Proposal: Detroit - Montreal

Djp

Registered User
Jul 28, 2012
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Alexandria, VA
60pts dman @5M. Find me a better deal for a Dman his age
Most of that increased pt production can be attributed to PP time and regularly getting pairing with off line/ zone draws.
Hr had a 20 pt jump in PP production

Hes not going to maintain that production on team who have a LD PP person.
 
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malcb33

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Apr 10, 2005
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New Zealand
Matheson alone is worth 15OA and that's even without trying
If a team in the middle first round would be willing to trade their pick for Matheson, Hughes should pull the trigger.

I understand he’s one of the few vets the team has and a major part of the offense from the back end, but he’s not part of the long term plan IMO. Ghule can play 1LHD and there’s lots of other options for 2/3LHD.
 

TT1

Registered User
May 31, 2013
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Montreal
If a team in the middle first round would be willing to trade their pick for Matheson, Hughes should pull the trigger.

I understand he’s one of the few vets the team has and a major part of the offense from the back end, but he’s not part of the long term plan IMO. Ghule can play 1LHD and there’s lots of other options for 2/3LHD.
well i think it's the same reason why he didn't trade Anderson last off-season when it was rumored that he had several good offers for him, he probably thinks vets like Matheson/Anderson are needed for the rebuild and theyre not that old

in hindsight of course he should have moved Anderson of course :laugh:
 

malcb33

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Apr 10, 2005
1,169
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New Zealand
well i think it's the same reason why he didn't trade Anderson last off-season when it was rumored that he had several good offers for him, he probably thinks vets like Matheson/Anderson are needed for the rebuild and theyre not that old

in hindsight of course he should have moved Anderson of course :laugh:
I can understand that line of thinking, but the Habs need to hit a home run with a forward and if Matheson gives Hughes another chance to land one, he should do it. I would put money on Matheson not repeating his offensive output this year, so his value won't be higher. Although he's not directly replaceable internally, Montreal is deepest on LHD and at least one has to be moved.

I also don't see a perfect fit for the teams drafting 11- 16 (below) but I'm not an expert on what they're looking to do next year. Maybe the Blues, Wild or SJ? But are they rebuilding or looking to compete?

Buffalo SabresDahlin, Byram, Bryson
Philadelphia FlyersYork, Seeler, Zamula
Minnesota WildMiddleton, Brodin, Merrill
San Jose *Ferraro, Vlasic, Thrun
Detroit Red WingsChiarot, Edvinsson, Maataa
St. Louis BluesPerunovich, Leddy, Scandella
 
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RationalExpectations

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May 12, 2019
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Nobody is giving you a 1st for Matheson, let alone a top 15 pick
I don t know about 15OA but saying no team would pay a 1st + for a top 4D man paid below 5m for two years seems like a very bad take. Chiarot Hanifin Walker all got 1st + at TDL, McCabe Provorov got 1st with longer deals. I would argue only Hanifin is a better player than Matheson of those players mentioned above.

If you are looking for a 2nd pairing D able to play QB to your PP1 Matheson is the perfect fit.

Matheson or not, I think fans overrate picks. Your 15OA won t be ready before 3 years at least and DET has not made the playoffs in 8 years. Pretty sure they would not hesitate dealing it for an impact player.
 
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CanadienShark

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Dec 18, 2012
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Nobody is giving you a 1st for Matheson, let alone a top 15 pick
I disagree. I'm nowhere near as high on Matheson as many Habs fans, but he is for sure worth a late 1st. Top 15 seems like a huge stretch though. I think 25-32 is very reasonable and realistic.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
I don t know about 15OA but saying no team would pay a 1st + for a top 4D man paid below 5m for two years seems like a very bad take. Chiarot Hanifin Walker all got 1st + at TDL, McCabe Provorov got 1st with longer deals. I would argue only Hanifin is a better player than Matheson of those players mentioned above.

If you are looking for a 2nd pairing D able to play QB to your PP1 Matheson is the perfect fit.

Matheson or not, I think fans overrate picks. Your 15OA won t be ready before 3 years at least and DET has not made the playoffs in 8 years. Pretty sure they would not hesitate dealing it for an impact player.
Hanifin is a fantastic 2-way defenseman in his prime and was retained on, Chiarot's cap hit when he was traded to Florida was ~350k and it was widely considered an overpayment, and Philly took on Johansen in the Walker trade. So unless Montreal is retaining on Matheson, or taking on a bad contract you should definitely lower your expectations.

