Destruction of the Prospects

theguardianII

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Jan 30, 2020
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Without intention, the team is flushing many prospects futures and values down the toilet.

Let's just follow a prospect's career time line;

As an amateur he plays a system for his coach and gets recognized as one to top players at his age group, draft year, in the world usually as a scoring talent resulting in a higher draft pick.

Then in Vancouver.
A player introduced to a new system, (Green's system) one he has to learn and conform to.
Maybe bounced up and down so exposed to two new systems year one.
Year two, he has to learn another new system, (Bruce's system), a more open system.
Practices all summer for that system.
Half way through year three, Tocchet steps in and has "structure", another new demand.
Because they haven't mastered or attained enough NHL time they get to be yoyo's
Now in just their 3rd/4th NHL season they are on their 4th system and maybe up to 6 coachces (AHL)

Players drafted for certain skills are now struggling and maybe confused about just what they should be doing.

Expectations are different for each coach and system.

Play this way and become one of the best in the world, NO, play this way to make the NHL, NO NO, this isn't the way I want you to play be more relaxed out there, NO NO NO, you need to be board guys and play this way, until you do you won't get icetime

Is there at least some reason there may be some confusion, loss of confidence or self doubt? The harder they try the more it is "deer in the headlights".

Paralysis by analysis. Afraid to make a mistake. Taking a micro second to look just to make sure. Delaying and slowing down. They get benched first.

Confidence results in; Do, don't think. It becomes instinct. Comfortable.

Is there doubt as to why Canuck prospects seem to going backwards.

Podkolzin was never expected to be a scoring machine but he was thought to be better than Joshua but it seems he has been pigeon holed to be a top six guy, told he has be a certain type of player, even though his scouting report states he is very defensively responsible and NHL ready and his first games showed that he was, suddenly it is not enough. Is that maybe because the team's record is pressing for instant results over the last 4 years?

Hoglander was another that appeared to be good enough at first, fast and good on the boards then suddenly, not good enough defensively on a team with pitiful defence over all.

Rathbone, on the cusp, should be could be NHL ready, best on the farm for 3 years at least reported that way.

They thought that about Chatfield when he was here too, not good enough here but suddenly a key defender for a cup contender.

Has team defence and desperation for instant results confusing and eroding prospect confidence?

Do it this way, no this way, no this way and now, no this way. That is what Hoglander, Rathbone, Podkolzin have seen so far.

"It is your fault you are not defensive enough" even though the whole team is defensively challenged and sometimes the players are not even on the playing roster.
 
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Vector

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Screen_Shot_2020-07-24_at_11.33.38_AM.jpg
 

Reverend Mayhem

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I think some generally decent prospects got lost in the shuffle. I heard on the radio there was a player who didn't even have a skating coach til last year. That said, sometimes players just don't make the grade even though they seemed like decent prospects until they had to make the NHL/AHL jump.

I don't think Rathbone or Podkolzin suffered for it. I think Rathbone just doesn't have a spot on this team so long as Hughes is on it, I don't even know why we are keeping him. Pod just seems like he lacks confidence in general, both coaches have spoke glowingly about what he could do, but Bruce coaching for his life didn't help last year. Our overall development has historically sucked ass, though. I remember complaining about it in 2010 with the Moose, and though I was probably wrong, it got so much worse in Utica/Chicago.
 
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THRILLHOIAF

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Jul 26, 2019
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Can't be overstated enough just how bad the development system was from like 2015-2021. Like utterly nonexistent development process. No development coaches in Utica, just Cull and his assistants with zero communication to Travis Green or management. A total island. The emphasis on "MORE PRACTICE TIME" in Utica was complete BS and arguably cost this team several capable NHL contributors.

Chatfield was rushed into an NHL role during the north division season because the team was trying to save cash. And he honestly wasn't even that bad. He showed the wheels and defensive play that didn't look completely out of place for the NHL. It's just that the team had no talented veteran defenceman on its roster that could play defence that could help him along.

Rathbone came out of the NCAA at a brutal time. Suffered a brutal injury in his first year in the AHL. Then, in his second year, he earns an NHL spot out of camp, the season's a disaster, so he gets sent to the AHL where he's now lost the spot he'd earned under Cull in the previous season to Christian Wolanin. Instead of prime 5v5 and power play ice time, it's a lot of 5v5 play in second pairing minutes and PK time, crushing his production and limiting his "highlight reel output." He could still surprise at this camp under Tocchet, but sometimes the timeline just works against a player!
 

Vector

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Feb 2, 2007
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Here's how I look at all the prospects from the previous regime and where they stand now.

