Post-Game Talk: Detroit Red Wings at New York Rangers - November 24

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Having an "anything can happen" mentality seems very counter intuitive really.. trusting in "the lottery" is generally a very bad idea, and as a General Manager, i would think that the priority for any of them is to try to establish a solid base from which to build from. You also have to remember that the Rangers are a business.. and i really doubt that the following message would fly in the Rangers boardroom : "Gentlemen, on the extremely remote *cough* i mean guaranteed chance that we'll get a generational player in the next 5 years, i have decided that we should become the bottom feeder of the league for the next Decade.. when the unicor...erm.. when the Generational player is ready and we have a margina..*cough*... have an assured Stanley Cup run, you'll all thank me!".

Fair point, Dolan is largely a buffoon, how he would react is anyone's guess, but he has mostly stayed out of running the team, unlike with the Knicks. I've read that because he thinks he knows a lot about basketball and not a lot about hockey, thats why he does this. Hopefully he'd go along with the decision of the GM, but you are right, he might not do so.

What makes you think that Zucc wont give a deal on his next contract, he took a pay-cut on his current one. McD is slightly trickier in that he is probably going to seek a long and very expensive contract (ex. 6 years @ 7.5 mill or somewhere in that ballpark).

Because I just don't believe any player would leave that much money on the table over the course of their career, this is his last big contract. He did so once, which was very nice of him, I don't think he will again, and I actually think there will be an expectation from his side that we'll make concessions in the negotiations because of the good deal he gave us. I don't want any part of that. If he wants to stay, he has to once again take a very team-friendly deal.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

You are bringing forth a lot of things that are not concrete right now. Hank has to first show he can keep this level up before we can even speak about being a good team. If he doesn't and reverts to last season's play, we aren't making the playoffs because the rest of the team isn't as good.

This team does not look better than last year's team, we had 20 more points through 23 games last season. Through this part of the season, it looks considerably worse, and lets not forget that we've had very few injuries. Other than McDonagh for two games now, we've been very lucky with our lack of injuries so far this season.

And what you don't seem to grasp is that we've been involuntarily setting ourselves back for years, we've gotten worse, farther from Cup Contention, the results show that. Do you want to wait until we become the Red Wings where we try to make moves to make the playoffs but aren't good enough to do so? If we don't rebuild now, it'll be even harder in a few years. We have the assets right now to get big pieces back. If we wait 3-4 years, the value for McDonagh and Zuccarello will be much lower than it is now, and they'll be on big contracts, although you think Zuccarello is going to give the team another great contract. He did it the last time, I highly doubt he does it again.

But why do we have to go rebuild when most of the core of this team is young and we already have good pieces coming through the pipeline (I.E Lias, Chytil, Shesty, and even guys like Ronning to a slightly lesser extent). I understand selling off some ufa's if were not in the best of positions like St Louis did last year but its not like St. Louis decided to also trade Piterangelo and Stastny because they could have "great value"

 

[Machinehead]

Its not simple.

I'm not a McDonagh hater, at all, I defend his game a lot, but there's more to the equation than how good McDonagh is.

If the team is not going to contend the next 2-3 years, can we get more value out of trading him and what will his value be in 2-3 years compared to the value of the players we got in return? How will that value be effected by the big contract he will get after next season?

I'm not trading McDonagh to the highest bidder, I don't think that makes sense. Trade Zucc to the highest bidder, I think we need to get certain things back for McDonagh to be willing to trade him. He'd be one of the best players to be traded in years, so its a bigger consideration than trading Zucc who's a good player, but McDonagh is a different kettle of fish. If we don't get what we want, we re-sign him to a contract that will look bad the last few years, but its not a terrible option either. I don't think there are any terrible options here, McDonagh the first 3-4 years of that contract will be really good, but if we can get Sergachyov from Tampa or Chabot from Ottawa or Liljegren from Toronto, I'd consider trading McDonagh. I'd want more in return, but for us to trade McDonagh, I think it requires getting a young defenseman with first pair potential back in return.

Who made this decision that we're not contending for the next 3 years?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

But why do we have to go rebuild when most of the core of this team is young and we already have good pieces coming through the pipeline (I.E Lias, Chytil, Shesty, and even guys like Ronning to a slightly lesser extent). I understand selling off some ufa's if were not in the best of positions like St Louis did last year but its not like St. Louis decided to also trade Piterangelo and Stastny because they could have "great value"

Are McDonagh and Zuccarello young? They are getting towards 30, there has been no mention to sell everyone off, but if the team is not good enough to contend for a Stanley Cup, which they've shown the last few seasons, and I don't think the first 23 games are any better than the last two seasons, probably even worse, why wouldn't you give yourself the best chance when you could be good enough?