You are right that Detroit probably would trade that pick for an impact player in a heartbeat but Matheson is not that. He got caved in at 5v5 and only produced on the power play. If all Detroit wanted was a LD to run the power play they would just re-sign Gostisbehere.
 

RationalExpectations

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May 12, 2019
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Hanifin is a fantastic 2-way defenseman in his prime and was retained on, Chiarot's cap hit when he was traded to Florida was ~350k and it was widely considered an overpayment, and Philly took on Johansen in the Walker trade. So unless Montreal is retaining on Matheson, or taking on a bad contract you should definitely lower your expectations.

You are right that Detroit probably would trade that pick for an impact player in a heartbeat but Matheson is not that. He got caved in at 5v5 and only produced on the power play. If all Detroit wanted was a LD to run the power play they would just re-sign Gostisbehere.

You are right for Hanifin, which is why I did not argue Matheson was better. Chiarot cap hit was 1.75m when traded and not sure what you call an overpayment. If you think a D will make the difference between 1st round exit and stanley cup final, you do that trade.

People would say VGK was stupid to trade Suzuki for Pacioretty but they traded Bransstrom for Stone which was a steal. You don t know what a prospect or a pick will be, that s why they don t hold as much much value as fans think they do.
 

Petes2424

Registered User
Aug 4, 2005
8,099
2,418
Montreal
15 OA pick
Ville Husso (1 year cap dump)

Detroit
Mike Matheson
Owen Beck
Think Detroit is gonna be after a different type of dman if they move that pick for a Top 4 blue liner. Someone who has some offense, but just doesn’t play so wide open at times. Someone who can play more of a structured game. More of a Shea Theodore type.

The Wings are now at a different stage building their roster. Seider and Edvinsson are pretty much penciled in to being their primary “Pair Carrying” Dmen for the next 7-10 years, so you always have to be careful bringing in a guy who is so unpredictable. It’s different if one develops in your system like ASP, Wallinder and Gibson (you deal with it, make trades, etc) but you have to be careful using assets and big money for such a wild card dman… At least under these circumstances. Doesn’t mean only offensive dman do this either. Ben Chiarot struggles with it. Trying to do too much, not knowing where to pick his spots, or better yet, recognize that he’s a much better supporting, role playing Dman, than someone who’s gonna drive the ship every night.

Good bet too, the Wings will be the front runner to sign Detroit native Matt Roy, if he makes it to July 1, and as of right now, that appears to be the case. His attributes are perfect for what they want, with his hits, blocked shots, and solid all around, structured game. Who can be a Grade A supporting role player on defense, to upgrade Edvinsson’s partner going forward. Even if they trade for another Dman at the draft, it’s safe to say Matt Roy is Detroit’s most likely UFA target, carrying on Detroit’s recent trend of bringing in Detroit natives, who want to play for the team.

From everything being thrown around, Detroit’s going into the off-season with Seider, Chiarot, Edvinsson and Petry. Everything else will build on that, whether with newcomers or what they have under contract. Plus, neither Petry nor Chiarot will likely see another contract in Detroit. It’s also no secret why Johansson has been playing on the right side in Grand Rapids over the last month. He’s likely gonna be #6/7 and split time with Petry (mainly) next year.

If they add Matt Roy, you’re looking at one more, and that’s the spot where a big trade could happen. Whether it happens pre/post draft.

We’re already hearing the Maatta speculation, as they start clearing some players out. Good bet he’s gone prior to the draft for a 3rd Rd pick (Utah), and we’ll likely start hearing about Walman being shopped too. Possibly in any trade with this pick. As for Holl, they should be able to trade him, even if they had to keep a million, but if not, they’ll likely buy him out. As for Ghost, it’s probably a wait and see thing. If they can clear those guys out, and don’t see an option to bring someone in for that role, then they’ll probably resign him. If Ghost gets a big contract as a UFA, they’ll look at someone like a Justin Schultz to fill that role. There’s gonna be options if they don’t trade for a Dman, to maintain the offense Ghost generated.

So they’re going to turnover some of that blue line, and 100% would trade that pick, in a deal for the right dman. Think that definition is much closer to a Shea Theodore than a Matheson though.

