Dekeyser Files Player-elected Arbitration

[SpookyTsuki]

Just checked Dekeyser's 2-season data. His points/60 at ES is 44th best in the league. Quite same as Ryan Suter has had.

44th rank is a ~2nd defenceman when adding strong defensive play.

He's not a PP defenceman, though.

We should put him back there. #1 powerplay when he's there. And he looks more like a number 2

 

[DanZ]

Dekeyser is not young and is a middling middle pair defenceman who is reasonable with his stick, not overly physical and has zero offensive output. Hes not even a decent number 3. Any team with reasonable defenders would more than likely play Dekeyser as a number 4.

Yeah you dont need to sign that long term.

He's not young? Do you consider 26 to be old? He should be in his prime for the duration of a long term contract is my point, so it's not like we're signing some 32 year old that will be 40 when the contract ends. Dekeyser would be 33-34 at the end of a long term deal, which is right around when players start to decline. We would be locking up DeKeyser's best years.

And zero offensive output? That's just wrong. Like someone else pointed out above, his point production is fairly in line with a second pairing defenseman, and he has his strong defensive game to go along with it. You don't need to be physical to be elite defensively. Did you even watch Lidstrom play? Not that I'm comparing the two... DeKeyser is a solid #3 going forward, he was just being forced into a top pairing role last season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And zero offensive output? That's just wrong. Like someone else pointed out above, his point production is fairly in line with a second pairing defenseman

Just to put things into context... Dekeyser had a bad year pretty much, took a big hit on his assist numbers (reasonable to think this was due to the team as a whole struggling to score). Still, these are some guys that he had more even-strength points than this season:

Sami Vatanen
Kevin Shattenkirk
Seth Jones
Zach Bogosian
Olli Maatta
Adam Larsson
Matt Niskanen
Hanifin
Trouba
Dumba
Hampus Lindholm
Cam Fowler

And this was in a bad year for Danny. Look at the season before this and the list grows MUCH bigger with some pretty stellar names behind him.

It's also pretty interesting to look at Even-strength goal numbers. This year, Danny scored more goals on ES than, just to name a few, Shea Weber, Macdonagh, Pietrangelo, Keith, Subban, Suter, Brodie...

And this is a guy with ZERO offensive output?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yeah. Danny d actually produced offensively at least a little. And doesn't have brain farts every game that results in a goal

Ericsson was a product of the wings overhyping him. "The next lidstrom". Or just a top pair dman actually. Because of 1 playoff run. Or series. He never even broke 15 points

who the exactly thought a converted d-man taken dead last in the draft would be the next Lidstrom?

Fans overhyped him because of one playoff run where expectations were low and he was playing a fair amount next to Lidstrom. I highly doubt even the most positive Wings estimation was that Ericsson would fill Nick's shoes. Because it's insane.

As for Dekeyser, he had a down year because he was asked to do more. He's one of if not the Wings most reliable defenseman.

 

[Henkka]

Ericsson next Lidström? Don't remember anything about that hype.

Kronwall, DeKeyser and even Smith has had those comparisons, but not Ericsson.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ericsson next Lidström? Don't remember anything about that hype.

Kronwall, DeKeyser and even Smith has had those comparisons, but not Ericsson.

Guessing this will be the famous Bob McKenzie said he could win a Norris one day thing...

 

[Reddwit]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/l...keyser/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

He is not worth $5M.

RFA year is usually ~1 million cheaper than UFA year.

Could guess:

3.75M for 1st season RFA
then UFA years

4.50M
4.75M
5.00M
5.25M

5 years, 23.25M = 4.65M caphit

Marco Scandella is wuite good contract combarable. He did sign 5-year contract year before, and it has 4M caphit. Contract also has more RFA years, so it will be cheaper. But same age, experience, Ice-Time, production per ice-time, and main role as a defensive guy on those guys.

I'd be happy with that. Also think Scandella is a great comparable, but I'd like to see the Wings go with the full 8 years for Dekeyser. He will effectively spend all of next year as a 26 year old. Take the full 8 years, and you're moving him into his 8th year at 33. You can bring the cap hit down in that 32nd and 33rd year. Hopefully, he's looking at Ericsson floundering and Quincey struggling to find his target price and recognizes that your 30s are anything but smooth sailing for a defenseman that doesn't put up a lot of points.

 

[Flowah]

He is not worth $5M.

His career numbers are better than Jake Allen, Jacob Markstrom, and Fredrick Andersen. Significantly better than Markstrom who got 3.67M or something. Now it's Jim Benning and he's awful but Andersson got 5M and Allen got 4.75M I think?

They are setting Mrazek's price to at *least* 4.5M. Holland might negotiate him down a bit or get him to take a discount but it's not gonna be that much less than that.

This is the new rate for goalies like Mrazek.

 

[Frk It]

His career numbers are better than Jake Allen, Jacob Markstrom, and Fredrick Andersen. Significantly better than Markstrom who got 3.67M or something. Now it's Jim Benning and he's awful but Andersson got 5M and Allen got 4.75M I think?

