Deep and talented group of defensemen lead Pittsburgh Penguins Top 20

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

So much hand-wringing.

Not everyone has blind faith in Shero and DB, or are willing to make endless excuses for the team's failures.

Many realize that none of the issues that have lead to 4 straight PO embarrassments have been fixed.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hopefully. He could be moved for a rental, or an unproven forward as well.

And with 12 forward spots, a young F working out the kinks is much different than a young Dman.

I'm not really disagreeing, just thought it was worth noting.

 

[Crafton]

So much hand-wringing.

It's the time of the season
When frustration runs high
In this time, give it to me easy
And let me try to knock the prospects

To take that guy in the first round
Shows to every one
It's the time of the season for whining

What's your name?
Who's your scout?
Is he keen like me?
Has he taken any time
To show you how to draft forwards?

Tell it to me slowly
Tell you what I really want to know
It's the time of the season for whining

What's your name?
Who's your scout?
Does he read draft guides like me?
Has he taken any time
To show you what you need to draft?

Tell it to me slowly
Tell you what I really want to know
It's the time of the season for whining

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not everyone has blind faith in Shero and DB, or are willing to make endless excuses for the team's failures.

Many realize that none of the issues that have lead to 4 straight PO embarrassments have been fixed.

The body of Shero's work in the trading department is overwhelmingly positive. Using deals at one deadline as his standard is misleading because its based on a small sample size. He's shown year-after-year to be as shrewd as any GM in the league when it comes to dealing assets to shore up roster holes.

And not only were our previous 4 playoff losses not all "embarrassments", they also were not all lost for the same reasons. Only an idiot would suggest that we lost to Philadelphia because we couldn't score, as was the case versus Boston.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It's the time of the season
When frustration runs high
In this time, give it to me easy
And let me try to knock the prospects

To take him in the first round
Shows to every one
It's the time of the season for whining

What's your name?
Who's your scout?
Is he keen like me?
Has he taken any time
To show you how to draft forwards?

Tell it to me slowly
Tell you what I really want to know
It's the time of the season for whining

What's your name?
Who's your scout?
Does he read draft guides like me?
Has he taken any time
To show you what you need to draft?

Tell it to me slowly
Tell you what I really want to know
It's the time of the season for whining

I sang this in breathy vocals in my head.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The body of Shero's work in the trading department is overwhelmingly positive. Using deals at one deadline as his standard is misleading because its based on a small sample size. He's shown year-after-year to be as shrewd as any GM in the league when it comes to dealing assets to shore up roster holes.

And not only were our previous 4 playoff losses not all "embarrassments", they also were not all lost for the same reasons. Only an idiot would suggest that we lost to Philadelphia because we couldn't score, as was the case versus Boston.

They lost to PHI and BOS because they lost their composure and DB got out-coached.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

They lost to PHI and BOS because they lost their composure and DB got out-coached.

EDIT: Nope, changed my mind. Not going to get drawn into that again in this thread. I've said my piece many times about this.

 

[penguins2946*]

They lost to PHI and BOS because they lost their composure and DB got out-coached.

So it's Bylsma's fault that Fleury laid an egg in 2012 and Crosby and Malkin couldn't score in 2013? Makes perfect sense. I dislike Bylsma just as much as the next guy, but come on. It isn't his fault that the goalie craps the bed (when there are no better options available) or the team's star players go on a cold streak.

Why can't people blame Crosby and Malkin (specifically Crosby) for that Boston series? Bylsma can't go out and score the goals. Maybe point the finger at the 2 players who are paid $9 million dollars a season to score.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So it's Bylsma's fault that Fleury laid an egg in 2012 and Crosby and Malkin couldn't score in 2013? Makes perfect sense. I dislike Bylsma just as much as the next guy, but come on. It isn't his fault that the goalie craps the bed (when there are no better options available) or the team's star players go on a cold streak.

