Confirmed with Link: Derrick Pouliot's here because reasons. Part 1. (#859)

[docbenton]

Yet we have need to toss away a draft pick for a crappy defenseman who's not an NHL calibre player?

Because the player has potential to develop into a top-4 PPQB defenseman? Who are you to say he doesn't have that potential? In juniors he was absolutely one of the most dynamic defensemen around. Just because he's had a lackluster year or two doesn't mean the potential has disappeared. Players don't "regress" at 23. Maybe they haven't improved enough in key areas, but if those improvements can be made in a player with that potential, you'll see a sudden and drastic jump in results on the ice. We've seen enough examples of this in recent years, I don't know why you'd doubt it; sure he might not work out, but probably has the highest upside of all of Benning's reclamation projects.

 

[iceburg]

So trading away a draft pick for a bust who's in his Draft +6 season is a good idea? Seriously. Is that where the level of intelligence has fallen to? A few years ago we were arguing different analytical comparison and now we've devolved to "hurr trading away a 4th round pick on a rebuilding team for a bust is a good move." My God.

It's the logic thread that I think is flawed:
1. Benning is not a good GM and can never make a good move
2. Ideally draft picks should be retained on rebuilding teams
3. Therefore, any asset Benning acquires for a pick must be a bust.

I don't think anyone (or few) is arguing 2.
Point 1, when taken to the extreme, leads to the conclusion: 1+2=3. This conclusion, that the incoming asset is always bad or a bust, is necessary to justify point 1 and, in the process, ignore any past positives or future upside of the asset.
If this isn't what you're saying, fine. But it sure sounds like it.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Trade was meh but I want to see him play now, maybe the change of scenery will do something.....

 

[Mudshark50]

I bet Jim Rutherford loves it when Benning phones. He's dumped his sh


It's not that we don't know that we could have had these players on waivers it's that the teams had come to a point where they were out of options. Granlund was done in Calgary. They were finished with him. Pittburgh was done with Pouliot. Both players were waiver eligible so the teams had no options other than take whatever was offered or move the players.

Shinkaruk was one of the Canucks better prospects when he was moved. While he did not pan out, trading him for a player that the team was finished with and out of options on was foolish. Same with Pouliot. Had it been Pedan only, that would have been fine, but the 4th round pick is foolish.

Based on the result, whoever thought this was foolish at the time didn't have a clue h0w to evaluate talent. Which makes your analysis even more asinine.

 

[CanaFan]

Because the player has potential to develop into a top-4 PPQB defenseman? Who are you to say he doesn't have that potential? In juniors he was absolutely one of the most dynamic defensemen around. Just because he's had a lackluster year or two doesn't mean the potential has disappeared. Players don't "regress" at 23. Maybe they haven't improved enough in key areas, but if those improvements can be made in a player with that potential, you'll see a sudden and drastic jump in results on the ice. We've seen enough examples of this in recent years, I don't know why you'd doubt it; sure he might not work out, but probably has the highest upside of all of Benning's reclamation projects.

Then why is Pittsburgh tossing him away for a 4th?

If all you say is true, then the back-to-back cup champs are just tossing away a budding top 4 D PPQB for peanuts. Are they just unaware of this?

 

[Fatass]

Then why is Pittsburgh tossing him away for a 4th?

If all you say is true, then the back-to-back cup champs are just tossing away a budding top 4 D PPQB for peanuts. Are they just unaware of this?

Maybe the Pens are in win now mode, and don’t want to take a roster spot to develop him? They knew putting him on waivers was basically giving him away, so the got some assets (Pedan and a pick) for him instead of nothing. We can afford to develop him on the big club, because we are (I hope) rebuilding, and young players, who are better than the AHL, can develop on our big club.

 

[CanaFan]

Maybe the Pens are in win now mode, and don’t want to take a roster spot to develop him? They knew putting him on waivers was basically giving him away, so the got some assets (Pedan and a pick) for him instead of nothing. We can afford to develop him on the big club, because we are (I hope) rebuilding, and young players, who are better than the AHL, can develop on our big club.

Right but if he’s as good as the poster above said - which sounded like he was just about an imminent top 4 Dman - wouldn’t Pittsburgh ask for more than scraps for him? Or keep him, even though they are in “win now” mode?

I mean, if he’s a reclamation project that has a slim chance to work out then that makes sense but if he’s still a good bet to be a top 4 D and PPQB as the poster said, no it doesn’t really make sense.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yet we have need to toss away a draft pick for a crappy defenseman who's not an NHL calibre player?

So you've labelled Markus Granlund as 'trash',and Puoliot as a 'crappy defenseman'....Those kind of rash statements could make you look pretty foolish at the end of the day.

