Dennis "Chili Dog" Cholowski

[Claypool]

Only watch if you don't mind losing 6 minutes of your life.

Click to read more...

 

[Leronziia]

A math nerd? I like the kid.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

A math nerd? I like the kid.

Hate him already he's a bust. Trade him while you can

 

[opivy]

Worst audio of all time. It makes sense with the beats headphones they're wearing.

 

[Dotter]

Will he be better PMD than Chychrun someday?

 

[Leronziia]

One would hope!

 

[MTU hockey]

Will he be better PMD than Chychrun someday?

We'll find out in the next 4 years, hopefully

 

[jkutswings]

We'll find out in the next 4 years, hopefully

To really see what a defenseman can do takes several years in the NHL. I'd be shocked if Cholo was regularly in the lineup in the next two years, let alone on track to answer this question within the time frame of four years.

Unless things radically change from "The Red Wings Way", it's more like, brief call-ups in 2 years, longer stretches in 3 years, and a regular in four years - which means we won't know for sure what his ceiling is for another 5-7 years.

 

[burrythebiscuit*]

Trade him. I just don't have a good feeling about him at all

 

[Leronziia]

He has more points than Fabbro.

Nashville should trade him too.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

He has more points than Fabbro.

Nashville should trade him too.

And yet one made the WJC team, but the other wasn't even invited to camp. I don't think that was because they forgot about Cholo.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And yet one made the WJC team, but the other wasn't even invited to camp. I don't think that was because they forgot about Cholo.

Hicketts made two world juniorchampionship teams and Quincey played world juniors. What exactly does it mean, the played over guys that had better hockey careers or will have more than likely.

Nothing I have read or seen in terms of the limited viewings of Cholo should have people unexcited. The kid is a phenomenal skater and passer. He is still growing and looks like the kind of project we should be excited about.

 

[Wood Stick]

Hicketts made two world juniorchampionship teams and Quincey played world juniors. What exactly does it mean, the played over guys that had better hockey careers or will have more than likely.

Nothing I have read or seen in terms of the limited viewings of Cholo should have people unexcited. The kid is a phenomenal skater and passer. He is still growing and looks like the kind of project we should be excited about.

This. The last three years Red Wings management has landed us Anthony Mantha, Dylan Larkin and Evgeni Svechnekov. I trust Detroit's scouting a lot. With everything I heard about Dennis at the time of his draft, the fact that he was on their radar over Jakub was very, very interesting. A great skater. Everything I've heard kind of reminds me of Ryan McDonagh.

I know you've always been down on Joe Hicketts, but watching him this year at 20, I think he's NHL bound.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This. The last three years Red Wings management has landed us Anthony Mantha, Dylan Larkin and Evgeni Svechnekov. I trust Detroit's scouting a lot. With everything I heard about Dennis at the time of his draft, the fact that he was on their radar over Jakub was very, very interesting. A great skater. Everything I've heard kind of reminds me of Ryan McDonagh.

I know you've always been down on Joe Hicketts, but watching him this year at 20, I think he's NHL bound.

I think he will get a shot. But at the ultimate skill level his deficiencies will be exposed in my opinion. I have said often that I think he will be an excellent AHL or European player. I think where he gets exposed is with the guys with the talent and body to take advantage of him.

We will see, I am rooting for him. I don't think anybody is ever going to out-compete Joe Hicketts. Really there is a lot that is admirable about his game, but I have a ton of trouble projecting him up. He isn't a dynamic enough skater for just how small he is.

The thing I like about Cholo the most is even with a pretty big growth spurt over the last year and change he has such a smooth skating style. Plays with his head up seemingly all the time too which is something I love seeing out of a D-man at any level.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Nothing I have read or seen in terms of the limited viewings of Cholo should have people unexcited. The kid is a phenomenal skater and passer. He is still growing and looks like the kind of project we should be excited about.

My impression is that nearly everyone who is down on the pick knows almost nothing about the kid. Now it's certainly possible that he will turn out to be a bad pick, but it seems people are judging too much based on who has more hype as a 17-18 year old. Duncan Keith didn't play in the WJC, what a bust.

You trust it more than I do.

Mantha has a shot to be a 1st line winger, but I don't know that Larkin gets past a 2C, and Svech is a long way off yet.

Good to very good players, but nobody is a lock to be part of the next core (yet), and certainly nothing thus far to speak of on defense. I'd give it, 'Trending Upwards' for the scouting staff, but still very much, 'Wait and See'.