One other thing that’s out there. Do NOT be surprised if the 15OA is involved in any type trade. Even for a forward, but more specifically a goaltender, rather than a Dman. Don’t discount Saros to Detroit. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if Saros or Markstrom is Detroit’s starting goaltender next season. They really will need someone they can count on as Cossa and Augustine start making a push. Augustine is way ahead of any schedule they had envisioned when they drafted him last year. You’re not on the National Team as a 19 year old kid, just for the fun of it. He can still play World Juniors again in December, but played in the World Championships yesterday. There’s no development curve with him being a big goaltender, who’s body has to catch up to his skills, like we see in today’s NHL. He’s much more of a natural talent like a Carter Hart was.

But yea, starting to hear Detroit is gonna likely do some things on the blue line, to surround Seider and Edvinsson with quality partners moving forward. Where contracts are tiered to fall of the books, as the years go by, making room for more of their stable of young Dmen. More of a detailed plan, than just filling spots with NHL caliber players, like they have been.
 

eojsmada

Registered User
Oct 23, 2022
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Montreal says no. They don't need Husso. They have Montembault and Primeau for the next few years. Losing Matheson would be bad for them as well.
 

Sparty

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Oct 2, 2015
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If the Wings are going to trade for a defenseman, they probably need to send one out as well
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
difference is Matheson is a 24-25 min a night all situation dman as well, not just a PP specialist
No he's not. The only reason he plays that many minutes in Montreal is because they have 3 defensemen on their roster over the age of 23 and one of them is a #6/7 in Kovacevic. He wouldn't have even averaged 20 minutes a night in Chicago this season
 
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TT1

Registered User
May 31, 2013
23,743
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Montreal
No he's not. The only reason he plays that many minutes in Montreal is because they have 3 defensemen on their roster over the age of 23 and one of them is a #6/7 in Kovacevic. He wouldn't have even averaged 20 minutes a night in Chicago this season
i'm saying what he did, you're speculating

Matheson is a legit good player, i dunno what we're arguing about here


but anyways this type of talk isn't new, just read that thread
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
i'm saying what he did, you're speculating

Matheson is a legit good player, i dunno what we're arguing about here


but anyways this type of talk isn't new, just read that thread
Yes yes, very good player. Super effective at 5v5
1715640981591.png
 

TT1

Registered User
May 31, 2013
23,743
6,234
Montreal
Yes yes, very good player. Super effective at 5v5 View attachment 870222
ah yes the classic adv stats expert, tell me you haven't seen him play without telling me

just like how Toffoli wouldn't get a good return, Monahan wouldn't get a good return and Lindholm was better, Chiarot wasn't gonna get a first, Lehkonen was an overrated player etc etc, its endless

there's a reason why players don't have great advanced stats when they're on weak teams, context matters
 
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Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
ah yes the classic adv stats expert, tell me you haven't seen him play without telling me

just like how Toffoli wouldn't get a good return, Monahan wouldn't get a good return and Lindholm was better, Chiarot wasn't gonna get a first, Lehkonen was an overrated player etc etc, its endless

there's a reason why players don't have great advanced stats when they're on weak teams, context matters
Weird argument considering I called the Toffoli trade almost exactly as it came out over a month before it happened
1715644776824.png


I also strongly argued in favor of Monahan returning a 1st even after Calgary dumped him.

Matheson was heavily sheltered on a good Pittsburgh team. He's just simply not that good. Also a lot of players do have good advanced stats on weak teams
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
69,047
26,481
East Coast
Montreal
15 OA pick
Ville Husso (1 year cap dump)

Detroit
Mike Matheson
Owen Beck

I'd be interested in taking a cap dump but not sure we can do it with a goalie.

Matheson won't be traded unless it is pry away value. 60+ pts guy and someone who can QB a PP. His puck moving is elite level with his skating/vision. He's really shown maturity in his late 20's with MSL. On a great value contract too. In this tight salary cap league, Matheson has very good trade value.

Beck and Kapanen are the depth at center after Suzuki/Dach in our pool. Doubt we move either of them.

Not even sure if I would do this:
* Matheson
for
* 15th OA
* Husso (with the intent on buying him out).

You won't like it but I'd ask for your 25th or 26th 1st (lottery protected) to take on Husso and buy him out. Matheson alone is worth the 15th pick.
 

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