 

[Hit the post]

So you've labelled Markus Granlund as 'trash',and Puoliot as a 'crappy defenseman'....Those kind of rash statements could make you look pretty foolish at the end of the day.

Any worse than a NHL GM thinking Yannick Webber is a top 4 D & plans to start the reason with him as such?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Any worse than a NHL GM thinking Yannick Webber is a top 4 D & plans to start the reason with him as such?

What has that got to do with anything I just said??

 

[Fatass]

Right but if he’s as good as the poster above said - which sounded like he was just about an imminent top 4 Dman - wouldn’t Pittsburgh ask for more than scraps for him? Or keep him, even though they are in “win now” mode?

I mean, if he’s a reclamation project that has a slim chance to work out then that makes sense but if he’s still a good bet to be a top 4 D and PPQB as the poster said, no it doesn’t really make sense.

I heard Pierre McGuire say that Pouliot was out of shape and overweiaght. He added the Derrick needed to get his priorities straights, and lose weight and commit to being NHL fit. Maybe other teams were in on the trade talks too, but the Pens like Pedan?

 

[Hit the post]

What has that got to do with anything I just said??

Benning is employed as a NHL GM.

He looked pretty foolish in thinking Yannic Weber was a top 4 D.

How does that compare to an armchair quarterback (ie., everyone on this board) making a mistaken evaluation of a player?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning is employed as a NHL GM.

He looked pretty foolish in thinking Yannic Weber was a top 4 D.

How does that compare to an armchair quarterback (ie., everyone on this board) making a mistaken evaluation of a player?

This is the Pouliot thread..not the Dim Jim one.

 

[CanaFan]

I heard Pierre McGuire say that Pouliot was out of shape and overweiaght. He added the Derrick needed to get his priorities straights, and lose weight and commit to being NHL fit. Maybe other teams were in on the trade talks too, but the Pens like Pedan?

Well Pedan is a 24 year old AHL Dman and not helping Pittsburgh “win now” so if he was the best offer they got it still doesn’t say much about Pouliot’s value.

I can accept that maybe he was an ok value for Pedan and the 4th - it’s not the kind of trade I want to see us pursuing but whatever - but this notion that Pouliot is just a scenery change away from breaking out assumes incompetence on Pittsburgh’s end. Which is always possible I guess, but just not nearly as likely as some seem to be thinking.

 

[Hit the post]

This is the Pouliot thread..not the Dim Jim one.

LOL - and like the your post to which I replied to had anything to do with Pouliot.

 

[docbenton]

Well Pedan is a 24 year old AHL Dman and not helping Pittsburgh “win now” so if he was the best offer they got it still doesn’t say much about Pouliot’s value.

I can accept that maybe he was an ok value for Pedan and the 4th - it’s not the kind of trade I want to see us pursuing but whatever - but this notion that Pouliot is just a scenery change away from breaking out assumes incompetence on Pittsburgh’s end. Which is always possible I guess, but just not nearly as likely as some seem to be thinking.

Never said he was just a scenery change away from breaking out, clearly there are some improvements that need to made. What I'm saying is that if he can make them he can still be an elite player, because of the underlying talent. And with Pouliot the deficiencies are more subtle than with most projects - needs to play with more pace, and get his confidence with the puck back.

 

[Pump n Dump]

Then why is Pittsburgh tossing him away for a 4th?

If all you say is true, then the back-to-back cup champs are just tossing away a budding top 4 D PPQB for peanuts. Are they just unaware of this?

 

[CanaFan]

Never said he was just a scenery change away from breaking out, clearly there are some improvements that need to made. What I'm saying is that if he can make them he can still be an elite player, because of the underlying talent. And with Pouliot the deficiencies are more subtle than with most projects - needs to play with more pace, and get his confidence with the puck back.

If it was that simple he wouldn’t have been tossed away for scraps. I’m not saying Pittsburgh is infallible but they’ve had this player for years, have seen him up close, and had a strong motivation to see him succeed. Everyone who agrees Benning looked at Shinkaruk and decided his talent wasn’t going to translate should consider Pittsburgh is in the exact same situation, except Pouliot is even older and has blown even more chances.

It’s not nearly as simple as I think you’re suggesting.

 

[biturbo19]

Right but if he’s as good as the poster above said - which sounded like he was just about an imminent top 4 Dman - wouldn’t Pittsburgh ask for more than scraps for him? Or keep him, even though they are in “win now” mode?

I mean, if he’s a reclamation project that has a slim chance to work out then that makes sense but if he’s still a good bet to be a top 4 D and PPQB as the poster said, no it doesn’t really make sense.