But I'm hoping they can do even greater things with a very high pick.

Wings almost never have a complete 'miss' in the first 2 rounds. Worst case they end up with is borderline players like Frk/Ferraro or disappointing NHLers like Sheahan/Smith/Jurco. We have very good scouting. You shouldn't mistake an inability to pick up superstars in the late rounds with bad scouting. Huge amount of luck in having a player come from nowhere and really put it all together. But our scouts know how to identify NHL caliber talent. That will pay off sooner or later. We are just currently paying for our lack of 1st and 2nd round picks in the 00s.

 

[jkutswings]

This. The last three years Red Wings management has landed us Anthony Mantha, Dylan Larkin and Evgeni Svechnekov. I trust Detroit's scouting a lot.

You trust it more than I do.

Mantha has a shot to be a 1st line winger, but I don't know that Larkin gets past a 2C, and Svech is a long way off yet.

Good to very good players, but nobody is a lock to be part of the next core (yet), and certainly nothing thus far to speak of on defense. I'd give it, 'Trending Upwards' for the scouting staff, but still very much, 'Wait and See'.

But I'm hoping they can do even greater things with a very high pick.

 

[Frk It]

This. The last three years Red Wings management has landed us Anthony Mantha, Dylan Larkin and Evgeni Svechnekov. I trust Detroit's scouting a lot. With everything I heard about Dennis at the time of his draft, the fact that he was on their radar over Jakub was very, very interesting. A great skater. Everything I've heard kind of reminds me of Ryan McDonagh.

I know you've always been down on Joe Hicketts, but watching him this year at 20, I think he's NHL bound.

You should trust our judgement in drafting forwards. It's been proven many times. And you should be skeptical of our judgement in drafting defenseman until one materializes in the NHL in a meaningful way.

Not sure why you're lumping it all together. It's been two very different stories for us and we should know (more than anyone) by now being good at one doesn't guarantee the other necessarily.

Wright's done a good job so far, but even looking back at his CBJ days I don't see an example of him hitting big on a defenseman yet. Even the guy they took with a top 5 pick (Ryan Murray) hasn't really done a lot in the NHL compared to where he was taken.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You should trust our judgement in drafting forwards. It's been proven many times. And you should be skeptical of our judgement in drafting defenseman until one materializes in the NHL in a meaningful way.

Yes and no. We're really mostly paying for not having enough 1st and 2nd round picks in the 00s. The actual missed opportunities for us in terms of drafting impact d-men have been very few. I mean you can look at Shea Weber as a late pick.. but back then we were running the most stacked team in the league and made our first draft pick in the 3rd, and we actually hit on an NHL d-man in Quincey. PK Subban was 2nd round 2007, we didn't have a 2nd round pick. Holland would have been fired on the spot if he picked PK in the 1st, and holding onto every pick isn't an option when it's cup-or-bust. Klingberg is one of those one-in-a-million late round guys. A 5th rounder, in a year when we didn't have a 5th and our 4th was Teemu Pulkkinen who still has to be seen as a good draft pick for his position. Maatta was late 1st round in a year when we didn't have a 1st. You can fault Holland, but not the drafting. And so on. Finding those gems requires picks, and it requires a ton of luck. But it also requires good scouting, which we have. Alex Edler was stolen from us basically. Again you can fault Holland for not trading up, but he had no reason to think the guy would be taken only a few picks ahead of them in the 3rd round, and we used that pick on Franzen instead which was hugely impactful in our 08 cup, so again our scouts made it work. If we weren't going for the cup, we likely would have had a 1st and 2nd and picked Edler before Vanouver. Cost of competing.

The worst examples of our D drafting are Kindl and Smith. But Smith is a late, late 1st and it's fine to "only" get an NHLer out of that. Kindl was worse, but it's 2005. A long time ago, and a rare example of a high pick spent on a d-man that just didn't turn out.

Since 2011 we have Ouellet, Sproul and Marchenko. Solid picks. Cholowski and Hronek are promising for sure. No reason to think they won't turn into NHLers based on our 1st and 2nd round draft history. Big test is Cholowski. We need him to be better than Smith and Kindl. And I think he can be. Overall we haven't drafted as badly on the D side as people want to make it seem.

 

[Wood Stick]

I think he will get a shot. But at the ultimate skill level his deficiencies will be exposed in my opinion. I have said often that I think he will be an excellent AHL or European player. I think where he gets exposed is with the guys with the talent and body to take advantage of him.

