Dekeyser Files Player-elected Arbitration

[Winger98]

No it doesn't. But my point is that if those guys were on the Red Wings putting up as many points Jonathan Ericsson at even strength we probably would be wanting to get rid of them. Mike Green and Brendan Smith both create a lot of offensive opportunities and are able to skate back and retrieve pucks, and skate the puck out of their zone with ease and most people on this message board are ready to run them both out of town because they don't have 45+ points....overlooking the very things that you say make many other defensemen valuable, even without high point totals.

It would help if Smith didn't appear to have his head firmly entrenched in his rear for games on end. People are fed up with him for good reason. I have no idea why people dislike Green, though. Haven't noticed it really.

DeKeyser will score more when the team actually scores more. Nobody scored last year. It was pretty bad. Alas, he's not the answer to that solution. He needs help. And that's OK. The Wings didn't sign him expecting big offensive production.

But can they produce much more without a better blueline? If increasing production was key, having 3/5 of a our summer signings be Helm, Miller, and Ott doesn't look like the best move. Signing Hudler, maybe taking a flier on Pirri, would have probably been a better shot at producing more offense up front. Instead, it looks like another year of gutting out 2-1 wins.

With how weak our blueline will likely continue to be there should have been more focus on stocking the forward group with player who control the puck and the play. I think they did well in that regard with Nielsen and possibly Vanek, but we essentially gave up on that happening with the lower half of our lineup with the guys we'll likely be sending out there.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Thats ridiculous, nobody wants to run Green out of town. Green is one of 2 dmen on this team that people actually like.

Smith has a million problems with his game, if he consistently carried the puck out of the zone about 3/4 of those problems would be gone. But he doesn't

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Thats ridiculous, nobody wants to run Green out of town. Green is one of 2 dmen on this team that people actually like.

Smith has a million problems with his game, if he consistently carried the puck out of the zone about 3/4 of those problems would be gone. But he doesn't

The people that don't like green are people that remember one give away. And everytime it happens again they criticize him for it. Just like smith. He was average in the dzone. And he's good in the ozone I don't know why people don't like him

 

[BinCookin]

Green was our best D man last year.

I think by a pretty wide margin too.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Green was our best D man last year.

I think by a pretty wide margin too.

Very wide. The next is Danny d. Which is weird cause they're both pretty much second pair in their careers right now

 

[Classicnamesup]

Very wide. The next is Danny d. Which is weird cause they're both pretty much second pair in their careers right now

That isn't weird at all. We used to have one first pairing dman but he no longer plays like it.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

That isn't weird at all. We used to have one first pairing dman but he no longer plays like it.

No the weird part is they're both second pair dmen. (Maybe green could be a 2b if he had a lidstrom or something). But they're so far apart

 

[Reddwit]

I really like how you bring this up. Peak/prime DDK scores 40+ 2-3 times I believe.

I would be happy to bet that DDK never scores 40 points even once.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I would be happy to bet that DDK never scores 40 points even once.

He would hit 40 points on this team if they didn't also rely on Ericsson. Kronwall. Green and others. Last year was probably his best. Cause I don't know if our dcore will ever be worse

 

[Reddwit]

He would hit 40 points on this team if they didn't also rely on Ericsson. Kronwall. Green and others. Last year was probably his best. Cause I don't know if our dcore will ever be worse

The only scenario under which I think Dekeyser hits 40 points is the league undergoing some almost fundamental change that causes the offense to increase across the board. I think even on a bottom-feeder, Dekeyser isn't given the prime offensive opportunities. I don't buy the Quincey comparison. Quincey was a malleable product when he was waived. He wasn't a locked and loaded commodity then and was readily used on both special teams as a result. If Dekeyser found himself in that position, I don't think he'd be used that way.

I do think Dan has some vision there but it's never apparent enough game-to-game for me to think it's something that comes easy to him. That kills it for him. 40 points is a huge accolade for a defenseman in this league.

 

[PureDust]

Just a random thought I feel if DDK was Right handed he'd get 5.5mil but I think LHD DDK is only 4.5mil

 

[Pavels Dog]

roman polak had more points 5on5 (16 vs 15). same with alzner. kevan miller had 2 points more.

he was tied with luke schenn. and ron hainsey. and jonathan ericsson. marc staal.


all guys with little to no offensive output. dmen point production ES can be pretty random (in the middle tier, not so much with top end guys).

Point production at ES is a bit random and somewhat a team-stat, but my counter to those names would be that Danny had 8 goals this season and has reached 30+ points just last season, something most of those guys either have never done or haven't done in ages. Dekeyser's ES production has been 63rd (only played 65 games), 31st and 53rd in the league over the last 3 years, which supports my argument that he is better at producing offense than he gets credit for. He absolutely does not deserve to be accused of having "zero offense". He puts up more points on even-strength than a lot of guys that are described as amazing PMDs that are also on better teams. Dekeyser could hit 40+ points for sure during his next contract.