Why can't people blame Crosby and Malkin (specifically Crosby) for that Boston series? Bylsma can't go out and score the goals. Maybe point the finger at the 2 players who are paid $9 million dollars a season to score.

They get their share of the blame. But Bylsma really did a terrible job coaching that series. There's no excuse for not shaking up Sid's line. None at all. There's also no excuse for Jarome Iginla playing on Geno and Neal's left wing and being pulled from the powerplay. Just terrible coaching decisions all over the place.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC, Shero has proven that he's as good as anyone at flipping assets to fill roster holes, so the imbalance between forward and defense prospects isn't anything to get worked up about, particularly since we have the top 6 sewn up for the next few years.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

So it's Bylsma's fault that Fleury laid an egg in 2012 and Crosby and Malkin couldn't score in 2013? Makes perfect sense. I dislike Bylsma just as much as the next guy, but come on. It isn't his fault that the goalie craps the bed (when there are no better options available) or the team's star players go on a cold streak.

Why can't people blame Crosby and Malkin (specifically Crosby) for that Boston series? Bylsma can't go out and score the goals. Maybe point the finger at the 2 players who are paid $9 million dollars a season to score.

MAf was bad, but the D was just as bad vs Philly. They were rattled the entire series. They blew a 3 goal lead in game 1 and a 2 goal lead in game 2. To put all the blame on MAF is disingenuous and lazy.

And don't get me started on the BOS series. Jerome ****ing Iginla on LW?? Seriously? How about taking him off the PP that was going at over 30% IIRC. How about how there was never anyone infront of Rask?

DB has shown time and time again that he will get out-coached in the POs.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC, Shero has proven that he's as good as anyone at flipping assets to fill roster holes, so the imbalance between forward and defense prospects isn't anything to get worked up about, particularly since we have the top 6 sewn up for the next few years.

Shero made two trades involving established PMDs for great returns and has gotten a free pass for every bad move he's made since form the In Shero We Trust card holders.

And not everyone is happy with a 34 Duper glued to Sid's hip for the next 4 years. Not to mention almost no injury insurance.

 

[penguins2946*]

They get their share of the blame. But Bylsma really did a terrible job coaching that series. There's no excuse for not shaking up Sid's line. None at all. There's also no excuse for Jarome Iginla playing on Geno and Neal's left wing and being pulled from the powerplay. Just terrible coaching decisions all over the place.

Of course, I'm not trying to say that no blame falls on Bylsma, he made a lot of bad choices with the lines. However, solely blaming DB while not saying anything about 0 points for Crosby and Malkin is just wrong. While putting Iginla with Crosby and Dupuis may have helped, I don't think it would have changed the results much.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Of course, I'm not trying to say that no blame falls on Bylsma, he made a lot of bad choices with the lines. However, solely blaming DB while not saying anything about 0 points for Crosby and Malkin is just wrong. While putting Iginla with Crosby and Dupuis may have helped, I don't think it would have changed the results much.

who knows? Nobody, because Dan Bylsma is too stubborn to even try.

I agree that it isn't all on him. But Dan Bylsma has hurt our chances of winning in 3 of the last 4 playoffs. Unless he improves, he is going to continue giving us a disadvantage in every playoff series he coaches.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Shero made two trades involving established PMDs for great returns and has gotten a free pass for every bad move he's made since form the In Shero We Trust card holders.

And not everyone is happy with a 34 Duper glued to Sid's hip for the next 4 years. Not to mention almost no injury insurance.

Shero has made a metric ton of great trades during his tenure here. To suggest otherwise is either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Where are all the bad trades outside of the deadline deals that didn't work out last year? Please list them, so I can proceed to dwarf it with a list of his good deals and relieve you of this ridiculous idea.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Shero has made a metric ton of great trades during his tenure here. To suggest otherwise is either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Where are all these "bad moves" outside of the deadline deals that didn't work out last year? Please list them, so I can proceed to dwarf it with a list of his good deals and relieve you of this ridiculous idea.

his worst moves are Morrow4Morrow and then probably signing Glass. Maybe the Michalek situation fits in there. Ya, that's not so bad.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

his worst moves are Morrow4Morrow, trading for Poni and then probably signing Glass. Ya, that's not so bad.

