition to move up in the draft to grab a guy we really like or snag another Palmieri should that opportunity arise.

My question is, do we really need MORE assets? We can only move up so many times or make so many trades. Would a few extra 3rds and a 2nd in 2024 really make that much of a difference? Is that worth watching some awful guy flail around on the ice for two seasons?

We have the #1 OA and four total picks in the top-60, and an extra 2nd this year. We also saw our 2016 picks have generally excellent developmental years across the board, their stocks are all rising. We're in fine shape. This is a marathon and you're trying to make it a sprint.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

This team genuinely needs grit and toughness. Jokes aside, we should of not got rid if Bobby Farnham, imo

 

[NJRockinRoller]

My question is, do we really need MORE assets? .

Its a rare treat to feel, even for a fleeting moment, that you're in elementary school again. Just a kid without a care in the world. Thanks for the quick trip back to 1995. I enjoyed it.