Pre-Game Talk: Detroit Red Wings @ New York Rangers

[silkyjohnson50]

He's amazing, but there's a reason why injury prone players are looked at with wary eyes by all the teams in the league. You're play an incredibly fast and physical sport with a grueling schedule. A lot of these injuries leave a mark even after you're "healthy." And you can be Sidney Crosby, but you're no good to any team if you're not on the ice.

So should Pittsburgh have entertained the thought of trading Crosby? Should Boston have gotten rid of Bergeron? And on and on.

Injuries happen, but they're mostly unpredictable. And in many cases, it's simply a matter of chance.

Helm's injuries have not really related to his style of play. Getting cut on the forearm and injuring your back lifting weights have kept him out the longest. Those aren't style of play injuries. The odds of those happening to an NHLer are slim. The groin injury he has now is more common (look no further than our lineup). But with Helm's recent past back injury setbacks he's likely to be as cautious as possible when it comes to letting an injury heal fully before pushing it. And rightfully so. People freak out about this and call him soft. They're idiots.

Helm, like Dekeyser recently and like Datsyuk to be, will return from a groin injury. And when he does people will soon remember why he is so valuable. No player up front in Detroit has a better impact on his linemates with the exception of 13 and 40. Helm's that important.

People like to throw the term injury prone around, but in many cases it's just a matter of chance. Now in some players their style of play (see Eric Lindros and not keeping his head up) has a obvious correlation with their injury history, but most of the time it's just the luck of the draw. And suggesting to get rid of a dynamic player because he's run into a recent bad luck of the draw is a flawed line of thinking.

 

[Chance on Chance]

So should Pittsburgh have entertained the thought of trading Crosby? Should Boston have gotten rid of Bergeron? And on and on.

Injuries happen, but they're mostly unpredictable. And in many cases, it's simply a matter of chance.

Helm's injuries have not really related to his style of play. Getting cut on the forearm and injuring your back lifting weights have kept him out the longest. Those aren't style of play injuries. The odds of those happening to an NHLer are slim. The groin injury he has now is more common (look no further than our lineup). But with Helm's recent past back injury setbacks he's likely to be as cautious as possible when it comes to letting an injury heal fully before pushing it. And rightfully so. People freak out about this and call him soft. They're idiots.

Helm, like Dekeyser recently and like Datsyuk to be, will return from a groin injury. And when he does people will soon remember why he is so valuable. No player up front in Detroit has a better impact on his linemates with the exception of 13 and 40. Helm's that important.

People like to throw the term injury prone around, but in many cases it's just a matter of chance. Now in some players their style of play (see Eric Lindros and not keeping his head up) has a obvious correlation with their injury history, but most of the time it's just the luck of the draw. And suggesting to get rid of a dynamic player because he's run into a recent bad luck of the draw is a flawed line of thinking.

Helms no where near those other 2 players in skill. And at 26 he had a back problem and no specialist knew what the issue was. If he misses 40 to 50 games a season that's not much value to us. Let him play out his contract then decide but if I was the wings I would take a good look at other options

 

[drw02]

So should Pittsburgh have entertained the thought of trading Crosby? Should Boston have gotten rid of Bergeron? And on and on.

Injuries happen, but they're mostly unpredictable. And in many cases, it's simply a matter of chance.

Helm's injuries have not really related to his style of play. Getting cut on the forearm and injuring your back lifting weights have kept him out the longest. Those aren't style of play injuries. The odds of those happening to an NHLer are slim. The groin injury he has now is more common (look no further than our lineup). But with Helm's recent past back injury setbacks he's likely to be as cautious as possible when it comes to letting an injury heal fully before pushing it. And rightfully so. People freak out about this and call him soft. They're idiots.

Helm, like Dekeyser recently and like Datsyuk to be, will return from a groin injury. And when he does people will soon remember why he is so valuable. No player up front in Detroit has a better impact on his linemates with the exception of 13 and 40. Helm's that important.

People like to throw the term injury prone around, but in many cases it's just a matter of chance. Now in some players their style of play (see Eric Lindros and not keeping his head up) has a obvious correlation with their injury history, but most of the time it's just the luck of the draw. And suggesting to get rid of a dynamic player because he's run into a recent bad luck of the draw is a flawed line of thinking.

