Defense / Goals Against

[gocbj]

I didn't play hockey. Why have we given up a league-leading 210 goals per game (the average is 173)?

Goalies? Very bad (we are last) D-men...and what makes them bad (slow, young, small, skill, brains, experience)? The way we play as a team overall (we are also 17 goals "for" above the average).

Looking at it another way and to summarize: If we have these same 8 guys in 3 years (I acknowledge that we won't, but...), would we be better?

Click to read more...

 

[DarkandStormy]

They might give up 300 goals this season.

 

[stevo61]

You need to look beyond just the defensemen when considering overall team defense. The forwards are just as much to blame. This is a young team littered with poor defensive players so we assumed it was going to be a team that struggled with goals against but score more and be more exciting which is exactly what we got. The goaltending was bailing the team out for awhile and now its more of the offense doing it with goaltending being pretty up and down
We just need to be patient with this group. Boqvist needs to stay healthy, Bean got a huge boost in minutes and responsibility so thats a change for him and Peeke barely played last year.
Take the lows with highs and look for potential upgrades in the offseason but for the most part its just the growing pains of a young team

 

[CoachWithNoTeam]

I don’t think it’s all the D group, but there is inexperience moreso with that group than the rest of the team. Peeke, Bean, Boqvist all essentially rookies playing prominent roles. I think it’s necessary growing pains and even if we iced the same exact group next year we could see improvement. But long term I think a contender would need to make a choice between one of Bean and Boqvist on the bottom pair, and add a very reliable top pair, more defensive leaning star back there. I think Svozil, Ceulemans, Knazko add some potential skill to gradually work their way up, but a big add will have to come via trade (like Chychrun) or draft (like Jiricek). Edit: Or free agency (like Klingberg?…)

 

[behemolari]

Defence is so much about player roles and structure which is result of good coaching (with good management support), there is your answer.

Some coaches are master of team defence and they can make difference, but they need certain players to fill places and whole team needs to obey same book.

Bad defence teams has no book or structure or players to fill places. Goals agains them usually appears to be easy as players are either out of place or doing random things, does this sound familiar?

 

[thebus88]

Is this the thread where I’m allowed to post that Merzlikins sucks??

Stats don’t lie, as I’ve heard in the past regarding other CBJ goalies.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Is this the thread where I’m allowed to post that Merzlikins sucks??

Stats don’t lie, as I’ve heard in the past regarding other CBJ goalies.

If that’s so, wouldn’t that make Korpisalo suck more considering his numbers are worse than his? (For 2-3 years running, by the way)

 

[Tommigun]

The CBJ would be a playoff team with even passable goaltending. Their goalie tandem isn’t even AHL level and they made a huge mistake in signing Merzlikins. He’s the sole reason for many of the losses and he’s an absolute master at giving up soft goals. He’s also not a warrior as he actively begged his team not to score on Shesterkin (which was pee-wee level bullshit I never thought I’d see in the NHL), only rivaled by the Hurricanes’ post game celebration shenanigans. If a team needs a goalie they should trade Merzlikins for future considerations and try to dump Korpisalo with him.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

The CBJ would be a playoff team with even passable goaltending. Their goalie tandem isn’t even AHL level and they made a huge mistake in signing Merzlikins. He’s the sole reason for many of the losses and he’s an absolute master at giving up soft goals. He’s also not a warrior as he actively begged his team not to score on Shesterkin (which was pee-wee level bullshit I never thought I’d see in the NHL), only rivaled by the Hurricanes’ post game celebration shenanigans. If a team needs a goalie they should trade Merzlikins for future considerations and try to dump Korpisalo with him.

I disagree. Think you're being way too harsh on the goaltending. Not that it's been good. Because it's hasn't been. It's definitely been below league average this season. But (and there are admittedly flaws/imperfections with advanced stats), the CBJ's goals against above expected (i.e., how well each team's goalies are playing) per moneypuck is 23rd out of the 32 teams. Bad. Not good enough. But not horrendous.