The difference between Dekeyser and top pairing or #1 defenseman is the skill set to play and produce on the PP.

Dekeyser doesn't have it, most guys on that list you quoted do.

This is basically it. If Danny put up an extra 10-20 points per year on the PP he would be considered a #1 or at least a good #2. But does his lack of PP ability really make him a worse player than someone like Shattenkirk who this board would die to acquire, a guy that mostly lives off the PP?

 

[Frk It]

This is basically it. If Danny put up an extra 10-20 points per year on the PP he would be considered a #1 or at least a good #2. But does his lack of PP ability really make him a worse player than someone like Shattenkirk who this board would die to acquire, a guy that mostly lives off the PP?

It's an ability that has a ton of value associated with it. Both in how players are valued monetarily, and even in things like Norris voting.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's an ability that has a ton of value associated with it. Both in how players are valued monetarily, and even in things like Norris voting.

Oh sure, and I don't doubt Dekeyser would both get a bigger contract and more Norris votes if he was able to be a PPQB and increase his point totals.

What I'm getting at is that Dekeyser is kinda seen as a #3 by a lot of people. Which, maybe, he would ideally be on a stacked cup contending team. But he's our #1. It's time to realize that. People value a guy like Cam Fowler a lot higher, but Dekeyser played more ES minutes than him and produces more points on ES as well. People value Shattenkirk a lot higher, but Dekeyser plays more on ES and produces more on ES. People value Trouba higher, but Dekeyser plays more on ES and produces more on ES.

And no one can really accuse Dekeyser of having the best support around him, with a partner like Quincey and a mediocre team.

I'm trying to say that Danny seems to be underrated for one major reason: he doesn't play/produce on the PP. Other than that he's arguably closer to being a #1 d-man than most of the guys people want in a trade.

 

[Frk It]

Oh sure, and I don't doubt Dekeyser would both get a bigger contract and more Norris votes if he was able to be a PPQB and increase his point totals.

What I'm getting at is that Dekeyser is kinda seen as a #3 by a lot of people. Which, maybe, he would ideally be on a stacked cup contending team. But he's our #1. It's time to realize that. People value a guy like Cam Fowler a lot higher, but Dekeyser played more ES minutes than him and produces more points on ES as well. People value Shattenkirk a lot higher, but Dekeyser plays more on ES and produces more on ES. People value Trouba higher, but Dekeyser plays more on ES and produces more on ES.

And no one can really accuse Dekeyser of having the best support around him, with a partner like Quincey and a mediocre team.

I'm trying to say that just because Danny seems to be underrated for one major reason: he doesn't play/produce on the PP. Other than that he's arguably closer to being a #1 d-man than most of the guys people want in a trade.

I like Danny for what he is. Only issue is when people try and make him out to be what he isn't.

Regarding "realizing" he is our #1. #1 defenseman don't play less than 1 minute on the PP per game, especially on a team with as weak of a back end as we have. I will continue for us to push to get an actual #1 defenseman (or clase as possible), and a defenseman better than Dekeyser until we have said player. It's our biggest issue on the roster, currently.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Point production at ES is a bit random and somewhat a team-stat, but my counter to those names would be that Danny had 8 goals this season and has reached 30+ points just last season, something most of those guys either have never done or haven't done in ages. Dekeyser's ES production has been 63rd (only played 65 games), 31st and 53rd in the league over the last 3 years, which supports my argument that he is better at producing offense than he gets credit for. He absolutely does not deserve to be accused of having "zero offense". He puts up more points on even-strength than a lot of guys that are described as amazing PMDs that are also on better teams. Dekeyser could hit 40+ points for sure during his next contract.

goal production for defenseman can be quite random too. dekeyser had 8 goals in 78 games this season. 6 goals in his previous 150+ games. dekeyser shot at almost 10% last season. that's not sustainable for most defenseman. actually scratch most since no defenseman has been able to maintain that high sh% for the past 3 seasons.

as for those guys and my thoughts on them.

Sami Vatanen - better than DK or at least same level, limited ice time hurts his overall numbers.
Kevin Shattenkirk - better than DDK or at least same level, weird down year in ES production.
Seth Jones - younger than DDK was as a rookie, about same level now, will be one of the best
Zach Bogosian - about DDK level player.
Olli Maatta - similar player as DDK, just a lot younger.
Adam Larsson - solid, DDK level player, not really great PMD. same age now as DDK was as a rookie
Matt Niskanen - solid, DDK level player, not really great PMD.
Hanifin - kid's 19.
Trouba - little better than DDK or same level, still younger than DDK was as a rookie. will be awesome.
Dumba - not that good, still younger than dekeyser was as a rookie.
Hampus Lindholm - awesome, still younger than dekeyser was as a rookie
Cam Fowler - DDK-level player.

