Devils 2016-17 team discussion (player news and notes) - Part XV

[Devs4L]

honestly if something that happened 5 years ago raises up his value beyond the player he actually is day in and day out (which I don't doubt I understand that GM's have a certain liking to players who carry themselves like Henrique) it'd be cool if Shero could leverage it.

You can reduce it to 2 moments in 2012 if you want, but the fact is it's only 2 moments out of many that happened before it and since it, whether they came in the playoffs or not.

That this team hasn't made the playoffs since 2012 is what is "meaningless" when assessing whether Henrique has it in him to be a big game player or not. He came through time after time in juniors, came through in the playoffs, and has come through again and again over the last 5 seasons here.

I'll phrase it to you this way. He's given much more reason to believe he rises to the occasion, rather than shies away from it, and that's absolutely inarguable. When he gives me reason to believe the opposite, I and everyone who shares the same opinion, may begin to think differently.

But no, one season in which he played on one of the worst teams we've had in the last 30 years, after putting up 30 goals last season, doesn't give me cause to wonder.

I've said I don't consider him untouchable. If he was included in a package to bring something really significant, I'd probably be open to it. But slotting him where he should be, adding skilled players around him that he can play with, is the route I'd rather go.

 

[R8Devs]

6 seasons after their rookie seasons and Henrique still compares remarkably close to Landeskog.

Henrique is still 5th in goals among 2008 drafted players.

Not sure what people expect from Henrique but he's not a player I would consider trading from this team unless it was for a significant upgrade in production and I don't believe that is possible.

you never know. some gms could weigh intangibles highly and if one of their 'soft' top 6 forwards doesn't have a good post season maybe a deal could be made.

 

[R8Devs]

You can reduce it to 2 moments in 2012 if you want, but the fact is it's only 2 moments out of many that happened before it and since it, whether they came in the playoffs or not.

That this team hasn't made the playoffs since 2012 is what is "meaningless" when assessing whether Henrique has it in him to be a big game player or not. He came through time after time in juniors, came through in the playoffs, and has come through again and again over the last 5 seasons here.

I'll phrase it to you this way. He's given much more reason to believe he rises to the occasion, rather than shies away from it, and that's absolutely inarguable. When he gives me reason to believe the opposite, I and everyone who shares the same opinion, may begin to think differently.

But no, one season in which he played on one of the worst teams we've had in the last 30 years, after putting up 30 goals last season, doesn't give me cause to wonder.

I've said I don't consider him untouchable. If he was included in a package to bring something really significant, I'd probably be open to it. But slotting him where he should be, adding skilled players around him that he can play with, is the route I'd rather go.

I don't really consider most guys on this team untouchable. I'm not saying trade him for a downgrade either, just that if his big game moments raise his value for other GM's enough to give a good(better) piece for him I'd do it depending on what the add-ons for the trade are. It's all hypothetical anyway lol we'll see what Shero does

 

[MadDevil]

In terms of Rico's playoff "clutchness" we haven't seen him in the playoffs since his rookie year, so we don't really know if there's anything to it or if he just happened to score a couple of big goals that year.

 

[R8Devs]

In terms of Rico's playoff "clutchness" we haven't seen him in the playoffs since his rookie year, so we don't really know if there's anything to it or if he just happened to score a couple of big goals that year.

yeah I agree and in general it's sort of weird to define players out of small sample sizes (especially for something as vague as 'clutchness') but reputation is reputation and that's completely different than stats.

 

[Elvs]

I would set it up like

Hall-Zacha-Cammalleri
Henrique-Zajac-Palmieri
Bennett-Blandisi-Noesen
Wood-Coleman-Lappin

Greene-Lovejoy
Moore - Severson
Merrill - Santini

Schneider
Kinkaid

Thanks! Henrique and Zajac are clear leaders in faceoffs taken, don't they play both center?

On another topic, I'm curious about Ben Lovejoy. I've seen him get a lot of hate from Devils fans on the main board this season. His -7 isn't that bad on this team given the minutes he's playing. Has he really been that awful or is usage the problem? Would he not be a good 3rd pairing defenseman playing 17-18 minutes per night, as opposed to the 20-21 he's getting now?

Right now he's playing significantly more than any defenseman not named Greene or Severson. Do fans see this as mistake being made by Hynes or do fans agree with his coaching which would suggest that there's currently no better options for logging those minutes?

 

[Jets012]

6 seasons after their rookie seasons and Henrique still compares remarkably close to Landeskog.

Henrique is still 5th in goals among 2008 drafted players.

Not sure what people expect from Henrique but he's not a player I would consider trading from this team unless it was for a significant upgrade in production and I don't believe that is possible.

Career Stats:

Henrique:
Points/60: 1.47
CF Rel/TM: -0.6
First A/60: .34


Landeskog:
Points/60: 1.87
CF Rel/TM: 2.7
First A/60: .74

Landeskog is a much better player.