Elvis needs to be better. He's let in more soft goals this season than before. Out of goalies who've played 10 or more games, his save percentage above expected is 42nd out of 69. Again, not good enough. Especially for the money he's about to be making and the presumed expectation he's the number 1 guy. But that's also not "AHL level" let alone "(not) even AHL level". And it's certainly not bad enough for me to give up on him after the previous good couple of seasons he's had, particularly when he's dealt with the injury/Kivi/newborn this season (the last two of which are new/fresh, and the type of injury he dealt with might be new/something he's still fighting). I generally don't like to write guys off after only one bad season if they've proven worth previously (unless they're old, which Elvis is not).

But ultimately, the team defense is terrible. According to moneypuck, the CBJ expected goals against per 60 is last in the NHL at 3.42. That has nothing to do with save percentage: just the amount of goals expected against if the same goalie was in net for every team. Basically, our goaltending is 23rd as mentioned above. But our team defense is dead last. On a more embarrassing level, the 2021-22 CBJ achieved infamy that hasn't been achieved in at least 67 years (I say at least, because this stat has only been kept since 1955-56): allow 62 shots as the home team in a regular season game. No one had done that before. Not the 2017 Avs. Not the 2020 Wings. Not the 1993 Sens/Sharks. Not even the 1975 Caps. But the 2021-22 Blue Jackets now have.

Washington (WC2) extrapolated is on pace for 100 points. We're (extrapolated) on pace for 85 points. It'd likely take a Vezina-level effort to get this team into the playoffs. League average goaltending (which, to me, is an even higher bar than "passable" [I happen to think the current goaltending also would look/be considered "passable" if the team defense was the way it was 2016-20]) would not get this team in the playoffs. Maybe Shesterkin or Vaz would be worth 15 points compared to our goaltending this year over a full season. Maybe. Bobrovsky's 2016-17 Vezina season was worth just under 15 point shares, which is the 50th-most for a goalie in a single season in NHL history.

I'm not sure if it's talent, experience, system or some combination of all three (I'm hoping mostly the second and maybe a tinge of the third because that can be tweaked) but the team defense has to be better in future years for the CBJ to make noise. Yes, the goaltending has to be better than this year, too.

 

[I3LI3]

The CBJ would be a playoff team with even passable goaltending. Their goalie tandem isn’t even AHL level and they made a huge mistake in signing Merzlikins. He’s the sole reason for many of the losses and he’s an absolute master at giving up soft goals. He’s also not a warrior as he actively begged his team not to score on Shesterkin (which was pee-wee level bullshit I never thought I’d see in the NHL), only rivaled by the Hurricanes’ post game celebration shenanigans. If a team needs a goalie they should trade Merzlikins for future considerations and try to dump Korpisalo with him.

random (not so) fun fact:

Elvis had a .952 save percentage on the season thru 4 starts (undefeated) heading into this game.

Since that late october, brisk night when he called the troops back and told them not to attack the rangers in those dying seconds, his save percentage has been .896

(not suggesting that him doing this killed his season lol)

 

[JacketsDavid]

In honor of Patrick Ewing saying
"We make a lot of money but, we spend a lot of money"

We're scoring a lot of goals (for the CBJ) but we're giving up a ton.

 

[Dumais]

Agree with the growing pains sentiment. I think we have all the pieces already to have a playoff worthy D. Just need to develop. Could use a Veteran RD to allow Boqvist and Peeke without the responsibility to preform. I think the blame should start falling on the coach's shoulders if they don't improve next year.

 

[makethesave]

Defense is really TEAM DEFENSE. When it's man-on-man coverage (which CBJ utilizes), forwards share mostly same responsibility (but no blame). In addition, if the forwards have difficulties getting the puck moved out of the D zone, it will create added stress on the defense. I've seen better forward puck movement out of zone and through neutral zone lately as opposed to the first half of the season. But still, its far from perfect and nowhere as good as other teams in the top half of the league. Watch how elite teams forwards move the puck out...how they collect and possess the puck and move through the neutral zone. For now, it's an area of struggle for CBJ...but it's getting better. With a young defense, the last thing you want is inability to exit D zone and quick transitions back from the neutral zone. I do wonder...if you placed our D personnel with the Canes, Panthers, or Avalanche forward groups....might be a top 10 team ?

 

[NotCommitted]

I think giving up a lot of goals was to be expected. Maybe giving up even more goals than last season was to be expected as well. What was also to be expected, or at least hoped, was that the team would be also scoring more. Which they are. Compared to last season, 57gp this season vs 56gp the last, they have given up 24 more goals, but they have also scored 53 more goals, so they've gone from -50 to -21. That's a step in the right direction and they are doing it without Jones and with some very inexperienced guys in the line up. I'm not concerned about that at this point, but obviously they need to improve.