Canucks:
Thatcher Demko
Brock Boeser
Elias Pettersson
Quinn Hughes

Other Teams:
Jared McCann
Gustav Forsling

Bust:
Jake Virtanen
Adam Gaudette
Olli Juolevi
William Lockwood
Michael DiPietro

Depth:
Guillaume Brisebois
Kole Lind
Jonah Gadjovich
Jack Rathbone
Jett Woo

Developing:
Vasiliy Podkolzin
Nils Hoglander
Arturs Silovs
Aidan Mcdonough

Prospect:
Jacob Truscott
Joni Jurmo
Danila Klimovich

That's atrocious for a team that only made the playoffs during COVID in this entire span. It's partially on drafting and partially on developing. I've long said that you'd think they luck into at least a depth defender or 4th line winger but couldn't even do that. At least now it looks like Brisebois, with two years under a revamped development system, has a shot of at least being a late-blooming depth defender. The prospect pipeline from their last two drafts is barren.
 

Balls Mahoney

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Since the beginning of time this organization has bizarrely mishandled and given zero f***s about player development, most notably with awful AHL management. Aside from a small window under Gillis with the Utica program, which I think was one of the biggest successes of the most successful era of the Canucks. This organization basically treats their affiliates like Siberia. We were fortunate to have Manitoba who were basically an independent pro team the Canucks affiliated with. I don't even know who our AHL team is anymore but it's guaranteed whatever the situation is, is the cheapest possible for ownership and filled with Canucks alumn who were good soldiers but probably out of their depth in team management.

Speaking about Utica under Gillis. That truly was a breath of fresh air in one of the most obvious things for a NHL franchise. Obviously your AHL club is everything since it is literally forecasting and building your future in every respect on the ice and behind the bench. Gillis building a team in an AHL central hub with so much effort going into development was one of the reasons those successful teams always had a cast of hard working grinders who filled the bottom six and did the dirty work for those teams. The mismanagement and cheaping out on development since then has been maddening.

Manitoba back in the day was amazing because it was a throw back to old school hockey where you had a ton of different independent pro leagues and organizations. It was a lot of fun having them as an affiliate. I believe that organization was so successful that they were the predecessor for the Winnipeg Jets coming into the league. But I believe a lot of the success from that organization was in-house. But those fun successful Manitoba teams were again, a foundation of the success of the Crawford years and led to players like Alex Burrows breaking onto the team.

Obviously player development is the most important thing for a NHL team. Success stories like Detroit, Tampa Bay, Las Vegas, etc all share a theme of exceptional player development. There needs to be competition at every position at every step of an organization since a NHL team demands so many bodies with numbers, roles and injuries. You also need surprises, dark horses and a constant cast of NHL capable grinders/tweeners to financially build a successful team over 100+ games a year. This organization thinks NHL players appear out of thin air or that you have to pay double their value in free agency with how they have handled their player development and scouting. There's literally no other way to interpret their behavior.
 
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Diogenes92

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Dec 13, 2014
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It's quite obvious that the Canucks have struggled to develop prospects for a long time. This goes back multiple regimes.

With where the Canucks were drafting during Benning's "tenure" they should've had more to show for it by now. Plain and simple. It didn't help that he traded away picks even when his teams sucked.
 

credulous

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Nov 18, 2021
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i'm not saying i think the canucks have been blameless in the lack of development in their prospects but is their any team in the nhl that can boast a player development department that turns marginal prospects into nhl players?

i think the canucks results come down way more on the side of bad drafting, impatience with young players and being spendthrift with picks and prospects than it does on them neglecting player development
 
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theguardianII

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Jan 30, 2020
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Quickly on Rathbone, he fired off a 98+ MPH shot at the net.

The old Moose team, Burrows was actually signed first by the Moose but quickly picked up by the Nucks.
I don't even know who our AHL team is anymore but it's guaranteed whatever the situation is, is the cheapest possible for ownership and filled with Canucks alumn who were good soldiers but probably out of their depth in team management.
Abbotsford and in no way cheap to be there, highest transportation costs in the AHL or one of the top two.
Sedin's spend a lot of time there.
The mismanagement and cheaping out on development since then has been maddening.
Benning, Benning, Benning. He was the guy running or not running the show. I complained about Benning's development system, leave them where they are, Europe or University or junior leagues.

If a rookie didn't make the team right away they evaporated. Or were traded for cannon fodder so good teams could make the playoffs or cup runs via relieving cap problems for those teams AND giving them much higher draft picks to boot.

Benning should have his name on two cups one for Tampa (maybe two) and Vegas's (allowed for Pietroangelo signing)
 

Balls Mahoney

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Quickly on Rathbone, he fired off a 98+ MPH shot at the net.

The old Moose team, Burrows was actually signed first by the Moose but quickly picked up by the Nucks.

Abbotsford and in no way cheap to be there, highest transportation costs in the AHL or one of the top two.
Sedin's spend a lot of time there.