It's slightly different with Crosby it was one particular injury and they knew it could take awhile. With Helm it's like he has a new injury every week. He's on a good contract so that makes keeping him around much easier but at what point do you say enough? Not suggesting they should definitely trade him but maybe just explore it and see if you can get a worthwhile return (not likely).

Some injuries are a matter of chance. Helm getting his wrist slashed by a skate is a matter of chance...having reoccurring back and groin and whatever other seemingly chronic injuries isn't a matter of chance.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

It's slightly different with Crosby it was one particular injury and they knew it could take awhile. With Helm it's like he has a new injury every week. He's on a good contract so that makes keeping him around much easier but at what point do you say enough? Not suggesting they should definitely trade him but maybe just explore it and see if you can get a worthwhile return (not likely).

Some injuries are a matter of chance. Helm getting his wrist slashed by a skate is a matter of chance...having reoccurring back and groin and whatever other seemingly chronic injuries isn't a matter of chance.

He played one game through the back injury. It was clearly never healed. That doesn't count as reoccuring. If it flares up again i'd agree. But until then let it rest. Never the less, like concussions (see Crosby, Bergeron, Eaves, and in a worse case Savard), back injuries are unpredictable in the sense of a time table. Helm found that out the hard way.

Injuries are a part of athletics and like I said, for the most part it's nothing more than chance. What are the odds that Helm continues to have freak injuries throughout his career? And are we willing to give up on one of our most valuable players because of that? Most people on this board suggested before the season that they didn't expect Helm to play at all this season. He already beat those odds and let's be real: he has a groin injury. He's going to be back.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

are ALL other teams constantly missing their top players or do we still believe its just a run of bad luck here in detroit?

 

[SimplySolace]

are ALL other teams constantly missing their top players or do we still believe its just a run of bad luck here in detroit?

This site is pretty good
http://www.mangameslost.com/nhl-man-games-lost-january-14-2014/

 

[Flowah]

People like to throw the term injury prone around, but in many cases it's just a matter of chance. Now in some players their style of play (see Eric Lindros and not keeping his head up) has a obvious correlation with their injury history, but most of the time it's just the luck of the draw. And suggesting to get rid of a dynamic player because he's run into a recent bad luck of the draw is a flawed line of thinking.

Whether you call it luck or something else doesn't matter. Some players *are* always on and off the IR. Some players never miss a game.

And the second part is that serious injuries, like ones that make you miss an entire season, can have lasting impacts even after you're "healed." It's not a coincidence that people with back problems or knee problems seem to have recurring injuries to those areas. You're never really back to 100%.

As for Crosby, no, you don't trade the best player in the world away unless you're sure he's done. He's too good. But Helm is a 2C on his best day at more realistically, a good 3C. He's hardly irreplaceable.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Darren Helm is VERY GOOD at what he does. Don't underrate him, he's probably our best bottom sixer right now.

 

[Konnan511]

Darren Helm is VERY GOOD at what he does. Don't underrate him, he's probably our best bottom sixer right now.

On team bench?

 

[Frk It]

On team bench?

Here comes Bench with a one-liner in 5...4....3....2....

 

[Dats13DET]

Helm has glass bones and paper skin but I dislike the idea of getting rid of him. He has too much upside and plays a key role in this team's bottom six. This year, he proved his speed and PK abilities are still great despite being injured for all that time. He's no Crosby but he's not somebody you should throw away either.

 

[RedWingzz]

Helm has glass bones and paper skin but I dislike the idea of getting rid of him. He has too much upside and plays a key role in this team's bottom six. This year, he proved his speed and PK abilities are still great despite being injured for all that time. He's no Crosby but he's not somebody you should throw away either.

I love Helm, one of my favorite players on the team But I would trade him. He doesn't play. It's rather annoying having to always think about the possibility of having him in the lineup. No doubt, when he plays we are a better team, and he's an ideal 3rd line center. I don't know if he's worth keeping around anymore though, he simply is always injured. Most fragile player in the NHL next to Marty Havlat. I'd trade him, but only if we got something good in return.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't remember Helm missing a lot of time before the back issue. Groin problems are to be expected in the early stages of his return to playing after such a long time out. Maybe he'll get healthy and be healthy for a long time. Bottom line is we're not going to find another player like him easily, and even if we do what's to guarantee that guy will be less 'injury prone'? It's a frustrating time but let's not get carried away.

