Value of: David Savard to Toronto

[Kamiccolo]

I only see two players discussed in trades in this thread. Zaitsev and Kadri. Kadri for Savard seems pretty even.

We value Kadri pretty highly even if he struggles to put up points playing 3rd wheel to the other guys. Savard is a #4 but ideally bottom pairing RD. We do not need depth or bottem end guys. The need is for someone for Rielly, or if not, someone who can carry a 2nd pairing (like Gardiner) as a high end #3.

If they get a guy for Rielly, Dermott becomes the 2nd pair guy. If they get the high end #3, Dermott becomes the partner for Rielly.

Savard doesn't solve any of those problems. Not to mention that a lot of the issues are overblown. Leafs have only lost 1 game this year after leading after 2 periods, and their defensive numbers (Shots against, goals against, goal differential) were damn near identical to Tampa Bay (within 1-2) before they got nailed with a ton of injuries on D within the last month. They have been forced to play some questionable guys (they lost 5 LD between the bottom 4 in the NHL and top 4 on the Marlies plus their NHL depth option Maricin got the flu).

So yeah, Leafs just need to be patient IMO with the defense. Good stuff coming from the Marlies and lots of good top 4 D on the roster. Really only 1 weakness which is an upgrade on the top pair.

 

[Cbus1979]

I cant imgine Columbus trading their underrated big right d,he is outstanding on the penalty kill,and a workhorse..for a forward.Especially with ryan murrays injury history.

 

[93gilmour93]

Especially given the names being thrown around as the return.

Right. Not a chance from the Leafs

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Just wait for Lil and Sandin.

It's going to be glaringly obvious we need a RH (or atleast right sided) Dman for Mo... preferably with size and shutdown ability.


Unpopular opinion:
I wonder if we can move Muzzin in the off-season with Dermott/Sandin/Rosen showing left side (top4) potential?

 

[Viqsi]

Savard is a #4 but ideally bottom pairing RD.

My jaw literally dropped on reading this absurd nonsense. The only place he's "ideally bottom pairing" is Team Canada. That's like referring to Kadri as "a #3C but ideally on the fourth line".

 

[Monk]

We value Kadri pretty highly even if he struggles to put up points playing 3rd wheel to the other guys. Savard is a #4 but ideally bottom pairing RD. We do not need depth or bottem end guys. The need is for someone for Rielly, or if not, someone who can carry a 2nd pairing (like Gardiner) as a high end #3.

If they get a guy for Rielly, Dermott becomes the 2nd pair guy. If they get the high end #3, Dermott becomes the partner for Rielly.

Savard doesn't solve any of those problems. Not to mention that a lot of the issues are overblown. Leafs have only lost 1 game this year after leading after 2 periods, and their defensive numbers (Shots against, goals against, goal differential) were damn near identical to Tampa Bay (within 1-2) before they got nailed with a ton of injuries on D within the last month. They have been forced to play some questionable guys (they lost 5 LD between the bottom 4 in the NHL and top 4 on the Marlies plus their NHL depth option Maricin got the flu).

So yeah, Leafs just need to be patient IMO with the defense. Good stuff coming from the Marlies and lots of good top 4 D on the roster. Really only 1 weakness which is an upgrade on the top pair.

I view Savard as a critical piece to the CBJ defense (not depth, not bottom pairing). He's rarely injured, he's paid the right amount of money, can step into a more offensive role if needed, can definitely play #3 guy minutes at minimum, etc. Every good hockey team needs a Savard. If that doesn't fill a need for Toronto, that's fine, but I think you're selling Savard short. I have no interest in trading Savard.

 

[Leafs87]

Do you mean Zaitsev? IF so, then Leafs will need to add decent assets to make this worthwhile for CBJ.

Zaitsev deserves another year before being moved as a cap dump. He was injured last year missed a significant amount of games and never came back up to speed. He is not just starting to slowly look like the Zaitsev that was given that contract. Ideally Savard would be Riellys partner if acquired and we’d have Rielly and Savard then Muzzin and Zaitsev with the outside shot of Sandin and Lil being the bottom pairing

 

[Viqsi]

I cant imgine Columbus trading their underrated big right d,he is outstanding on the penalty kill,and a workhorse..for a forward.Especially with ryan murrays injury history.

If we're unable to keep Duchene, it would make sense to reinforce our center depth. Kadri's the C equivalent of Savard - a very good all-around guy, not top-responsibility material but excellent for the next level below that, who gets criminally underrated because all that's ever remembered about him is "well his development isn't going quite as expected" type stuff from half a decade ago.

I suspect Savard could do just fine opposite Rielly (he's a fairly reliable player, and Rielly honest to G-d really is that good), but it'd make sense if Toronto wants to aim higher.

 

[Kamiccolo]

My jaw literally dropped on reading this absurd nonsense. The only place he's "ideally bottom pairing" is Team Canada. That's like referring to Kadri as "a #3C but ideally on the fourth line".

Well what is he in your books?

 

[Viqsi]

Well what is he in your books?

High-end second-pairing guy. Has filled in on the top pairing but that's not really his forte - he's more of the old-fashioned "find a consistent working formula and stick to it" class of blueliner. Which is why I think he'd do fine alongside a wizard like Rielly. Wouldn't be my first choice of guys for that spot, true, but most of my first choices aren't actually available for anything sane.

 

[Kamiccolo]

High-end second-pairing guy. Has filled in on the top pairing but that's not really his forte - he's more of the old-fashioned "find a consistent working formula and stick to it" class of blueliner. Which is why I think he'd do fine alongside a wizard like Rielly. Wouldn't be my first choice of guys for that spot, true, but most of my first choices aren't actually available for anything sane.