Henrique is what he is. He finds a way to score garbage goals. I give him credit, it's a skill. He posts a high shooting percentage because he gets in good positions and has a very accurate shot. But this guy is a highly overrated player. He has been for a few years now. He'll HURT a team possession wise. He's not a good defensive forward by any metric. Players in the top 6 a lot of the time play better without him (take a look at Cam/Hall/Palmieri the last year or two with and without him). Henrique is a fine passenger on a line, but he's not nearly as good as his volume point totals would indicate. He has those point totals because he's played big minutes for us with all of our top players the last few years. He's a 2nd/3rd line player when you factor in his complete game and all of his deficiencies.

Hero Charts aren't the best, but Henrique's is telling:
https://public.tableau.com/shared/PWMHKF774?:display_count=yes

 

[Jets012]

Thanks! Henrique and Zajac are clear leaders in faceoffs taken, don't they play both center?

On another topic, I'm curious about Ben Lovejoy. I've seen him get a lot of hate from Devils fans on the main board this season. His -7 isn't that bad on this team given the minutes he's playing. Has he really been that awful or is usage the problem? Would he not be a good 3rd pairing defenseman playing 17-18 minutes per night, as opposed to the 20-21 he's getting now?

Right now he's playing significantly more than any defenseman not named Greene or Severson. Do fans see this as mistake being made by Hynes or do fans agree with his coaching which would suggest that there's currently no better options for logging those minutes?

It depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for an optimal lineup, then it would be much different than what Hynes played. Lovejoy did play first pairing minutes, but don't let the +/- fool you, he was very bad. Amongst the worst in possession stats in the league and we generated no offense with him on the ice. Honestly, I don't even think he'd be good on the bottom pairing anymore. He did play some games in which he received less minutes and it still got very ugly. I think it would be very difficult for Santini to play worse than him. I think it's very safe to say, he's the worst defenseman on our team. Severson is in a different stratosphere.

And Henrique is typically our 2nd line center, but he played some wing late in the year. He's not a line-driver, so he probably is more of a natural fit at LW to be honest.

 

[VoidCreature]

Speaking of Landeskog, I think he's pretty much exactly what Shero believes we need to add. Wonder what it would take to get him.

 

[Elvs]

It depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for an optimal lineup, then it would be much different than what Hynes played. Lovejoy did play first pairing minutes, but don't let the +/- fool you, he was very bad. Amongst the worst in possession stats in the league and we generated no offense with him on the ice. Honestly, I don't even think he'd be good on the bottom pairing anymore. He did play some games in which he received less minutes and it still got very ugly. I think it would be very difficult for Santini to play worse than him. I think it's very safe to say, he's the worst defenseman on our team. Severson is in a different stratosphere.

And Henrique is typically our 2nd line center, but he played some wing late in the year. He's not a line-driver, so he probably is more of a natural fit at LW to be honest.

Sad to hear. With the Ducks, he would ice the puck more than any other defenseman as his stretch passes out of his own zone left a lot to be desired. But other than that, I liked his game without the puck along with his mobility and work ethic. He seems like such a likeable dude off the ice too.

Jacob Josefson is another player I like who I don't think Devils fans are too found of these days. I thought he did a tremendous job for Team Sweden at the 2015 World Championships and thought he would soon solidify himself as a dependable bottom six center in the NHL. I wouldn't mind seeing the Ducks take flyer on him, if they decide to move on from Nate Thompson seeing as our forward group is starting to get quite old.

 

[VoidCreature]

Thanks! Henrique and Zajac are clear leaders in faceoffs taken, don't they play both center?

On another topic, I'm curious about Ben Lovejoy. I've seen him get a lot of hate from Devils fans on the main board this season. His -7 isn't that bad on this team given the minutes he's playing. Has he really been that awful or is usage the problem? Would he not be a good 3rd pairing defenseman playing 17-18 minutes per night, as opposed to the 20-21 he's getting now?

Right now he's playing significantly more than any defenseman not named Greene or Severson. Do fans see this as mistake being made by Hynes or do fans agree with his coaching which would suggest that there's currently no better options for logging those minutes?

Most Devils fans can't stand Lovejoy, but I think that's just because he's being played over his head. He's a leader, and I think if he were limited to the bottom half of the D he'd be quite valuable.

I think Hynes feels Lovejoy makes fewer mistakes or else gives a more consistent effort than Severson. A lot of us disagree with that, but that's why he plays top pair.

 

[NJDevs26]

The same Lou that broke up the most popular line in Devils history "because they became more of the focus than the team."?

I think if Lou held on to players too long it was because that player was popular with Lou. It was out of his own loyalty. Same thing Lombardi is being criticized for now. Mostly because they were players Lou won with. I'm not sure Lou ever made any decision based strictly on what the fans thought.

Bingo. Lou went out of his way NOT to give a crap about what the fans thought. But now basically everything that's wrong is automatically something Lou would have done which is a silly rewriting of history. Lou had his issues but let's not ascribe stuff to him he never did.

Plus most of Lou's tenure the team didn't have to worry about prolonged losing so PR is a bit more of a consideration for ownership now than it would have been with McMullen/Vanderbeek/YankeeNets. This isn't the days of the team being considered the only public relations neccesary a la McMullen's quote after they won in '95.