I said it before the season begun that this team would likely be better than people were expecting, and depending on the performance of the 1st line, they might surprise everyone and get to the playoffs. Well it really doesn't look like they will, but Laine missed 19 games and took some time to get back to proper gameshape after that. Looks like getting a decent Laine for that time period, they probably would be right in the mix. I'm happy this team is playing entertaining hockey most nights and showing good spirit for the most part, they are inconsistent from game to game and even within games, but they are also showing no quit and lead the league in comeback wins.

Goaltending has been a problem, or at least not part of the solution, though a lot of the goals are really about defensive break downs, but at the same time many games lately it seems Elvis is giving up 1 or 2 goals that you'd really want back. For a team that struggles defensively, you just need your goalie to be very good and Jackets just haven't got that most nights lately. But all top3 goalies in the org have been suffering with injuries, I'm sure that hasn't helped the situation.

All things considered I'm cautiously optimistic, they were supposed to touch bottom this season and if this is indeed the bottom, things look pretty good going forward. It's fair to expect guys like Sillinger and Chinakhov take a step forward during the off-season. Defense has some good pieces, another solid D-man to bring some stability would help and give the young guys some space to develop, which I think would be important. Having young D-men play over their head is often not good for them long term. The center question is a tough nut to crack, a #1C is just hard to come by, though Jenner has been doing well and if he can keep that up he could be fill the spot until they get a long term solution.

I guess what I'm saying is they have given up this many goals because that's pretty much the level they're at currently (some bad luck also with injuries), but that personally I would expect them to get better even without roster changes. The young players are learning and developing, including physically, Larsen is learning as well, it's his first season running the show.

 

[makethesave]

I think giving up a lot of goals was to be expected. Maybe giving up even more goals than last season was to be expected as well. What was also to be expected, or at least hoped, was that the team would be also scoring more. Which they are. Compared to last season, 57gp this season vs 56gp the last, they have given up 24 more goals, but they have also scored 53 more goals, so they've gone from -50 to -21. That's a step in the right direction and they are doing it without Jones and with some very inexperienced guys in the line up. I'm not concerned about that at this point, but obviously they need to improve.

I said it before the season begun that this team would likely be better than people were expecting, and depending on the performance of the 1st line, they might surprise everyone and get to the playoffs. Well it really doesn't look like they will, but Laine missed 19 games and took some time to get back to proper gameshape after that. Looks like getting a decent Laine for that time period, they probably would be right in the mix. I'm happy this team is playing entertaining hockey most nights and showing good spirit for the most part, they are inconsistent from game to game and even within games, but they are also showing no quit and lead the league in comeback wins.

Goaltending has been a problem, or at least not part of the solution, though a lot of the goals are really about defensive break downs, but at the same time many games lately it seems Elvis is giving up 1 or 2 goals that you'd really want back. For a team that struggles defensively, you just need your goalie to be very good and Jackets just haven't got that most nights lately. But all top3 goalies in the org have been suffering with injuries, I'm sure that hasn't helped the situation.

All things considered I'm cautiously optimistic, they were supposed to touch bottom this season and if this is indeed the bottom, things look pretty good going forward. It's fair to expect guys like Sillinger and Chinakhov take a step forward during the off-season. Defense has some good pieces, another solid D-man to bring some stability would help and give the young guys some space to develop, which I think would be important. Having young D-men play over their head is often not good for them long term. The center question is a tough nut to crack, a #1C is just hard to come by, though Jenner has been doing well and if he can keep that up he could be fill the spot until they get a long term solution.

I guess what I'm saying is they have given up this many goals because that's pretty much the level they're at currently (some bad luck also with injuries), but that personally I would expect them to get better even without roster changes. The young players are learning and developing, including physically, Larsen is learning as well, it's his first season running the show.