 

[SoupNazi]

I love Helm, one of my favorite players on the team But I would trade him. He doesn't play. It's rather annoying having to always think about the possibility of having him in the lineup. No doubt, when he plays we are a better team, and he's an ideal 3rd line center. I don't know if he's worth keeping around anymore though, he simply is always injured. Most fragile player in the NHL next to Marty Havlat. I'd trade him, but only if we got something good in return.

For that reason, his trade value is at a low right now.

 

[Dats13DET]

I love Helm, one of my favorite players on the team But I would trade him. He doesn't play. It's rather annoying having to always think about the possibility of having him in the lineup. No doubt, when he plays we are a better team, and he's an ideal 3rd line center. I don't know if he's worth keeping around anymore though, he simply is always injured. Most fragile player in the NHL next to Marty Havlat. I'd trade him, but only if we got something good in return.

Following up with what Soup said, we just wouldn't get the value we want due to him not playing. I've heard in the past that Kenny and co. have a bit of a thing for helm which means it just won't happen.

 

[Frk It]

You actually think Janmark is 1-2 years away?

From the RWC article when he was drafted

Janmark, who had 61 points in 40 games at the J-20 SuperElit level back in 2011-12, projects as a scoring-line player at the NHL level and is closer to realizing his potential than most players drafted outside of the first round on Sunday.

He's also 2 years older than most drafted in his draft year, already playing in a men's league, and is the #1 center on his team.

So no, that's not crazy to think whatsoever. Certainly possible.

http://www.redwingscentral.com/2013/07/01/4088/skilled-intense-janmark-nylen-a-wanted-man/

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Darren Helm is VERY GOOD at what he does. Don't underrate him, he's probably our best bottom sixer right now.

Probably? It's not even close. Tatar brings a real nice scoring presence and energy to the bottom 6 and a lot of the other guys bring some versatility and eat up PK minutes, but none of them bring the total package that Helm does. And when Tatar's scoring gets to the point that he's more valuable, he won't be considered a bottom 6 forward any longer. As a matter of fact, Helm might be reaching that point as well.

As crazy as it is to say, Helm's our 3rd most impactful forward. Even with his increased scoring, stats don't measure his total value. Not even Alfie or Franzen's scoring makes up for his impact IMO.

For example, Alfie's a great piece. But he has to be surrounded by the right pieces to score at the level and consistency that you'd like to see. When Alfie was not playing with Datsyuk/Zetterberg he was not scoring earlier in the year. The majority of his points came when he was on the ice with one or both of them (PP and a few shifts here and there.) That's when he was often with Weiss and Franzen. Which player did he have the most even strength success with? Helm.

Franzen also played great with Helm and Tatar for a couple games with I'm not mistaking.

Eaves, Miller, and Abdelkader have all player their best hockey as Red Wings alongside Helm.

Are all these instances a coincidence? No they're not. Helm's speed and tenacity opens up a ridiculous amount of time and space. Players like Abdelkader and Miller spend more time on the forecheck and cycle. A player like Eaves is able to cycle and then slip into the slot for a shot. Alfredsson was given more space to play his patient game high in the offensive zone.

Going back to 2011, Helm has been a good Corsi player. And that was when he was only playing with bottom 6 players. What that tells is that he helps tilt the ice and his unit spends more time in the offensive zone. Most would be surprised that he was one of the top 5 scorers (in terms of points/minute) up front for Detroit back then. And that was when Detroit had players like Filppua and Hudler.

Detroit's bottom 6 disappeared with his absence during the Nashville series in 2012. They suddenly looked slow. Darren Helm missing was the only difference.

It may sound like I'm overrating him but I really can't overstate how valuable he is to this team.

 

[TatarTangle]

It may sound like I'm overrating him but I really can't overstate how valuable he is to this team.

You aren't. Speed is more of a disruption than size is, IMHO. You can't hit what you can't catch.

 

[HIFE]

With Philadelphia, Ottawa, Toronto and New Jersey all in action tonight, the Wings will probably be knocked out of playoff position before this one.

Right you are my friend, we are currently tied with PHI and out of the playoffs.