They are setting Mrazek's price to at *least* 4.5M. Holland might negotiate him down a bit or get him to take a discount but it's not gonna be that much less than that.

This is the new rate for goalies like Mrazek.

This the Dekeyser thread, yo

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Ericsson next Lidström? Don't remember anything about that hype.

Kronwall, DeKeyser and even Smith has had those comparisons, but not Ericsson.

Yeah it's what TZE said I think. He's gonna win a Norris. Either way he would be detroits best defender. #1

 

[odin1981]

Just to put things into context... Dekeyser had a bad year pretty much, took a big hit on his assist numbers (reasonable to think this was due to the team as a whole struggling to score). Still, these are some guys that he had more even-strength points than this season:

Sami Vatanen
Kevin Shattenkirk
Seth Jones
Zach Bogosian
Olli Maatta
Adam Larsson
Matt Niskanen
Hanifin
Trouba
Dumba
Hampus Lindholm
Cam Fowler

And this was in a bad year for Danny. Look at the season before this and the list grows MUCH bigger with some pretty stellar names behind him.

It's also pretty interesting to look at Even-strength goal numbers. This year, Danny scored more goals on ES than, just to name a few, Shea Weber, Macdonagh, Pietrangelo, Keith, Subban, Suter, Brodie...

And this is a guy with ZERO offensive output?

I really like how you bring this up. Peak/prime DDK scores 40+ 2-3 times I believe.

 

[obey86]

Just to put things into context... Dekeyser had a bad year pretty much, took a big hit on his assist numbers (reasonable to think this was due to the team as a whole struggling to score). Still, these are some guys that he had more even-strength points than this season:

Sami Vatanen
Kevin Shattenkirk
Seth Jones
Zach Bogosian
Olli Maatta
Adam Larsson
Matt Niskanen
Hanifin
Trouba
Dumba
Hampus Lindholm
Cam Fowler

And this was in a bad year for Danny. Look at the season before this and the list grows MUCH bigger with some pretty stellar names behind him.

It's also pretty interesting to look at Even-strength goal numbers. This year, Danny scored more goals on ES than, just to name a few, Shea Weber, Macdonagh, Pietrangelo, Keith, Subban, Suter, Brodie...

And this is a guy with ZERO offensive output?

It's actually funny that so many of those guys are seen as the answer by all of us to the Wings defenseman problems but aren't even outproducing Dekeyser at even strength, despite some of those players being on much better teams.

 

[Heaton]

It's actually funny that so many of those guys are seen as the answer by all of us to the Wings defenseman problems but aren't even outproducing Dekeyser at even strength, despite some of those players being on much better teams.

If we had 3 DeKeyser's we wouldn't be looking to trade for any of those guys.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Just to put things into context... Dekeyser had a bad year pretty much, took a big hit on his assist numbers (reasonable to think this was due to the team as a whole struggling to score). Still, these are some guys that he had more even-strength points than this season:

Sami Vatanen
Kevin Shattenkirk
Seth Jones
Zach Bogosian
Olli Maatta
Adam Larsson
Matt Niskanen
Hanifin
Trouba
Dumba
Hampus Lindholm
Cam Fowler

And this was in a bad year for Danny. Look at the season before this and the list grows MUCH bigger with some pretty stellar names behind him.

It's also pretty interesting to look at Even-strength goal numbers. This year, Danny scored more goals on ES than, just to name a few, Shea Weber, Macdonagh, Pietrangelo, Keith, Subban, Suter, Brodie...

And this is a guy with ZERO offensive output?

roman polak had more points 5on5 (16 vs 15). same with alzner. kevan miller had 2 points more.

he was tied with luke schenn. and ron hainsey. and jonathan ericsson. marc staal.


all guys with little to no offensive output. dmen point production ES can be pretty random (in the middle tier, not so much with top end guys).

 

[Henkka]

It's actually funny that so many of those guys are seen as the answer by all of us to the Wings defenseman problems but aren't even outproducing Dekeyser at even strength, despite some of those players being on much better teams.

Does it have to be count in points? Imo, it is very misleading. Some defenceman could be good puck-moving defencemen outside of point-scoring data.

Giving a good 1st pass out from the Def.Zone or skating ability to easy Off.Zone entry are skills which will turn quite randomly to point-scoring data. Usually that 1st pass is a 3rd-4th assist before goal will happen. No points for Dman who started the transition. Or, some defencemen can get easy non-meaningful second assist for forward at own zone, who thereafter creates the goals by himself.

These are, imo, important hidden stats on the game I try to promote up with my own data-collecting system. Another important play is net-front screening for forwards, which usually is very important play, but no points are given about it.

Mostly, Defenceman points/assists will come from the power-play and/or from shots. Shots are tipped in, or after a shot happens a rebound and somebody scores.

With 5-year data you can proably find the best guys, but one season example with some 15 points from shut-down position against best opposite players is nothing to speculate of. It's just random.