Benning, Benning, Benning. He was the guy running or not running the show. I complained about Benning's development system, leave them where they are, Europe or University or junior leagues.

If a rookie didn't make the team right away they evaporated. Or were traded for cannon fodder so good teams could make the playoffs or cup runs via relieving cap problems for those teams AND giving them much higher draft picks to boot.

Benning should have his name on two cups one for Tampa (maybe two) and Vegas's (allowed for Pietroangelo signing)

I said for an entire era. Benning was a biblical plague for this team unlike anything witnessed in the history of Pro Sports. It was so stupefying. Darcy Hordichuk? Derek Dorsett? Literally one of the funniest things I've ever seen was Eric Gudbranson's shot in person. Those Benning years broke me as a hockey fan.

Couple other names in that Manitoba Moose list were Rick Rypien, Aaron Volpatti, Guillaume Desbiens, Alex Bolduc, Jasson Jaffary... I could rattle off a bunch I think, but those Manitoba years always seemed to have a great cast of tweeners bouncing between teams. The Moose were arguably better at scouting than Canucks were.
 

Yultron

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Apr 18, 2017
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Here's how I look at all the prospects from the previous regime and where they stand now.

Canucks:
Thatcher Demko
Brock Boeser
Elias Pettersson
Quinn Hughes

Other Teams:
Jared McCann
Gustav Forsling

Bust:
Jake Virtanen
Adam Gaudette
Olli Juolevi
William Lockwood
Michael DiPietro

Depth:
Guillaume Brisebois
Kole Lind
Jonah Gadjovich
Jack Rathbone
Jett Woo

Developing:
Vasiliy Podkolzin
Nils Hoglander
Arturs Silovs
Aidan Mcdonough

Prospect:
Jacob Truscott
Joni Jurmo
Danila Klimovich

That's atrocious for a team that only made the playoffs during COVID in this entire span. It's partially on drafting and partially on developing. I've long said that you'd think they luck into at least a depth defender or 4th line winger but couldn't even do that. At least now it looks like Brisebois, with two years under a revamped development system, has a shot of at least being a late-blooming depth defender. The prospect pipeline from their last two drafts is barren.

This couldn’t have been written any better , this is absolutely an albatross and simply embarrassing and I agree with everything said here .

At least Allvin and Rutherford have slowly started to clean this mess and have restructured the front office and overhauled the minor league operations and we are seeing potential from the prospects we have drafted in the later rounds and good value picks the last two years like Pettersson 2.0 in the 3rd round , and Brewstewicz in the 2nd round this year , Alriksson in the 4th , Kudryavstev in the 7th so hopefully this gets us back on track
 

theguardianII

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Jan 30, 2020
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I said for an entire era. Benning was a biblical plague for this team unlike anything witnessed in the history of Pro Sports.
I am sue he has THE WORST GM RECORD EVER IN THE NHL in every category;
Most money spent for the fewest points, over a billion dollars
Worst win/loss record
Most useless clause contracts
Most FA's allowed to walkaway for nothing
Most Cup winning teams he gave cap relief and high picks to, both Tampa and Vegas.
Worst trades
Worst draft record, most 10 ten picks not on the team either blown outright or traded away.
Worst farm system, from bad due to being a winning club with very late picks to worse with great draft picks.
Biggest devaluation of a NHL team.
Most concussed players signed to term contracts.

But

He did expose the most simple minded fanatics that still blame Gillis because they are told to.
 
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WetcoastOrca

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Benning hit home runs on EP and Hughes.
But a team that has been bad as long as the Canucks should have one of the top prospect pools in the league. I don’t think you can overstate just how much damage the previous regime inflicted on this franchise in terms of trading way too many picks, signing brutal contracts, the OEL trade, mediocre drafting and awful player development . And ownership bears a huge chunk of the blame for leaving them in place for so long.
Kudos to new management for addressing a lot of these issues and keeping ownership out of the mix.
 

SeawaterOnIce

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Generally, I exclude any draft picks made after the third round from being labeled as busts. These players are often long-shots. Rathbone is seen as a bust because the previous management group along with shills really propped this guy up as a key prospect - when it was obvious he had massive glaring issues in his game.

Really, the biggest failure was totally missing out on Tkachuk and Ehlers/Nylander. Those were horrendous errors that was obvious to most people here.

McCanns development was really derailed here.
 
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TruGr1t

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Jun 26, 2003
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A large part of this is obviously simply trading so many 1st rounders. There'd be a couple of other prospects in the cupboard almost certainly if you hadn't.

The other side is some mystifying late-round drafting that frankly continues into this new regime with the organization's propensity for selecting low-ceiling, over-age players, which basically end up being throw-aways. The organization has not always seemed particularly concerned with drafting for ceiling.

