Defencemen Rankings #15

[Boreal01]

1) Victor Hedman (57.2%)
2) Cale Makar (70.1%)
3) Adam Fox (51.7%)
4) Alex Pietrangelo (26.7%)
5) Roman Josi (28.7%)
6) Charlie McAvoy (40.2%)
7) Miro Heiskanen (28.1%)
8) Jaccob Slavin (22.0%)
9) Dougie Hamilton (33.1%)
10) John Carlson (20.9%)
11) Aaron Ekblad (27.6%)
12) Shea Theodore (40.7%)
13) Kris Letang (21.7%)
14) Seth Jones (22.7%)

Added Provorov

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[amnesiac]

I think Hughes' offense outweighs his poor D at this point. Hes still a 60+ point Dman. So him.

add: Burns, Ellis, Barrie, Dahlin, OEL

 

[Buck Naked]

I think Hughes' offense outweighs his poor D at this point. Hes still a 60+ point Dman. So him.

add: Burns, Ellis, Barrie, Dahlin, OEL

Chychrun also scored 41 points in 56 games last season and was a lot better as a whole while also scoring goals as a D. I like him better here.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Went Werenski.

Probably Chychrun next, or Chabot/Petry/Pelech any are fine.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I think Hughes' offense outweighs his poor D at this point. Hes still a 60+ point Dman. So him.

add: Burns, Ellis, Barrie, Dahlin, OEL

Problem is, Hughes defense isn't just poor, it's absolutely awful.

Unfortunately, the almost unplayable defense outweighs the offense.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Chabot.

 

[ted2019]

Chychrun

 

[Murzu]

Chychrun. Then a toss up between Werenski and Toews.

Add Sam Girard.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Werenski.

Add Girard and Ellis.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Chychrun, Werenski, Hughes.

 

[loosemoose]

Still Spurgeon, who should be on Canada's Olympic team.

 

[amnesiac]

Problem is, Hughes defense isn't just poor, it's absolutely awful.

Unfortunately, the almost unplayable defense outweighs the offense.

I understand, but 60+P is 60+P.

If he were on a better team we probably wouldnt be talking about his poor D as much, much like how EK was still regarded as a top Dman for so many years despite his poor D. (no Im not saying Hughes is as good as EK at his peak)

 

[Ds88]

Went with Doughty because it’s funny that he’s in the poll.

 

[Buck Naked]

I understand, but 60+P is 60+P.

If he were on a better team we probably wouldnt be talking about his poor D as much, much like how EK was still regarded as a top Dman for so many years despite his poor D. (no Im not saying Hughes is as good as EK at his peak)

Karlsson wasn't even close to that awful at D though.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...poor Provorov...in a vacuum, I personally think he should be in the Top 15 easily, but he's weighed down by having to be the only responsible Flyers defenseman defensively, which totally negates a lot of his offensive capabilities...pity Philly can't seem to get their shyte together, cuz they are wasting the Prime of a really good defenseman...

 

[Jared Dunn]

I think Petry deserves some love if we're just strictly speaking right now. Chychrun or Chabot by a mile as far as who I'm picking to start a team though

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I understand, but 60+P is 60+P.

If he were on a better team we probably wouldnt be talking about his poor D as much, much like how EK was still regarded as a top Dman for so many years despite his poor D. (no Im not saying Hughes is as good as EK at his peak)

But using that same logic why would you give Hughes the nod over Barrie who significantly outproduced him offensively (for the record I don't think either Hughes or Barrie belong anywhere near this high on the defenseman list).

Or even guys like Chychrun, Nurse, and Petry who produced similar if not better offense and played much larger roles and with better defensive results.

 

[Lawzy]

But using that same logic why would you give Hughes the nod over Barrie who significantly outproduced him offensively (for the record I don't think either Hughes or Barrie belong anywhere near this high on the defenseman list).

Or even guys like Chychrun, Nurse, and Petry who produced similar if not better offense and played much larger roles and with better defensive results.

I get your point but if you're going to argue Barrie "significantly outproduced" Quinn by scoring 7 more points, I don't think you can also claim Nurse "produced similar if not better offense" when the gap between him and Quinn was nearly identical to that of Barrie and Quinn. I won't even go into who these guys are playing with.

Quinn adapted exceptionally poorly to the loss of Tanev. I agree that if 2020-2021 is indicative of Quinn's defensive abilities, he is no where near a top 15 defenseman in the league. That being said, I think it's unfair to paint him in that light just yet. The entire 2020-2021 season was a disaster for the Canucks. Quinn has shown he can hold his own defensively, albeit mostly while he has been paired with Tanev, when called upon. If the requirement for Quinn to succeed as a two-way defenseman is to simply staple him to a stay at home defenseman, I'd be hard-pressed to ever call him a true #1 defenseman. A bonafide offensive star? Sure, but that's only half the requirement here. I think this upcoming season should be fairly indicative of what we're looking at with Quinn.

 

[amnesiac]

But using that same logic why would you give Hughes the nod over Barrie who significantly outproduced him offensively (for the record I don't think either Hughes or Barrie belong anywhere near this high on the defenseman list).

Or even guys like Chychrun, Nurse, and Petry who produced similar if not better offense and played much larger roles and with better defensive results.

