Dave Poulin

[JianYang]

With carbonneau making the hall of fame, I started thinking about other forwards who had a great 2 way reputation at the time, and a name that popped into my head was poulin.

Here's a guy who scored 394 points in 467 games with the flyers. He got himself a selke, while being a 2 time all star, and ended up being one of the greatest shorthanded goal scorers of all time.

Now, I'm not an expert of his time, but all of this happened in the first 6 seasons of his career, and he only ended up playing around 700 games overall.

I can only guess that based on his lack of games played after leaving Philly, that he developed some major physical issues, and he was also on the wrong side of 30 by that time due to a relatively late start to his nhl career.

So you think if he had started his career earlier, and perhaps had more injury luck, that he would have solidified his name as one of the better 2 way centers in the realm of guys like gainey?

I guess people who lived through 80s hockey can speak to the player he was, and what could have been.

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[Canadiens1958]

Early sports hernia(groin) injury in 1991, impacted his speed and quickness. Never played major JR, NCAA ages 20-23.

 

[seventieslord]

I think in just about every respect, Poulin's career makes him a poor man's Carbonneau:

- He got such a late start to his career, and was finished by age 36, that he ended up with just 55% as many career games played (55% as many playoff games, too)
- He was excellent defensively, but his performance and reputation earned him peak vote results of 1-2-7-7-8 (to Carbo's 1-1-1-2-2-3-4-4-5)
- He never won a cup, but was in 3 finals, and advanced 7 times in 13 playoffs (Carbo won three, was in 5 finals, and advanced 13 times in 17 playoffs)
- His offensive resume looks a lot better on the surface (since Carbo played 594 more games to get just 133 more points) but a deeper look shows the edge is not significant: he was in his prime the moment he entered the NHL full-time at age 25, and was immediately Sittler or Clarke's LW (not sure which) before becoming Philly's #1 center between Kerr and Propp for three seasons (possibly just two, not sure about 86-87). He also received PP time that Carbo did not. Carbo's career scoring average was dragged down by his age 22-24 and 37-39 seasons, higher proportions in the DPE, and lack of PP opportunities. At ES from age 23-29, he averaged 0.58 PPG to Poulin's 0.71, but they collaborated on their points with teammates who averaged 0.49 and 0.66 PPG, respectively. Both participated in 88% of ESG that their teams scored with them on the ice. So I'm not convinced that Poulin's seemingly better offensive results came down to anything more than team situation and opportunity.

 

[Hoser]

There are many great defensive forwards that just don't have the accolades (Selke trophies) and team success to ever get them into the Hall of Fame and—fortunately for him—Guy Carbonneau had just enough.

I could list lots of great defensive forwards who'll likely never get a sniff: Jere Lehtinen, John Madden, Bobby Holik, Don Luce, Don Marcotte, Eddie Westfall, Craig Ramsay, Steve Kasper, Brian Skrudland, Joel Otto, hell even Carbo's linemate Mike Keane. Not saying any of these other players 'deserve' to be in the HHoF (although I'd make a strong argument for Lehtinen), but they were great in their times.

 

[seventieslord]

There are many great defensive forwards that just don't have the accolades (Selke trophies) and team success to ever get them into the Hall of Fame and—fortunately for him—Guy Carbonneau had just enough.

I could list lots of great defensive forwards who'll likely never get a sniff: Jere Lehtinen, John Madden, Bobby Holik, Don Luce, Don Marcotte, Eddie Westfall, Craig Ramsay, Steve Kasper, Brian Skrudland, Joel Otto, hell even Carbo's linemate Mike Keane. Not saying any of these other players 'deserve' to be in the HHoF (although I'd make a strong argument for Lehtinen), but they were great in their times.

Some of those are not like the others.

Lehtinen and Ramsay, I would not bet my house on them never being inducted.

Madden, Holik, Luce, Marcotte, Westfall, Kasper, Skrudland, Otto and Keane... thanks for coming out (by comparison, anyway).

 

[Hoser]

Like I said, "accolades and team success".

 

[tony d]

One of the better defensive forwards of his era. Had a good career but I very much doubt he gets to the Hall of Fame as an inductee.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think if we presume that gainey opened the door, very belatedly, for carbonneau, then i think the list of guys for whom carbonneau now opens the door is pretty small. claude provost, ramsay, tikkanen, lehtinen, that's it. i say that assuming bergeron is no brainer with or without carbonneau's induction.

the list of HOVG guys who get there on defense probably goes like this: marcotte and westfall, don luce, doug jarvis, poulin, otto, holik, draper, peca, madden. ryan kesler probably belongs on this list. a very very outside argument that peca belongs on the above list with lehtinen, but realistically he doesn't have the team success to hang with those guys. below that group i'd put someone like steve kasper, who is probably at the top of a heap of defensive guys that includes skrudland, gaetan duchesne and bengt-ake gustafsson, dirk graham, craig mactavish, and from this era someone like alex burrows.

whereas i think you could say dick duff opened the door for strong two-way intangibles guys, elite role players. that list, i would say, includes a lot more names but a few off the top of my head would be goring, tonelli, ken linseman, claude lemieux. i can't really think of a guy on that level today, but the HOVG level of that kind of player would be dale hunter, or more recently someone like langenbrunner or patrick sharp, and the lower tier of that kind of player would be mike keane.

 

[MS]

Peak 1983-87 Poulin was probably better than Carbonneau at the time but unfortunately his peak was really only those 4 years. Didn't get to the NHL until age 25 and then age and injuries dragged him down after age 29.

If he had 10 years at that level instead of 4 you maybe have a HHOF argument.

 

[Big Phil]

I like Carbonneau, I always did, but the problem with his induction is that it starts discussions like this that may have normally been just ceremonial before hand. I don't think Poulin is one of those defensive forwards on the outside with a shot at getting in but guys like Lehtinen and maybe Peca all of the sudden seem to be, and with all due respect they shouldn't be. And neither should Poulin.

 

[wetcoast]

I like Carbonneau, I always did, but the problem with his induction is that it starts discussions like this that may have normally been just ceremonial before hand. I don't think Poulin is one of those defensive forwards on the outside with a shot at getting in but guys like Lehtinen and maybe Peca all of the sudden seem to be, and with all due respect they shouldn't be. And neither should Poulin.

I agree with what you are saying here but this really opens up Pandora's box.

Pretty sure we are going to a see a pretty decent player who absolutely shoots lights out in the shoot out and wins games for his teams.

Does that difference really tip him into the HHOF?

The #1 question I always ask of any player in the HHOF or player eligible is "what is he played for another team how would he be viewed as a player?"

So basically if Carbs has the exact same resume playing for St Louis does he get into the HHOF with no SC rings?

The answer is hell no and people wouldn't even stop to consider it.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Having watched Poulin during his prime years in Philadelphia, I can say he was a player every team in the league would want. In addition to being a premier penalty killer and an excellent defensive center, Poulin was tough, as evidenced by playing the 1987 playoffs with a flak jacket. Poulin, in my book, is the second best captain in Flyers history behind Clarke. He was a leader who had the respect of his teammates and possessed a high hockey IQ. Did Poulin benefit from centering Propp and Kerr. Yes. Still, Poulin was not a black hole on offense and scored some timely goals. Without Poulin, the Flyers don't advance to two Stanley Cup Finals in the mid 80's.