This season was all about preparing for the future. New coaching staff, new leadership group, and a lot of new players taking on bigger roles. After the season (or trade deadline even) management will be able to sift through and make the determinations as to which players they want to move forward with. And which players can embrace the team culture. There was always going to be mistakes and growing pains this season. I try to be very patient with the younger players or those finally getting NHL playing time. I'm amazed at the number of people that criticize certain young players on this team this season. They are not surrounded by high level quality (yet). The young players are gaining invaluable experience this season and it will only make them better faster. I look for the positives this season. For example, our PK has killed 62 of the last 73 (85%). Season to date the team is 13th overall on the PK. That's a very good stat. Peeke leads the team in PK ice time and one of the highest ranked in PK time and overall NHL ranking. Gavrikov is close by on PK ice time. If you want to talk about stressful defense...its on the PK. And we are doing pretty well there with Gavrikov and Peeke on the ice for the great majority. There has been improvement with our PP. There are things the team can improve on for sure. Mistakes are part of hockey and the task is to minimize them via experience. Take Peeke, as an example...he's played the last 20 games on the top pairing against the best forwards in the world. Prior to that, he was on third or second pairing. And prior to this season, he was barely playing. Imagine the experience he's gaining. But that's one example...take Sillinger, Chinakhov, Danforth up front and Boqvist and Bean at the back end. The experience of this year for the youngsters is invaluable and will only help this team as it takes its next steps forward.

 

[DarkandStormy]

The team now leads the league in xGA and actual GA at both 5v5 and all situations.

 

[DarkandStormy]

This year's team set records for most goals allowed in a season (just shy of 300), goals allowed per game, and shots on goal allowed per game. Depending on which fancy tracker site you prefer, the team also led the league in expected goals allowed at 5v5 (~190-200).

Blue Jackets Sunday Gathering: A Kirill Marchenko signing is imminent, and more

Plus a look at Brad Larsen's first year as Blue Jackets head coach, Jack Roslovic's improvement and more.

theathletic.com

I'm sorry, what? McCarthy was a last-minute, emergency hire after Lefebvre wouldn't get vaccinated. The team put together, by virtually every metric, its worst defensive season in franchise history. And they want to bring back the guy who coached the defense??

 

[VT]

View attachment 539692

This year's team set records for most goals allowed in a season (just shy of 300), goals allowed per game, and shots on goal allowed per game. Depending on which fancy tracker site you prefer, the team also led the league in expected goals allowed at 5v5 (~190-200).

Blue Jackets Sunday Gathering: A Kirill Marchenko signing is imminent, and more

Plus a look at Brad Larsen's first year as Blue Jackets head coach, Jack Roslovic's improvement and more.

theathletic.com

View attachment 539694

I'm sorry, what? McCarthy was a last-minute, emergency hire after Lefebvre wouldn't get vaccinated. The team put together, by virtually every metric, its worst defensive season in franchise history. And they want to bring back the guy who coached the defense??

You forget our defense was one from the youngest if not the youngest, very inexperienced and many time Bayreuther, Kukan etc played. Also Sillinger was the youngest player in NHL and Roslovic only learned to play like center. These are very important things for defense, centers and d-men themselves.

 

[CBJx614]

View attachment 539692

This year's team set records for most goals allowed in a season (just shy of 300), goals allowed per game, and shots on goal allowed per game. Depending on which fancy tracker site you prefer, the team also led the league in expected goals allowed at 5v5 (~190-200).

Blue Jackets Sunday Gathering: A Kirill Marchenko signing is imminent, and more

Plus a look at Brad Larsen's first year as Blue Jackets head coach, Jack Roslovic's improvement and more.

theathletic.com

View attachment 539694

I'm sorry, what? McCarthy was a last-minute, emergency hire after Lefebvre wouldn't get vaccinated. The team put together, by virtually every metric, its worst defensive season in franchise history. And they want to bring back the guy who coached the defense??

As VT just said, this team is super young, constantly rotated through 5/6's all season. And as many others have said, defense requires all 5 players on the ice. With the team being so young and trying to find its identity its not surprising that the team is going to count on some internal growth going into next season.

It would be one thing if the average age on the team was like 30. But we are literally the 2nd youngest team in the league and to nobodies surprise the least experienced, we are also the lightest (average weight of 192 lbs), Although, for the record, Toronto, Minnesota, Carolina, Colorado and EDM are all under the 200lb average as well.

And while some of those teams arent TOO much older, the amount of experience between the two(games played) is absolutely massive.