Development is probably, and continues to be, one of the issues, but looking at the bust list I don't think you can really flag development as the issue in most cases ... those were just bad picks.

It's just what happens when you run at a draft pick deficit for ten years, draft generally poorly in the later rounds, and miss on a couple of the first rounders you actually do keep.
 

theguardianII

Registered User
Jan 30, 2020
3,259
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At least Allvin and Rutherford have slowly started to clean this mess
Why slowly?
They still have to do what was identified 3 years ago.

Afraid to miss the playoffs? To lose games?

They could have cleaned the slate, front office and on ice very quickly as long as they accepted they were not going to win every trade and used the cap smartly.

In one season most of the cap issues could have been corrected without an OEL buyout. Hell they traded away 4 draft picks for one player essentially already. Trade Miller, keep Dickinson and use that pick as a sweetener for an OEL trade. Do the Miller trade. There is over 13 mil in cap space right there with one draft pick traded and one 50% retention for 4 years (about 3.2mil) but getting back the pick in the Rangers/Islanders Miller trade.
As a favour put Horvat on an auction. He would probably get similar offers.

One year, all the bad stuff put on Benning.

i'm not saying i think the canucks have been blameless in the lack of development in their prospects but is their any team in the nhl that can boast a player development department that turns marginal prospects into nhl players?

i think the canucks results come down way more on the side of bad drafting, impatience with young players and being spendthrift with picks and prospects than it does on them neglecting player development
Chicago, Tampa
 

Breakers

Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Aug 5, 2014
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Owner will never care about prospects

He operates in a world of Free-agency is hockey heaven
always has
always will

How does one address a problem???
you first have to acknowledge that it exists

The owner doesnt care about prospects or picks so why would he care development.
 
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bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
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Here's how I look at all the prospects from the previous regime and where they stand now.

Canucks:
Thatcher Demko
Brock Boeser
Elias Pettersson
Quinn Hughes

Other Teams:
Jared McCann
Gustav Forsling

Bust:
Jake Virtanen
Adam Gaudette
Olli Juolevi
William Lockwood
Michael DiPietro

Depth:
Guillaume Brisebois
Kole Lind
Jonah Gadjovich
Jack Rathbone
Jett Woo

Developing:
Vasiliy Podkolzin
Nils Hoglander
Arturs Silovs
Aidan Mcdonough

Prospect:
Jacob Truscott
Joni Jurmo
Danila Klimovich

That's atrocious for a team that only made the playoffs during COVID in this entire span. It's partially on drafting and partially on developing. I've long said that you'd think they luck into at least a depth defender or 4th line winger but couldn't even do that. At least now it looks like Brisebois, with two years under a revamped development system, has a shot of at least being a late-blooming depth defender. The prospect pipeline from their last two drafts is barren.
Atrocious by what standard? You may or may not be right but you haven't actually measured or compared anything.

I am reminded of the chestnut that Gillis left the team with a decent set of prospects. When that claim was actually measured it turned out not to be true, although it felt truthy to a lot of people.
 

Vector

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Feb 2, 2007
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Junktown
Atrocious by what standard? You may or may not be right but you haven't actually measured or compared anything.

I am reminded of the chestnut that Gillis left the team with a decent set of prospects. When that claim was actually measured it turned out not to be true, although it felt truthy to a lot of people.

Actually...I have. A few years ago I went through every single team and compared how they did with Benning's Canucks. Canucks came bottom in the league in NHL games played by draft picks and picks that developed into NHL players.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
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Actually...I have. A few years ago I went through every single team and compared how they did with Benning's Canucks. Canucks came bottom in the league in NHL games played by draft picks and picks that developed into NHL players.
This overlooks, among other things, that the team traded two draft picks for a 26-year old who has been a high-end 1st line forward for 4 seasons since. I'm not saying you're wrong overall, just that your methodology is a bit two-dimensional.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,153
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Just arguing for the sake of arguing eh
It's amazing that the mention of Benning still confers a state where otherwise reasonable people approve of and participate in anti-intellectual bleating. Yeah -- if you trade picks for a young controllable star that prceeds to lead your team in scoring, it has a definite influence on the value created through drafting that should probably form a part of any analysis of that drafting. That doesn't seem all that controversial.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,153
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Actually...I have. A few years ago I went through every single team and compared how they did with Benning's Canucks. Canucks came bottom in the league in NHL games played by draft picks and picks that developed into NHL players.
Those two metrics are almost completely worthless in evaluating draft success. Look at Colmbus' roster, for example -- the team has generally been mediocre since 2014. The roster has many individual players drafted in the that time range, and most of them are in the lineup regularly. 2 scored more than 14 points and none scored more than 40.
 

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