I do think Henrique's clutchness is vastly overstated though, he wasn't even that great on balance in the 2012 playoffs but he had a great Game 7 against Florida and another extremely well-timed moment. Leave out those two games and he scored two goals in the other 22 playoff games. I don't really care about his playoff performances before he got to the NHL.

 

[Bleedred]

My point is Henrique is a UFA in two years.

Do we really want him long term for $5-$6 million per year into his 30's? People complain about him enough now. Imagine if he's getting paid $1-$2 million more per and producing even less?

It's not like we need to get rid of him, but it's something to think about in the next year. Like next Summer. He has a stupid Clarkson UFA deal written all over him.

Suppose we keep him and he walks because we don't wanna pay him that stupid UFA deal? That's the kind of thing Lou got roasted for.

 

[brule2000]

I can't see any way we look to trade Henrique this summer but I don't think we looked to trade Larsson last summer. Teams with assets look at bad teams to pick up character by leverage. We so desperately needed scoring last summer that we parted with our best defender for the future to pick up Edmonton's third or fourth best forward.

 

[Zippy316]

So I've been reading the last few days and thinking to myself how crazy some of you are for wanting to trade Severson. Then I see that it looks like Drouin could be available for a D.

What would you all give up for Drouin? Severson + what?

Imagine if we could add Drouin and sign Shatts...

That's what were saying.

No one is saying give him up. But depending on our off-season, it could make sense if we flip him for someone like Drouin, MacKinnon, or a similarly aged young forward.

 

[Bleedred]

I can't see any way we look to trade Henrique this summer but I don't think we looked to trade Larsson last summer. Teams with assets look at bad teams to pick up character by leverage. We so desperately needed scoring last summer that we parted with our best defender for the future to pick up Edmonton's third or fourth best forward.

The idea of trading Henrique for me is to cash in on getting something for him so he doesn't walk to UFA. If he's willing to sign a fairly friendly deal, I'd probably keep him. I don't think we need to trade him in now unless it's for something real good. It's just something we're gonna have to decide on in the next year.

 

[NJDevs26]

If we are going to trade Henrique pre-UFA I'd prefer it be after next year after he presumably is going to play a little better, he can't play much worse and stay a viable top six guy. But I could see him getting moved this offseason too, he was one of the poster boys for not giving effort all the time.

 

[Devils090]

Brought it up during the season, Henrique could be moved as a wake up call to the team. Now first and foremost he should only be moved for a good return but obviously if Shero finds a good deal then he shouldn't hesitate.

 

[brule2000]

Brought it up during the season, Henrique could be moved as a wake up call to the team. Now first and foremost he should only be moved for a good return but obviously if Shero finds a good deal then he shouldn't hesitate.

We don't have enough talent to trade viable NHL players in order to send a message. If he goes it will be because he's requested in return for a piece we're seeking. I don't see him being shopped but he's available, of course.

 

[Bleedred]

If we are going to trade Henrique pre-UFA I'd prefer it be after next year after he presumably is going to play a little better, he can't play much worse and stay a viable top six guy. But I could see him getting moved this offseason too, he was one of the poster boys for not giving effort all the time.

Definitely don't think we need to seriously consider it until next offseason. I'd listen to offers for him now, but I'd like to keep him for next season.

Keeping him after next season though, means we'll either extend him or probably trade him as a rental at the deadline, depending on where we are in March of 2019.

 

[MichaelJ]

If the Devils can solve a long term need on D by trading Henrique, do it. I don't care when. If not, try to re-sign or deal as a rental at the appropriate time

 

[Triumph]

I can't see any way we look to trade Henrique this summer but I don't think we looked to trade Larsson last summer. Teams with assets look at bad teams to pick up character by leverage. We so desperately needed scoring last summer that we parted with our best defender for the future to pick up Edmonton's third or fourth best forward.

Hall was Edmonton's third or fourth best forward? Maybe if Connor McDavid counts as two people. Hall is a way better player than Draisaitl or anyone else on that team who isn't McDavid. One year he won't shoot 5% at 5 on 5 and have Travis Zajac on his line all year. Hall is an exceptionally talented player.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Hall was Edmonton's third or fourth best forward? Maybe if Connor McDavid counts as two people. Hall is a way better player than Draisaitl or anyone else on that team who isn't McDavid. One year he won't shoot 5% at 5 on 5 and have Travis Zajac on his line all year. Hall is an exceptionally talented player.

What? Hall was there second best forward behind McDavid

 

[Triumph]

As for Henrique, what use is a supposed clutch player if you can't make the playoffs? Let someone else pay for his 30s. He's probably about the only guy who another team might overrate based on his performance in New Jersey and now is the time to trade him if that's the intent.

 

[Emperoreddy]

That's what were saying.

No one is saying give him up. But depending on our off-season, it could make sense if we flip him for someone like Drouin, MacKinnon, or a similarly aged young forward.

Honestly then I don't do it.

We absolutely do not have the depth to be trading away defense right now.

The only way we can justify it is we either signed or somehow have a guarantee that **** is signing here or Shero has a separate trade for D done.

Can't just do that and hope someone signs here. That would be poor team management as someone has to play defense (unless we really do want to do an Edmonton tank).