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree... but that is normal with defense. Very hard to evaluate how a D will fit into your team.. An example being your description basically described Zaitsev and you know the rep he gets and yet you put him with Muzzin and suddenly he looks like a respectable D again.

So all I can do is look at the tools, and I see someone who, kind of just plays a safe game. The issue is that these players are highly impacted by their partners and usage. He's a guy who you can roll the lines with, but would you ever hard match him against the top lines in the playoffs? I personally don't think so. I also don't think he has the offense to be used as a weapon either.

His offensive stat line is just unimpressive and I don't think he is good enough defensively to make up for it. I think he is the exact type of D the game is leaving behind. He plays harder minutes sure but just handles them. He doesn't dominate them and doesn't get caved.

When I watch him, I never come away impressed or amazed. He's just another D.

And plus after Leaf fans were told how good Muzzin was and all this he comes onto the team and isn't even the 2nd best D. It just shows that there is bias in evaluation and that Toronto has a pretty strong D core. They just get used differently than other teams. Toronto wants the D to play fast and just get the puck up the ice rather than transition as a unit like many other teams, and it leads to a lot of odd man rushes each way, which muddies the defensive stats.

 

[Golden Puppers]

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree... but that is normal with defense. Very hard to evaluate how a D will fit into your team.. An example being your description basically described Zaitsev and you know the rep he gets and yet you put him with Muzzin and suddenly he looks like a respectable D again.

So all I can do is look at the tools, and I see someone who, kind of just plays a safe game. The issue is that these players are highly impacted by their partners and usage. He's a guy who you can roll the lines with, but would you ever hard match him against the top lines in the playoffs? I personally don't think so. I also don't think he has the offense to be used as a weapon either.

His offensive stat line is just unimpressive and I don't think he is good enough defensively to make up for it. I think he is the exact type of D the game is leaving behind. He plays harder minutes sure but just handles them. He doesn't dominate them and doesn't get caved.

When I watch him, I never come away impressed or amazed. He's just another D.

And plus after Leaf fans were told how good Muzzin was and all this he comes onto the team and isn't even the 2nd best D. It just shows that there is bias in evaluation and that Toronto has a pretty strong D core. They just get used differently than other teams. Toronto wants the D to play fast and just get the puck up the ice rather than transition as a unit like many other teams, and it leads to a lot of odd man rushes each way, which muddies the defensive stats.

"doesn't get enough points, his defense doesn't make up for it" What does that even mean?

He's not a big point getter, sure. He impacts goals and shot quality. His GF% and Expected GF% are the highest of any CBJ dman over the past 3 seasons.

Corsica | Skater Stats

 

[Ctrain2k]

Lol... coming from an Oilers fan... rich.

I’m well aware of Edmonton’s forward problems, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say there’s obviously a huge difference in value between Tavares and Kadri.

 

[RantanenRavin]

In the same world that Matthews is equal to McDavid?
I'd say McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH are just as good a top three as Matthews, Marner and Tavares.

Seguin, Benn and Radulov.
Scheifele, Wheeler and Connor.
Kucherov, Stamkos and Point.
Crosby, Malkin and Kessell.
Ovechkin, Backstrom and Kuznetsov.
Bergeron, Pastrnak and Marchand.
MacKinnon, Rantanen and Landeskog.

I think they're all pretty comparable as a group. If you want to break it down and compare individual players you go right ahead, but as groups it's all pretty close.

Look, I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with you about this, but had you taken the time to reference my original post, you would see that 4 of your 7 examples, I had already named.

And your right, I shouldn't have worded my last comment the way I did. I'm not saying that anyone is equal to anyone else. I should have said that when it comes down to the 3rd top forward on any team, not many teams have a player of Marners capacity in the 3 slot. Marner, in my opinion, is in a far different class than RNH, Connor, Radulov and Kuznetsov. Ask the fans of any of those 4 teams, and I can all but guarantee you that they would trade their player straight up for Marner, without hesitation. Fair enough?

 

[TorontoTrades]

In the same world that Matthews is equal to McDavid?
I'd say McDavid, Draisaitl and RNH are just as good a top three as Matthews, Marner and Tavares.

Seguin, Benn and Radulov.
Scheifele, Wheeler and Connor.
Kucherov, Stamkos and Point.
Crosby, Malkin and Kessell.
Ovechkin, Backstrom and Kuznetsov.
Bergeron, Pastrnak and Marchand.
MacKinnon, Rantanen and Landeskog.

I think they're all pretty comparable as a group. If you want to break it down and compare individual players you go right ahead, but as groups it's all pretty close.

Not trying to be biased but I think outside of Tampa the edge in all those match ups goes to Toronto.

But I agree that many of those are close and not significantly different to where there is a large advantage.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

If we're unable to keep Duchene, it would make sense to reinforce our center depth. Kadri's the C equivalent of Savard - a very good all-around guy, not top-responsibility material but excellent for the next level below that, who gets criminally underrated because all that's ever remembered about him is "well his development isn't going quite as expected" type stuff from half a decade ago.

I suspect Savard could do just fine opposite Rielly (he's a fairly reliable player, and Rielly honest to G-d really is that good), but it'd make sense if Toronto wants to aim higher.

he would be your best C if matty left. the guy has back to back 30 goal seasons playing second line c with scrubs

 

[ole ole]

While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, I disagree with yours wholeheartedly. In what world are Nugent-Hopkins and Marner equal?

In what world are Matthews and McDavid equal?