Its about being realistic with yourself, which I think Gorton will be at the deadline. Some seem to refuse to accept the team's general trend, look at where the bar is right now, we are just trying to get in. The last number of seasons that was a given.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Who made this decision that we're not contending for the next 3 years?

Look at the trend, we haven't the last two years, and we are struggling to even make the playoffs this season.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Are McDonagh and Zuccarello young? They are getting towards 30, there has been no mention to sell everyone off, but if the team is not good enough to contend for a Stanley Cup, which they've shown the last few seasons, and I don't think the first 23 games are any better than the last two seasons, probably even worse, why wouldn't you give yourself the best chance when you could be good enough?

Its about being realistic with yourself, which I think Gorton will be at the deadline. Some seem to refuse to accept the team's general trend, look at where the bar is right now, we are just trying to get in. The last number of seasons that was a given.

So you want us to get stuck in an Edmonton like rebuild where we are always at the bottom of the basement? Trading a top 2 dman who has no real replacement like McD will cause that. Sure rebuilding sounds nice but for every Chicago and Toronto theres even more Buffalo's, and Arizona's, and Florida's who are stuck in these endless rebuilds.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Okay, you are right, lets trend even further towards mediocrity to a point where we try to win, but are so bad that we end up getting one of the top picks in the draft. You'll really enjoy the season then, I'm sure.

This team was done after last season, probably even the season before, we couldn't even beat Ottawa in the playoffs last season, the window has shut. You seemingly can't accept that your team isn't any good, you can't accept the need to make changes that will make us a good team again.

 

[kovazub94]

Look at the trend, we haven't the last two years, and we are struggling to even make the playoffs this season.

Boy, this is something how you standby your convictions!

You used the right word "trend". Look where the team this season trending. You mentioned the last two years? This team is so much better even if there are a lot of the same players. But these players are better now than they were then and new ones are exactly what this team needed. Injuries aside if this team can get / stay hot around March / April it would be better and could do better than what last year's and a year before teams did.

@Machinehead is right: who said they can't compete in the next two years. Who said they can't compete now if things breaks certain way?

 

[DanielBrassard]

I can get on board with selling some guys off, but no reason we can't compete next season.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Given what McKenzie, Friedman, Dreger, Brooks are saying, it doesn't seem like the GM thinks this team is a real contender either, but we'll have to wait for his decision.

 

[Maximus]

This "Cup or Bust" mentality of some in here is borderline insanity.

We are NOT a mediocre team first off. I haven't taken the time to do the actual reserch but I'd bet a large chunk of money that in the past 10 years, other than the Penguins, Kings and Black Hawks, I doubt any other team has had more playoff success and regular season success than us and that includes teams like the Capitals, Blues,Wild,Preds, Bruins and any other teams you can think of.

I'd also bet a large portion of my hefty mortgage that by the time the season ends, we will once again be north of 95 points and likely approach last year's 101 pts or so.

And yet according to some we should deal a Ryan McDonagh and a Zuccarello and because we aren't good enough to supposedly win a Cup in wide open year that has no dominant team other than possibly Tampa and even they have some warts? Huh...what am I missing? I think NOT.

We made the playoffs last year and despite some of the same people in here who say we should deal our captain and Zucc, these same people were also saying that we were definitely going to swept by the Habs who we ended up beating convincingly. We absolutely should have beaten the Sens and made the ECF but due to our faulty backend, we gave up a ton of 2 goal leads and blew a every winnable series.

So what happened, Gorton over the offseason fixes our back end which was our biggest weakness last year and signs Shatty to fix our 2nd biggest weakness which was not having a PP QB, he resigns Smith who was excellent for us when we got him from the Wings, we deal Stepan who was slipping bigtime and gets assets like the #7 overall pick which turns out to be Lias Andersson which looks like it will be a solid pick, he gets DeAngelo who has bigtime upside and he gets the cap room to sign the aforementioned Shatty and yet we should still deal two of our best players? Ummmm....I think not.

Call me crazy but I think this year's team is significantly better than last year's team especially due to the King being the King again, Zibby emerging as a #1A center and our defense finally gelling and playing like the cohesive unit we all thought it would be.

And yet some certain people in here want to dismantle the team that has been retooling on the fly as IMO Gorton has done a masterful job ever since he got the gig from Sather. And they are saying this while the team has won 9 of past 11 and looks like it's finally playing like to be one off the best teams in the East as I for one thought before the season, they would be.