Carolina for example, Average age of 27 (compared to Columbus' 25.3) but they have almost DOUBLE the amount of games played on their roster. (11,051 for Carolina compared to 6,129 for Columbus)



Also....one stat that is kind of concerning if those stats are accurate..... Zack Werenski is the biggest player on the defense. He outweighs Gav by 3 lbs while being an inch shorter...but outweights Bean by almost 40 lbs while being an inch taller.

Second Edit: Holy shit, Zach is the heaviest player on the entire team...

Elite Prospects - Team Comparison in NHL

Compare average height, weight and age in NHL.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[JacketsDavid]

To me defense is instilled by the coaches. I really question if that was the focus this season.
I don't necessarily want Hitch or Torts back behind the bench but that is what they expected. If they players didn't play the way they expected they sat on the bench a lot (just think of Laine under Torts).
I think there has to be a happy medium and more than anything the expectation of what is expected.
This team finally has some guys on the blue line that can skate and are more offensive minded. That (personnel) likely won't change but adding a more steady guy beside Zach who is more of the stay at home guy would help. Holding the forwards accountable should be the expectation as well.
Defense is not something we need to make over the roster to get, it's something that has to be coached.

 

[CBJx614]

To me defense is instilled by the coaches. I really question if that was the focus this season.
I don't necessarily want Hitch or Torts back behind the bench but that is what they expected. If they players didn't play the way they expected they sat on the bench a lot (just think of Laine under Torts).
I think there has to be a happy medium and more than anything the expectation of what is expected.
This team finally has some guys on the blue line that can skate and are more offensive minded. That (personnel) likely won't change but adding a more steady guy beside Zach who is more of the stay at home guy would help. Holding the forwards accountable should be the expectation as well.
Defense is not something we need to make over the roster to get, it's something that has to be coached.

I think both Larsen and Jarmo didnt want anything that resembled Torts' D first mentality style of play. I think thats what Jarmo meant when he said they were looking for something from Larsen to prove he was different from Torts. I will be curious to see how they attempt to fix it and I agree another stay at home type wouldnt be too bad of an idea.

 

[Youngguns80]

To me defense is instilled by the coaches. I really question if that was the focus this season.
I don't necessarily want Hitch or Torts back behind the bench but that is what they expected. If they players didn't play the way they expected they sat on the bench a lot (just think of Laine under Torts).
I think there has to be a happy medium and more than anything the expectation of what is expected.
This team finally has some guys on the blue line that can skate and are more offensive minded. That (personnel) likely won't change but adding a more steady guy beside Zach who is more of the stay at home guy would help. Holding the forwards accountable should be the expectation as well.
Defense is not something we need to make over the roster to get, it's something that has to be coached.

There is no silver bullet - it is a combination of roster, systems, coaching and goaltending.

Roster - combination of skill, maturity and the player (i.e., Hockey IQ, attitude, capability)
Systems - put simplistic - defensive positioning in the defensive zone, neutral zone, offensive zone, face-offs, PK’s. Then you have man to man type defenses in the defensive zone etc.
Coaching - reinforcing, instilling, teaching and recognition of want to do and patterns as well in game what they are doing
Goaltending - understanding the system and what the defense in front of them are going to do, reading the play and angles - etc. (I am not a goalie guy I played center)

 

[Monk]

There is no silver bullet

I mean, there is... and you know it's cold when the mountains are blue.

 

[NotWendell]

View attachment 539692

This year's team set records for most goals allowed in a season (just shy of 300), goals allowed per game, and shots on goal allowed per game. Depending on which fancy tracker site you prefer, the team also led the league in expected goals allowed at 5v5 (~190-200).

Blue Jackets Sunday Gathering: A Kirill Marchenko signing is imminent, and more

Plus a look at Brad Larsen's first year as Blue Jackets head coach, Jack Roslovic's improvement and more.

theathletic.com

View attachment 539694

I'm sorry, what? McCarthy was a last-minute, emergency hire after Lefebvre wouldn't get vaccinated. The team put together, by virtually every metric, its worst defensive season in franchise history. And they want to bring back the guy who coached the defense??

I would hope they'd bring him back to be the head coach in Cleveland.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I mean, there is... and you know it's cold when the mountains are blue.

You know this is a good post when the dude with the Miller Lite avatar likes it.