We will see, I am rooting for him. I don't think anybody is ever going to out-compete Joe Hicketts. Really there is a lot that is admirable about his game, but I have a ton of trouble projecting him up. He isn't a dynamic enough skater for just how small he is.

The thing I like about Cholo the most is even with a pretty big growth spurt over the last year and change he has such a smooth skating style. Plays with his head up seemingly all the time too which is something I love seeing out of a D-man at any level.

Joe Hicketts' progression has shown great linear improvements. If you watched his skating prior to being drafted to now, that's a major step. I think he becomes a third pairing defenseman. Not sure if it's here or not, honestly, going to predict right now that it is. His transition to the AHL has actually been fairly well.

I'm not sure what it is with this kid. He shouldn't have made Team Canada. He probably shouldn't be a regular in the AHL at 20. He shouldn't be putting up points in the AHL right now. Not sure what it is, but I'm a believer.

You trust it more than I do.

Mantha has a shot to be a 1st line winger, but I don't know that Larkin gets past a 2C, and Svech is a long way off yet.

Good to very good players, but nobody is a lock to be part of the next core (yet), and certainly nothing thus far to speak of on defense. I'd give it, 'Trending Upwards' for the scouting staff, but still very much, 'Wait and See'.

But I'm hoping they can do even greater things with a very high pick.

Anthony Mantha and Evgeni Svechnikov had late birthdays, started in the AHL at 19 and came from the QMJHL. Mantha shattered his leg too. Anthony Mantha is a full-time player in his third year and has shown massive improvement as well. He's one of the biggest forwards in the NHL, specifically in the top six. Possibly the most skilled. A 6'5 30-30 player at 20 is a damn good pick.

Not sure why you're so low on Dylan Larkin. I predicted he'd be around 5 points from where his numbers were last year. Players know who he is now, they know his speed, and most players struggle their second year IMO. You're known now. At 20 years old, his second pro season he's still on pace for 25 goals. He needs to get stronger and become a better passer. He's shown his defensive play in International tournaments, and offense in Detroit, but he needs to do both. I think he can. He's ****ing 20. I'm going to say average first line C.

Svech becomes a complimentary top six piece IMO. He's fairly mean. He's big. He has a terrific shot. He came to a stacked Grand Rapids team where you earn your time, and as his role has grown with injuries and call-ups, he's produced. He had a terrific December. Again, solid pick IMO.

You should trust our judgement in drafting forwards. It's been proven many times. And you should be skeptical of our judgement in drafting defenseman until one materializes in the NHL in a meaningful way.

Not sure why you're lumping it all together. It's been two very different stories for us and we should know (more than anyone) by now being good at one doesn't guarantee the other necessarily.

Wright's done a good job so far, but even looking back at his CBJ days I don't see an example of him hitting big on a defenseman yet. Even the guy they took with a top 5 pick (Ryan Murray) hasn't really done a lot in the NHL compared to where he was taken.

We haven't drafted a defenseman in the first round since Brendan Smith. That was nearly 10 years ago. Detroit had some rough drafts in the mid 2000s specifically in the first couple of rounds. Since 2009 it's been pretty solid. Guys like Sheahan were picked in weak drafts. He's also having a down year so it's easier to bash it right now. Snagged a couple NHL D in rounds 2-7 in the last 5 which include XO, Sproul, Marchy and probably Jensen. Team needed forwards so that seemed to have been the plan.

Last two drafts we've seen Vili Saajarvvi selected, Filip Hronek, and Dennis Cholowski. All of them have sweet styles and are potential top four guys. With recent draft success, I again trust Wright and company with our first.

Dude, Ryan Murray was drafted in a terrible, terrible draft. He was also a shoe in for a top three pick. It was the right pick in hindsight. He's a defensive D so his numbers won't blow you away. Add in the injuries as well. After missing an entire year he put up 25 points last year. That draft did produce some solid defenseman though.

 

[Dotter]

Wright's done a good job so far, but even looking back at his CBJ days I don't see an example of him hitting big on a defenseman yet. Even the guy they took with a top 5 pick (Ryan Murray) hasn't really done a lot in the NHL compared to where he was taken.

Is Ryan Murray that bad of of top pick in that draft, though? He just turned 23 and is almost a year younger than Ryan Sproul.

 

[Wood Stick]

Is Ryan Murray that bad of of top pick in that draft, though? He just turned 23 and is almost a year younger than Ryan Sproul.