of those, only guys i really would want are seth jones, hanifin, lindholm and trouba. first 3 aren't going anywhere. 4th might cost larkin if he's. vatanen and shatty interest me but the asking price is probably too high for their level of play. everyone wants good dman and wings have limited assets.

larsson obviously ain't moving anywhere anymore and i wouldn't have paid him that much or even close to it what it took to get him.


i think DDK's relatively solid point production so far ES is not descriptive of his offensive talent. he doesn't have very high number of point primary points. last yea he had 19 assists 5on5. this year 10. this year he had more primary assists. and it's not like he's a guy who picks up primary points just because he has the puck on his stick so often and controls the play so much that when he's on the ice and puck ends up on the net, it has been recently on dekeyser's stick and good play(s) led to that goal. something that one would expect from upper echelon offensive dman.

 

[Frk It]

"ideally, danny would like to do a longer-term deal. The club would like to do a longer-term deal," holland said. "since they filed, this period of negotiation and time to do your brief for an arbitration hearing has mostly been about discussions on a longer-term deal.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Not going to leave Danny as the only player on this roster who doesn't have a half decade + obviously

 

[Reddwit]

Point production at ES is a bit random and somewhat a team-stat, but my counter to those names would be that Danny had 8 goals this season and has reached 30+ points just last season, something most of those guys either have never done or haven't done in ages. Dekeyser's ES production has been 63rd (only played 65 games), 31st and 53rd in the league over the last 3 years, which supports my argument that he is better at producing offense than he gets credit for. He absolutely does not deserve to be accused of having "zero offense". He puts up more points on even-strength than a lot of guys that are described as amazing PMDs that are also on better teams. Dekeyser could hit 40+ points for sure during his next contract.


This is basically it. If Danny put up an extra 10-20 points per year on the PP he would be considered a #1 or at least a good #2. But does his lack of PP ability really make him a worse player than someone like Shattenkirk who this board would die to acquire, a guy that mostly lives off the PP?

The very fact that Dekeyser doesn't produce on the PP despite ample opportunity to do so says plenty about his skillet. The guy is what he is. His vision is passable and that's it. He's had more than enough practice and game time on the PP to tackle the offensive side of things. Whether or not other offense-oriented guys can do the opposite and tackle the PK or defensive side of things is irrelevant if they haven't ever been asked to. Shattenkirk is a great example of that. Maybe he'd be a better defensive player if he came of age on a team that needed to see that, but he didn't. Marc-Andre Bergerons are anomalies - not the mirrors image of guys like Dekeyser.

AFAIK, all the guys people are comparing Dekeyser to have come into the league tackling the offensive side of things. The fact that these guys are the minority league-wide should tell us plenty about how valuable the offensive skillset is when coming from defenseman who are competent defensively. We see "offense only" guys strengthen their defensive game considerably over time, but we rarely see defense-first guys strengthen their offense considerably over time. And this shouldn't surprise anyone. In all skating positions, players can make huge strides defensively but rarely are those same comparable strides made offensively.

I love Dekeyser. He's one of my favorite players. He's very smart without the puck but his intelligence WITH the puck only holds water if he's conservative. The guy does not have more than occasional vision. He rarely threads the needle, hits anyone breaking, finds the open man up high, etc. He simply isn't some god that if only given Ray Whitney-type PP time would blow the doors off his previous point totals.

Like FrkIt might have said, Dekeyser is awesome, but beefs arise when people try to make him out as something other than he is.

 

[Oddbob]

Danny Dekeyser is just one of those guys, that I just don't see the hype. Nothing he does, seems especially noteworthy or impressive. Not even just looking at stats, but the way he plays. He is big and skates well, but there is virtually no physicality from him, which was fine for Nick Lidstrom, but Dekeyser is nowhere near Lidstrom, so that is an issue to me.

He has as much trouble also, at getting the puck out of our zone, as Ericsson or Quincey did, especially last season, with quite a few passes up the middle in front of our net, late in the season and playoffs. Also, doesn't keep the front of the net clear of traffic due to lack of aforementioned physicality.

I really want to like the guy, and every game, I am like, ok Danny play awesome man, but by the end of the game he isn't a noticeable factor. And yes I understand defensive d-men can be good without being noticeable. I honestly believe he is a 5-6 guy, who you can plug into the top 4 due to injuries.

Before Ericsson started to drop of the map, his play was at a higher rate than Danny Dekyser, from what I saw, so him getting locked up long term seems frustrating to me. I hope I am wrong, and he is a mainstay in our top 4, playing awesome defensive d, but I just don't see it right now.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Ericsson has never been better than DD.

Ericsson was a serviceable pylon for one season, and turned into garbage the year he signed his contract and then turned into a dumpster fire the year after that.

DD knows he has the Wings by the ***** in terms of competition on the depth chart. Nothing but more #6-7 defenseman in GR, and the current blue line is a bigger disaster than Chernobyl.