 

[Frk It]

It's actually funny that so many of those guys are seen as the answer by all of us to the Wings defenseman problems but aren't even outproducing Dekeyser at even strength, despite some of those players being on much better teams.

The difference between Dekeyser and top pairing or #1 defenseman is the skill set to play and produce on the PP.

Dekeyser doesn't have it, most guys on that list you quoted do.

 

[obey86]

Does it have to be count in points? Imo, it is very misleading. Some defenceman could be good puck-moving defencemen outside of point-scoring data.

Giving a good 1st pass out from the Def.Zone or skating ability to easy Off.Zone entry are skills which will turn quite randomly to point-scoring data. Usually that 1st pass is a 3rd-4th assist before goal will happen. No points for Dman who started the transition. Or, some defencemen can get easy non-meaningful second assist for forward at own zone, who thereafter creates the goals by himself.

These are, imo, important hidden stats on the game I try to promote up with my own data-collecting system. Another important play is net-front screening for forwards, which usually is very important play, but no points are given about it.

Mostly, Defenceman points/assists will come from the power-play and/or from shots. Shots are tipped in, or after a shot happens a rebound and somebody scores.

With 5-year data you can proably find the best guys, but one season example with some 15 points from shut-down position against best opposite players is nothing to speculate of. It's just random.

No it doesn't. But my point is that if those guys were on the Red Wings putting up as many points Jonathan Ericsson at even strength we probably would be wanting to get rid of them. Mike Green and Brendan Smith both create a lot of offensive opportunities and are able to skate back and retrieve pucks, and skate the puck out of their zone with ease and most people on this message board are ready to run them both out of town because they don't have 45+ points....overlooking the very things that you say make many other defensemen valuable, even without high point totals.

 

[obey86]

The difference between Dekeyser and top pairing or #1 defenseman is the skill set to play and produce on the PP.

Dekeyser doesn't have it, most guys on that list you quoted do.

Meh, even Kyle Quincey can put up ~40 points if given power play time, like he did in LA.

Do I think DDK would be a great PP QB? No. But put him on the PP full time and he's probably near or above 40 points on a regular basis and we all think of him completely differently as a player. Points completely skew our perceptions of players and because Blashill hasn't done the best job of putting the correct people in the correct situations (IMO) we (as a group) have overly negative or overly positive views of certain players that are unwarranted IMO due to their point totals.

 

[Frk It]

Meh, even Kyle Quincey can put up ~40 points if given power play time, like he did in LA.

Do I think DDK would be a great PP QB? No. But put him on the PP full time and he's probably near or above 40 points on a regular basis and we all think of him completely differently as a player.

Yup on a terrible team Quincey is a #1 D putting getting those kind of minutes.

And unless we aspire to be like LA back then, we will get someone better than Dekeyser to give that opportunity to.

 

[obey86]

Yup on a terrible team Quincey is a #1 D putting getting those kind of minutes.

And unless we aspire to be like LA back then, we will get someone better than Dekeyser to give that opportunity to.

And in 08-09 when Quincey got PP time and put up near 40 points, LA had the 14th best PP in the league. So it's not like the PP was terrible because of him or anything. They were average.

This all shows to me that points are often more a matter of opportunity than a matter of ability and point totals determine biases in our minds about certain players.

 

[Frk It]

And in 08-09 when Quincey got PP time and put up near 40 points, LA had the 14th best PP in the league. So it's not like the PP was terrible because of him or anything. They were average.

This all shows to me that points are often more a matter of opportunity than a matter of ability and point totals determine biases in our minds about certain players.

I have no idea what your point is any longer.

We should aspire to have a better defenseman than anything we have on the roster. Can we agree on that?

 

[obey86]

I have no idea what your point is any longer.

We should aspire to have a better defenseman than anything we have on the roster. Can we agree on that?

Obviously. But I feel that some of these "better defensemen" are only much better because they have better point totals due to being given more advantageous situations (earned or not).

 

[Frk It]

Obviously. But I feel that some of these "better defensemen" are only much better because they have better point totals

I try and say this on the main board and get killed so I feel ya.

I also think we *need* a specific type of defenseman more than others. So I'd put added value and precedence on that in talking about who we should get.

 

[SoupGuru]

I think Dekeyser's point totals suffered quite a bit by being the only guy that had a hope of shutting down the other team's top lines. It was easy for a rookie coach to put him out there for all of the defensively important minutes. Which is fine - it's what he excels at. I think he'd produce quite a bit more of given the chance, though. He shows signs. There was a couple of weeks where he scored some nice goals, a couple of game winners, was it? Get him rolling with some confidence and a rhythm and he'll wind up on the score sheet a lot more.

 

[Bench]

DeKeyser will score more when the team actually scores more. Nobody scored last year. It was pretty bad. Alas, he's not the answer to that solution. He needs help. And that's OK. The Wings didn't sign him expecting big offensive production.