I don't know folks but this is what i was talking about yesterday. There are some people in here who will complain about anything and everything and even when things are going good, they always think the other shoe is going to fall and so we need to make changes. They are simply never ever happy...ever......

Screw that!!! We already made the changes for now during the off season. Let's see where things are at come the trade deadline. I'd bet a large amount of money that not only won't be trading assets of ours but in fact, we'll be trying to obtain another top line center for example from some team that is selling their assets so as to help us on another one of our fun and long playoff runs.....

Apologies for the long post but reading some of the same crap from the same people who are never ever happy with anything our team does gets me ticked and so I needed to say something. Don't know about y'all but I'd much rather make the playoffs year after year after year like we do and have a shot at a Cup than be the Islanders, Oiler or Devils who never make the playoffs but sure do "retool" every year..

OK, off the soap box....continue on....lol

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I've yet to see the rebuild crowd address the fact that Pitt/LA/Chicago are the exceptions rather than the rule.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

It’s really hard to be good in this league. Look st franchises like Arizona, Buffalo, Florida. They’ve been trying to be good for years and just can’t. We are good every year and people want to blow it up because we’re not perfect.

Edmonton has literally the best player in the league gifted to them and they still suck. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Maximus]

It’s really hard to be good in this league. Look st franchises like Arizona, Buffalo, Florida. They’ve been trying to be good for years and just can’t. We are good every year and people want to blow it up because we’re not perfect.

Edmonton has literally the best player in the league gifted to them and they still suck. Nothing is guaranteed.

Exactly GSC....you and I are obviously on the same page and I think most of us in here are as well. There are some tho who for whatever the f*** the reason think they are maybe smarter than everyone else, maybe want attention or simply don't see the reality of the situation publicly state contrarian beliefs which quite frankly at times defy logic.

Also, some of our brothers in here think the grass is always greener on the other side but in reality it really isn't. Would I and likely you or any of us have loved to have won another Cup or two since '94 in particularly since the "Dark Ages" end after the lockout? Obviously of course we would but we didn't for a variety of reasons which I don't have the time to go into nor do I feel like doing so as we all know the reasons anyways.

Here's the bottom line. We are the f***ing NY Rangers. And just like the sun comes up in the morning, we will never ever ever going to operate like a Buffalo, Arizona, Florida, Edmonton or any other bottom feeder team that is trying to become relevant operates. I for one feel like Jeff Gorton is alot smarter and more savvy than me or anyone of us in here tho it might be hard to convince a few of our brothers of this obvious fact...lol

Ever since being given the key to the car by Sather thank god, JG has IMO been masterful in his decision making and evaluation skills. I'm serious when I say this, I truly believe Gorton right there with the Rutherford's, Bowman's, Yzerman's....etc in the GM hierarchy. We are so lucky to have him and I think quite a few of us take him for granted. JG is very very good at his job. The only move of the dozens he's mad that I slightly question was the acquisition of Eric Staal and even that one, I blame AV more than Gorton for the fact it didn't work, due to AV not playing Staal in the right situations and with the right players but that's neither here nor there.

Last thing I'm going to say about this subject is this and I think this is pretty telling. A very good friend of mine who I went to college with in the mid 80's who just so happens to be a huge Islander fan recently admitted to me that he would if he could, he would have given up one of the 4 Cups his Islanders won back in the early 80's if his team could have had the success we have had as far as playoff appearances and chances at the Cup in the past 30 or so years.

He said if it would have meant he wouldn't have had to go thru so much misery that he has felt the past 35 years having missed the playoffs 75% of the time whereas the Rangers who he hates beyond belief have made the playoff 75% of the time during the same time period, he would have gladly given up a Cup.

That's amazing....I'm sorry but also very indicative of how much some of us in here take for granted how great this run we've been on for over a decade has been and which is not going to end anytime soon.

Seriously what my buddy says it all. Sure we haven't won any Cups in 24 years but here's a guy who would give up a Cup if he would have at least had a shot at one like we have had so many times seeing he know's we have had so much more hope, fun and enjoyment than he has and yet his team has 4 Cups and we have just one....go figure....

 

[Larrybiv]

Given what McKenzie, Friedman, Dreger, Brooks are saying, it doesn't seem like the GM thinks this team is a real contender either, but we'll have to wait for his decision.

If I play GM, would I publicly say that our team is "good enough" to contend and put all that pressure on the team "as it is"?
Or......do I say that we don't think our team is a "real contender" and allow an "us against them" mentality and trying to prove our GM wrong?
In other words, if they don't want to "lose a buddy or 2" then they probably should step it up and be MUCH BETTER with the team as it is now.
Or.....there will be changes.