The thing is, Pittsburgh already invested in their own "fast forward the clock" reclamation project in an identical offensive defenceman mold with Justin Schultz. They're in an obvious "win now" mode, and don't really have the time to tinker around with a struggling young prospect with upside like Pouliot in their lineup often enough to really work out. They went with an older guy and it's worked out well for them. But there's only room for so many of that sort of player in a contending lineup - and they have their own reclamation project who is right now, an actually realized version of that player. They don't need Pouliot, and they don't have room for him or a situation to let him take his lumps and (hopefully?) develop.

He's certainly not a sure bet to become a quality Top-4D and PPQB. He's not even an entirely safe bet to be a Top-6 NHL defenceman. But he certainly does still have that level of potential talent, and the cost is low. We're a rebuilding team. We can afford to tinker around with these sort of projects. Our ability to let a guy flounder around trying to find footing is an asset that we as a rebuilding team with low expectations have available. They're now using it on a guy with upside.

 

[CanaFan]

The thing is, Pittsburgh already invested in their own "fast forward the clock" reclamation project in an identical offensive defenceman mold with Justin Schultz. They're in an obvious "win now" mode, and don't really have the time to tinker around with a struggling young prospect with upside like Pouliot in their lineup often enough to really work out. They went with an older guy and it's worked out well for them. But there's only room for so many of that sort of player in a contending lineup - and they have their own reclamation project who is right now, an actually realized version of that player. They don't need Pouliot, and they don't have room for him or a situation to let him take his lumps and (hopefully?) develop.

He's certainly not a sure bet to become a quality Top-4D and PPQB. He's not even an entirely safe bet to be a Top-6 NHL defenceman. But he certainly does still have that level of potential talent, and the cost is low. We're a rebuilding team. We can afford to tinker around with these sort of projects. Our ability to let a guy flounder around trying to find footing is an asset that we as a rebuilding team with low expectations have available. They're now using it on a guy with upside.

Ya I get why Pittsburgh might want to move him. What I don’t get is the massively low return for a guy being described as positively as some in this thread are. IMO he’s much more of a project than some are describing him as, which would align with their willingness to accept an AHLer and a 4th, neither of which are important pieces for a team trying to “win now”.

 

[Melvin]

Wasn't he supposed to be part of the failed Kesler trade to Pittsburgh?

 

[member 290103]

That's not the point. The point is a rebuilding team should be stockpiling draft picks, not wasting them on another team's draft bust.

Pouliot will be 24 in a couple months. He's in his Draft +6 season and still hasn't been good enough to crack an NHL roster. He also regressed in the AHL last year. He's not someone a team in our position should be wasting assets on.

Y2K is exactly right here. Pouliot is bust. Had he been available for Pedan straight up, that'd be one thing, but Benning needs to stop moving picks for mediocre or worse roster players. It's foolish. Year after year Benning goes into the draft looking to obtain picks. That's the worst time to do this - no one is moving picks at the draft. He bleeds them all year long and says he'll recoup them later, but he never does.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

The worst thing about it is that there's no spot for him in the starting lineup. We've traded a pick in October for a 7-8 defenseman.

Where does he fit in the lineup? Who does he bump? Ben Hutton? Del Zotto? It looks like we traded a pick for an upgrade on Weircioch which makes no sense at all.

 

[Canucks1096]

Any worse than a NHL GM thinking Yannick Webber is a top 4 D & plans to start the reason with him as such?

When did Benning say Weber was a top 4 defensemen and start the season with him there. 2015 off-season he was an ufa. Benning didn't offer him top 4 defensemen money. When 2015/2016 he started the season as a healthy scratch behind Tanev Edler Hamhuis Hutton Sbisa Bartkowski. 2014/2015 Weber did play some stretch as the top 4 defensemen with Hamhuis but doesn't mean Benning think He is a top 4 defensemen. He played there but that mainly to balance the defense pairing. You are not going to have Weber and Sbisa as a pairing. Also 2014/2015 season Weber started the season as a healthy scratch as well.

Benning signed his to 2 different ufa contracts. Both time it wasn't top 4 defensmen money which proves that he never thought of him as a top 4 defensemen.

 

[Canucks1096]

The worst thing about it is that there's no spot for him in the starting lineup. We've traded a pick in October for a 7-8 defenseman.

Where does he fit in the lineup? Who does he bump? Ben Hutton? Del Zotto? It looks like we traded a pick for an upgrade on Weircioch which makes no sense at all.

Injuries. There always lots of injuries. When does the Canucks defensemen stay healthy. Almost never. Last season there was over 100 games missed.