Edit: We aren't even tied with the Flyers

 

[detredWINgs]

All the things being said about Helm were concerns about Kronwall as well.

Also, as others have said, there's absolutely no point in trading Helm when he hasn't banished his injury demons. He's a grinder as it is so hes one of those guys whose value is more to his team than in a trade anyways.

 

[detredWINgs]

Helms no where near those other 2 players in skill. And at 26 he had a back problem and no specialist knew what the issue was. If he misses 40 to 50 games a season that's not much value to us. Let him play out his contract then decide but if I was the wings I would take a good look at other options

What benefit is it to the Wings to get rid of him if he's as injury prone as you suggest? His return in a trade would be negligible, his injuries keep him on LTIR, and his cap hit in either case is only going to be the difference between keeping some sad sack like Bertuzzi or Cleary. On the other hand, if he's in the lineup, he's a game-changing firecracker.

 

[RedWingzz]

I don't remember Helm missing a lot of time before the back issue. Groin problems are to be expected in the early stages of his return to playing after such a long time out. Maybe he'll get healthy and be healthy for a long time. Bottom line is we're not going to find another player like him easily, and even if we do what's to guarantee that guy will be less 'injury prone'? It's a frustrating time but let's not get carried away.

How long has it been? 2 years now? The guy is an absolute Band-Aid. It's tough to project lines or look at the roster and place guys in certain spots when the guy penciled in for the 3rd line center position is ALWAYS injured. It's not one of those cases when a player gets bad luck, and has a couple injuries, this guy has been hurt forever. It's just frustrating, he gets hurt, you wait a year, then there is talk, "Helm is back! Helm is back!", everyone gets all excited, then he goes down 2 games later and misses another 15 games. To be honest, I'm just irritated with waiting on this guy to be healthy, because he never is healthy.

 

[RedWingzz]

2014/01/11
Groin, injured reserve.

2014/01/01
Shoulder injury, day-to-day.

2013/12/30
Missed 11 games (shoulder injury).

2013/12/15
Shoulder injury, injured reserve.

2013/12/05
Shoulder injury, day-to-day.

2013/11/02
Missed 14 games (back injury).

2013/10/21
Recalled from Grand Rapids (AHL).

2013/10/15
Loaned to Grand Rapids (AHL) for conditioning.

2013/09/30
Back injury, injured reserve.

2013/05/29
Missed the last 44 regular season and first 14 playoff games (back injury).

2013/02/05
Back injury, injured reserve.

2013/01/27
Back injury, day-to-day.

2013/01/25
Missed 3 games (back injury).

2013/01/18
Back injury, injured reserve.

2012/06/19
Re-signed by the Detroit Red Wings to a four-year contract.

2012/04/20
Missed the last 4 playoff games (right forearm injury).

2012/04/13
Right forearm injury, remainder of the playoffs.

2012/04/11
Missed the last 10 regular season games (left knee injury).

2012/03/19
Left knee injury, sidelined indefinitely.

2012/01/08
Missed 4 games (groin).

 

[Pavels Dog]

How long has it been? 2 years now? The guy is an absolute Band-Aid. It's tough to project lines or look at the roster and place guys in certain spots when the guy penciled in for the 3rd line center position is ALWAYS injured. It's not one of those cases when a player gets bad luck, and has a couple injuries, this guy has been hurt forever. It's just frustrating, he gets hurt, you wait a year, then there is talk, "Helm is back! Helm is back!", everyone gets all excited, then he goes down 2 games later and misses another 15 games. To be honest, I'm just irritated with waiting on this guy to be healthy, because he never is healthy.

So you mean he hasn't had bad luck? He got back from injury in the Nashville series and was cut by a skate in pretty much his first shift. Injury prone? Then he gets a back issue that no one can diagnose that keeps him out of action a year.

This kid has to be more frustrated than we are. Give him some time to adjust to playing hockey again. Maybe he'll never be someone that plays 80 games per season but even at 60-70 games per year he's too valuable to just throw away.

 

[Frk It]

Being injury-prone, just means that for one reason or another a player is always injured, which Helm is. I don't know why people want to take the time to try and decipher which of his injuries should be attributed to luck vs which ones show a pattern. Who cares. At some point you just have to recognize that a guys always hurt, and odds are he's going to continue to keep getting hurt.

I mean it is what it is people.