Fine, maybe I dont realise how bad defensively he actually is. But were only talking about one bad season in his own end on pretty bad Canucks team. I mean, many were giving him the Calder just 2 seasons ago. And I know Tanev covered his ass in 19-20, but whos to say another offensive Dman like say, Makar, would look any better on the Canucks? Put Hughes with Girard and suddenly he looks great again.... I dunno.

As for Barrie and Nurse, they flourished on one of the best PPs in the league and both had career years. Barrie has already proved he can be completely useless on another team (TOR). Petry and Chychrun also had a career years, and as confident as I am that Chychrun will be a star, Id like to see him have another season like he just did.

Anyway, like I said, maybe hes much worse that I thought.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Fine, maybe I dont realise how bad defensively he actually is. But were only talking about one bad season in his own end on pretty bad Canucks team. I mean, many were giving him the Calder just 2 seasons ago. And I know Tanev covered his ass in 19-20, but whos to say another offensive Dman like say, Makar, would look any better on the Canucks? Put Hughes with Girard and suddenly he looks great again.... I dunno.

As for Barrie and Nurse, they flourished on one of the best PPs in the league and both had career years. Barrie has already proved he can be completely useless on another team (TOR). Petry and Chychrun also had a career years, and as confident as I am that Chychrun will be a star, Id like to see him have another season like he just did.

Anyway, like I said, maybe hes much worse that I thought.

I don't disagree with the majority of your sentiment. But Makar is a lot better than Hughes defensively- flat out. Regardless of who their partners are.

Barrie only looked "useless" for a small stretch under Babcock on a team who was an awful fit for him. In Colorado, Toronto (under Keefe) and in Edmonton he has been far from "useless". He is a very good player with warts. But like I said him and Hughes should both be a lot lower on this list.

Nurse barely got any PP time, as it was hogged by Barrie. The vast majority of Nurse's production came at even strength (making it all the more impressive). Petry and Chychrun did both have career years, but with Weber out Petry will have a huge role this coming season and Chychrun is still very young, he seems to be a good bet to build on this past year.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I get your point but if you're going to argue Barrie "significantly outproduced" Quinn by scoring 7 more points, I don't think you can also claim Nurse "produced similar if not better offense" when the gap between him and Quinn was nearly identical to that of Barrie and Quinn. I won't even go into who these guys are playing with.

Quinn adapted exceptionally poorly to the loss of Tanev. I agree that if 2020-2021 is indicative of Quinn's defensive abilities, he is no where near a top 15 defenseman in the league. That being said, I think it's unfair to paint him in that light just yet. The entire 2020-2021 season was a disaster for the Canucks. Quinn has shown he can hold his own defensively, albeit mostly while he has been paired with Tanev, when called upon. If the requirement for Quinn to succeed as a two-way defenseman is to simply staple him to a stay at home defenseman, I'd be hard-pressed to ever call him a true #1 defenseman. A bonafide offensive star? Sure, but that's only half the requirement here. I think this upcoming season should be fairly indicative of what we're looking at with Quinn.

I listed Nurse there since his production came largely at 5v5. Even strength production is usually considered more valuable than PP points that Barrie/Hughes feasted on.

Nurse was 2nd (tied) in the NHL in 5v5 points by a defenseman. I don't think its unfair to lump him in with Chychrun and Petry and refer to it as similar levels of offense.

 

[Lawzy]

I listed Nurse there since his production came largely at 5v5. Even strength production is usually considered more valuable than PP points that Barrie/Hughes feasted on.

Nurse was 2nd (tied) in the NHL in 5v5 points by a defenseman. I don't think its unfair to lump him in with Chychrun and Petry and refer to it as similar levels of offense.

While impressive, Nurse was also 2nd in league for 5v5 TOI at 21:51. A better stat for recognizing Nurse's scoring prowess 5v5 would be ESP/60 where he ranked 16th among defensemen (1.423). For reference, Barrie was 9th (1.507) and Hughes was 39th (1.235).

The reason Hughes and Barrie have considerably more PP points than Nurse is because they are elite PPQBs. I don't see any reason to punish either of these players for being elite relative to their position. Hell, Nurse is quite effective on the PP as well, he has similar PP/60 stats to Hughes (albeit on a much better PP unit) so I wouldn't be surprised if Nurse was as effective as Hughes if he was given the minutes. But he wasn't.

 

[majormajor]

Fine, maybe I dont realise how bad defensively he actually is. But were only talking about one bad season in his own end on pretty bad Canucks team. I mean, many were giving him the Calder just 2 seasons ago. And I know Tanev covered his ass in 19-20, but whos to say another offensive Dman like say, Makar, would look any better on the Canucks? Put Hughes with Girard and suddenly he looks great again.... I dunno.

Hughes never earned a Calder though, mostly just a lot of misplaced hype. He had a couple great months at the beginning of his rookie season where he was managing the puck wonderfully, and he earned a lot of notice from the analytics crowd, and perhaps he'll eventually recover that ability. But by the end of that season all of his stats had regressed and he was increasingly targeted by the opposition. His performance vs Vegas in the playoffs was horrible, as he gifted them several goals. Then a bad year last year. It's not like he is suffering for that one bad year, because there is very little positive track record before that.

Makar, of all players in the league, has proven that he needs very little help to do what he does. He might have a better reputation if he wasn't playing on the Avs. Ryan Graves was his regular D partner and he isn't good. And his TOI with Mackinnon is less productive than his TOI with lesser forwards.