Exactly. You'd be hard-pressed to find a GM with a better "good to bad trade" ratio.

Considering we only gave up Caputi for Poni, and we're talking about Shero's ability to trade assets to fill holes so Glass doesn't qualify, it's slim pickins.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The body of Shero's work in the trading department is overwhelmingly positive. Using deals at one deadline as his standard is misleading because its based on a small sample size. He's shown year-after-year to be as shrewd as any GM in the league when it comes to dealing assets to shore up roster holes.

And not only were our previous 4 playoff losses not all "embarrassments", they also were not all lost for the same reasons. Only an idiot would suggest that we lost to Philadelphia because we couldn't score, as was the case versus Boston.

They lost to PHI and BOS because they lost their composure and DB got out-coached.

He's got a very good point, RRP.

1. One was no support winger wise. (MTL)

2. One where they either just plain gave up because Sid said he won't be back, or somehow these guys forgot how to give a **** about winning.(TB)

3. Finally healthy, then they all became head cases.(Flyers)

4. Still head cases, but managed to get to the ECF's before unleashing it's head again full force, they snubbed out the early first round all the players agreed was in their heads weighing in on them and regrouped with the help from, V.

5. DB hasn't out coached a very good team since 2009 in the playoffs. He only recently out coached two very inexperienced ones in, Capuano and MacLean. Oh. yeah, and that other Ottawa coach. Bylsma is more experienced of the trio. I laugh because, at least those teams they coach don't come with as much talent as DB inherited, though, both are on the rise. This all makes Bylsma just as much a head case as the players he coaches. How can the players learn from their mistakes/deficiencies if the coach can't own up to his own?

6. They're "all in" denial, and adding Scuderi, Martin will help, but for how long?

7. This "team" is their own worst enemy.

8. Shero has a hand in this also, but I think his is mostly reserved for the years of the Montreal and Flyers debacles doing basically nothing for one...well, really both years, and letting guys walk they could have easily kept in hindsight. (Scuderi, Gill, Talbot)

9. Everything changed from what won them a cup, everything. (Don't bother coming back with the signings of players monkeys would recognize are must signs) That's the whole point about, Bylsma, he was handed a star studded team, and hasn't repeated his luck with those stars in the lineup. The only one being the year of Sids concussion and Geno's knee where he lead a lacking team to the top of the conference, only to watch his team give up after his team was up 3-1 and after Crosby said no go. That team had a chance to cement his legacy if only they made it a bit further, (2nd round,/ECF's) along.


Edit: You guys really gloss over the Shero deals/no deals
Up until this past deadline I'd say he's batting 500. About equal ratio to good or bad, and even then everyone hates the Morrow deal.

 

[Crafton]

one could argue MacLean is more experienced than Bylsma. he was Babcock's assistant for eight years in both Anaheim and Detroit - so he was in three cup finals.

it's not that important of a point. Bylsma can do a better job, here's hoping he does.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Shero has made a metric ton of great trades during his tenure here. To suggest otherwise is either ignorant or deliberately obtuse.

Where are all the bad trades outside of the deadline deals that didn't work out last year? Please list them, so I can proceed to dwarf it with a list of his good deals and relieve you of this ridiculous idea.

Shero has made some great moves, but that doesn't make him perfect.

Morrow trade was horrible
Murray trade was bad
Z trade was horrible
Poni didn't workout but didn't give up much
Kovalev didn't workout but didn't give up much
Iggy trade wasn't bad but Shero did basically nothing to make it happen except offer a worse deal than BOS. Iggy chose PIT over BOS.