He doesn't have a flashy style. He's a stay at home D at this level. The 2012 draft was weak, but defensively produced some pretty names like Morgan Reilly, Hampus Lindholm, Olli Maatta, and Jacob Trouba.

 

[jkutswings]

But there are plenty of teams that find good defensemen outside of the first round. Should a 1st yield an NHL player? Yes. But over the course of a decade, to not have found a single top-4 guy in ANY round? C'mon.

Again, I'm hopeful they can turn the corner on this, but the last several years is more than just not having early picks. It's not using enough picks in any round on D, and not hitting on anything that they do use on D.

 

[Frk It]

Last two drafts we've seen Vili Saajarvvi selected, Filip Hronek, and Dennis Cholowski. All of them have sweet styles and are potential top four guys. With recent draft success, I again trust Wright and company with our first.

I like the thought process behind some of these picks (Hronek and Saarijarvi), but I need to see one materialize before I trust it. If you do, that's fine. But for me I need to see it. Kronwall was a long, long time ago.

Dude, Ryan Murray was drafted in a terrible, terrible draft. He was also a shoe in for a top three pick. It was the right pick in hindsight. He's a defensive D so his numbers won't blow you away. Add in the injuries as well. After missing an entire year he put up 25 points last year. That draft did produce some solid defenseman though.

As a scout/org your job isn't to go off the consensus rankings and live with the outcome. It's to have your own rankings, and your rankings to be right. Winnipeg "reached hard" on Scheifele, and look how much better he is than players taken after him. Several guys taken after Murray look better than him. And if you can't get an impact defenseman player with a top 5, again, why are we trusting he's going to do it here when he's here with worst draft position when it's not even on his track record? Because Larkin?

I mean you're allowed to, again I just don't see backing or the justification for it right now.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But there are plenty of teams that find good defensemen outside of the first round. Should a 1st yield an NHL player? Yes. But over the course of a decade, to not have found a single top-4 guy in ANY round? C'mon.

Again, I'm hopeful they can turn the corner on this, but the last several years is more than just not having early picks. It's not using enough picks in any round on D, and not hitting on anything that they do use on D.

There are a very limited number of top-pairing d-men taken outside of the 1st round in the last 15 years. And an almost as limited number of top 4 d-men taken outside of the first 2 rounds. It's not at all strange that the team with the worst 1st round draft position from the early 90s to 2010, and the least amount of total draft picks, would be one of the teams that has struggled to find top 4 d-men.

I'm trying to bring some nuance to the argument that we suck at drafting d-men. We didn't exactly draft McIlrath over Fowler.
When we took Kindl, the allmighty Predators took an even worse guy right before us. And the best guy taken after was Niskanen 10 picks later, very much a reach for us. Best guy taken after Smith was Subban, again it would have been a huge reach to take a 2nd round talent in the 1st round instead of Smith who looked like a great prospects for years. A lot of the great late round guys weren't available at all to us. Keith, Weber, Edler, all taken before we made our first selection in those drafts. You can say we didn't use enough picks on D, but we don't really need more d-men. And no amount of late round picks used on d-men over the years can conjure up talent where there was none available.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

There are a very limited number of top-pairing d-men taken outside of the 1st round in the last 15 years. And an almost as limited number of top 4 d-men taken outside of the first 2 rounds. It's not at all strange that the team with the worst 1st round draft position from the early 90s to 2010, and the least amount of total draft picks, would be one of the teams that has struggled to find top 4 d-men.

I'm trying to bring some nuance to the argument that we suck at drafting d-men. We didn't exactly draft McIlrath over Fowler.
When we took Kindl, the allmighty Predators took an even worse guy right before us. And the best guy taken after was Niskanen 10 picks later, very much a reach for us. Best guy taken after Smith was Subban, again it would have been a huge reach to take a 2nd round talent in the 1st round instead of Smith who looked like a great prospects for years. A lot of the great late round guys weren't available at all to us. Keith, Weber, Edler, all taken before we made our first selection in those drafts. You can say we didn't use enough picks on D, but we don't really need more d-men. And no amount of late round picks used on d-men over the years can conjure up talent where there was none available.

I understand that your love affair with Ken Holland runs very, very deep and that there is nothing that Ken Holland could possibly have done differently to alter the current state of this team. The list of top pair and top four defensemen taken outside of the first round, however, extends well beyond Keith, Subban, Weber and Kleinberg.