I don't wanna lose Zuccha and McD, but there is that distinct possibility and we probably really NEED to do such. The league is passing them by, slowly but surely. Every team will lose a "fan favorite or 2", sustainability is the goal here and this might have to be done. Make teams "overpay". Get something good for Nash and allow him to come back next year at a discount, a huge discount. The Nash deal can be done without giving up on the season by bringing up Chytil or Lettieri.

 

[Placid]

Get something good for Nash and allow him to come back next year at a discount, a huge discount. The Nash deal can be done without giving up on the season by bringing up Chytil or Lettieri.

Who in their right minds would trade for Nash now, isn't this his last contract year ? The very best one could hope for if you absolutely want to trade him is probably as a rental for the playoffs, if we are not in the race ourselves. Next year he'll be a UFA, and can sign wherever he wants.

 

[Larrybiv]

Yeah Placid, that's what I meant. I'm not desperate to trading him......love Mashed and believe it or not.....a big part of the makeup of this team.

 

[Placid]

Yeah Placid, that's what I meant. I'm not desperate to trading him......love Mashed and believe it or not.....a big part of the makeup of this team.

I think we all agree that Nash is nowhere close to defending his cap hit

But he is a very solid player on both ends (when he doesn't try to do everything himself). If he is not traded and re-signs with the Rangers, it would be for a very significant pay-cut i would think. Personally, i really like him, just not at his current salary

 

[Mac n Gs]

This team has too much young talent, in the NHL and in the wings, to tank and rebuild. They already have a first and second line center, three studs to play the wing, and a stud on defense. This is just in the NHL. We have the best goalie in the world that's not an NHL player in our system. We have a kid that just turned 18 in Hartford who's scoring at a PPG pace and made the NHL out of training camp. We have another top young forward who's been scoring at a PPG pace in the SHL after having a rough go with travel and fatigue over the summer. This isn't just a scenario where, "Everyone is in a situation like that, or everyone has prospects like that."

If you want to make another tough trade and move Zucc in a similar deal to Brassard, fine. Moving Nash should be a foregone conclusion because someone will pony up to bolster their team for a playoff run. I think moving McDonagh isn't going to happen because they'll never get the value that's right for him in a trade unless it's bringing back a young stud on D that's equivalent to a Sergyachev, Hanafin, or Provorov. So if you're looking at the big picture, they have one big deadline move they'll make in Nash, and maybe one tough offseason trade that's gonna make us all upset.

Where's the rebuild? There's just too much talent to tear this thing down and nuke it down for the hopes of a top draft pick. It's just not going to happen.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This team has too much young talent, in the NHL and in the wings, to tank and rebuild. They already have a first and second line center, three studs to play the wing, and a stud on defense. This is just in the NHL. We have the best goalie in the world that's not an NHL player in our system. We have a kid that just turned 18 in Hartford who's scoring at a PPG pace and made the NHL out of training camp. We have another top young forward who's been scoring at a PPG pace in the SHL after having a rough go with travel and fatigue over the summer. This isn't just a scenario where, "Everyone is in a situation like that, or everyone has prospects like that."

If you want to make another tough trade and move Zucc in a similar deal to Brassard, fine. Moving Nash should be a foregone conclusion because someone will pony up to bolster their team for a playoff run. I think moving McDonagh isn't going to happen because they'll never get the value that's right for him in a trade unless it's bringing back a young stud on D that's equivalent to a Sergyachev, Hanafin, or Provorov. So if you're looking at the big picture, they have one big deadline move they'll make in Nash, and maybe one tough offseason trade that's gonna make us all upset.

Where's the rebuild? There's just too much talent to tear this thing down and nuke it down for the hopes of a top draft pick. It's just not going to happen.

I agree mostly but there's no way Lundqvist is still the best goalie in the world.

 

[AKA Chief]

All of the sudden trading McD doesn't seem like such a crazy idea.

This is called sarcasm, yes?

If not, then let me mention that having Hank face 41 SOG and having Ranger Dmen turning over the puck or failing to clear the zone will not be recipes for success. (Kampfer's failure to clear the zone led to the DET goal and there was more than one Ranger D turnover that led to a great DET scoring opportunity.

If anything, this game showed just how valuable McD is.

 

[Mordeth]

Postgame thread talking about rebuilding or not.

And we have a game in a few hours.

@Loffen

 

[Leonardo87]

Postgame thread talking about rebuilding or not.

And we have a game in a few hours.

@Loffen

Let’s do that hockey!

 

[Megustaelhockey]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/24-11-26-17-canucks-rangers-2-00-msg.2415783/