Then you have:
Doing noting at the TDL in 2012
Going all in for ZP and not having a backup plan
Glass
Extending a 36 y/o Adams for 2 years
Extending DB and co.
Holding onto Meloche for too long only to replace him from w/i
Re-signing a 34 y/o Duper for 4 years could go either way, depending on how he's used
Drafting DP over Fors
Drafting Esposito in the 1st round (trading him doesn't give him a free pass for a bad pick, sorry)
Drafting Dmen almost exclusively in the first 3 rounds
Drafting from NA almost exclusively, many from USHS
Losing Strait for nothing
Never leaving his comfort zone in drafting/FA signings
Not having a capable back-up goalie in 2012
Signing Eaton last year to take time from Des and Bort
Signing numerous vets to take time over young guys

 

[Ugene Magic]

one could argue MacLean is more experienced than Bylsma. he was Babcock's assistant for eight years in both Anaheim and Detroit - so he was in three cup finals.

it's not that important of a point. Bylsma can do a better job, here's hoping he does.

I'd agree to that to an extent. But being a part of it and leading it are two big differences. Babcock was his mentor who intern had Bowman as his. Apples may not fall far from the tree, but MacLean has a lot of work ahead of him, and I don't know if he has the the leader mentality in him. One helluva stache, though. He seems like a little bit of Babcock and a lot of Murray for me. His team has a real good chance at moving forward, and Alfredsson moving on may be the best thing for them moving forward. They got much younger and better.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Shero has made some great moves, but that doesn't make him perfect.

Morrow trade was horrible
Murray trade was bad
Z trade was horrible
Poni didn't workout but didn't give up much
Kovalev didn't workout but didn't give up much
Iggy trade wasn't bad but Shero did basically nothing to make it happen except offer a worse deal than BOS. Iggy chose PIT over BOS.

Then you have:
Doing noting at the TDL in 2012
Going all in for ZP and not having a backup plan
Glass
Extending a 36 y/o Adams for 2 years
Extending DB and co.
Holding onto Meloche for too long only to replace him from w/i
Re-signing a 34 y/o Duper for 4 years could go either way, depending on how he's used
Drafting DP over Fors
Drafting Esposito in the 1st round (trading him doesn't give him a free pass for a bad pick, sorry)
Drafting Dmen almost exclusively in the first 3 rounds
Drafting from NA almost exclusively, many from USHS
Losing Strait for nothing
Never leaving his comfort zone in drafting/FA signings
Not having a capable back-up goalie in 2012
Signing Eaton last year to take time from Des and Bort
Signing numerous vets to take time over young guys

You're counting moves as negatives when we have no idea as to what their outcomes will be. And ignoring previous signings Shero has made that have had a positive impact on the franchise.

Is this list intentionally unfair and presumptuous?

 

[Ogrezilla]

You're counting moves as negatives when we have no idea as to what their outcomes will be. And ignoring previous signings Shero has made that have had a positive impact on the franchise.

Is this list intentionally unfair and presumptuous?

he is just listing negatives, yes. And yes, he is using unknowns as negatives. But don't mention potential future trades as positives because we can't predict the future.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You're counting moves as negatives when we have no idea as to what their outcomes will be. And ignoring previous signings Shero has made that have had a positive impact on the franchise.

Is this list intentionally unfair and presumptuous?

So it's ok to assume that Shero is gonna turn a PMD into another top 6 forward, but it's not ok to assume that signing a 36 y/o Adams for 2 years will be a bad move?

Got it.

And only 4 of that list are based on the future, what about the 18 other things I said?

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

he is just listing negatives, yes. And yes, he is using unknowns as negatives. But don't mention potential future trades as positives because we can't predict the future.

I don't see anything about potential future trades, but listing Shero's drafting strategy as a negative when we have yet to see the results is a bit unfair. Really, when the worst signings you can come up with are two 4th liners and Pascal Dupuis, who has done nothing but good things, it seems like you're digging for something to complain about.