Player Discussion Darnell Nurse is a #1 dman

[guymez]

I mean that's one very dry way of looking at it.

The other way is, if you're down a goal in the playoffs, you can't play the line at all

I hear what you're saying.
I think though when you are down a goal its important to rest the top 2 lines and not give anything up.
If the 4th line can maintain possession or keep the opposing team in their zone then that is making a major (and often overlooked) contribution.
Anything the 4th line can do beyond that is gravy.

 

[K1984]

He would be a solid #2 if he didn't break the puck out worse than Steve Staois. It's a turnover every time. Just reverses it around to the other team or panic chips it off the boards to a pinching opponent. Granted, our whole d-core pretty much does that so it might be coaching, but you expect more from him.

To this point Nurse blindly rimming it around the wall in the D zone is another cancerous habit he needs to stop. That one is almost as bad as the ice slide.

 

[guymez]

I don't even like Nurse at 6 million

Yeah...thats interesting for me.
If Ekholm is the benchmark for value at $6M then Nurse obviously isnt worth that.
Unfortunately the salary structure in the NHL is such that players are almost always getting raises whether they deserve it or not. I the player happens to have what might be considered an outlier season that seems to be enough to justify a big raise. Holland clearly f**ked up in terms of how he handled the Nurse situation.
Interesting that both Ekholm and Nurse (IIRC) signed their long term deals at almost the same time.
That really does seperate how efficiently Managment operates in terms of the cap when you compare Nashville and Edmonton.

 

[nally]

Yeah...thats interesting for me.
If Ekholm is the benchmark for value at $6M then Nurse obviously isnt worth that.
Unfortunately the salary structure in the NHL is such that players are almost always getting raises whether they deserve it or not. I the player happens to have what might be considered an outlier season that seems to be enough to justify a big raise. Holland clearly f**ked up in terms of how he handled the Nurse situation.
Interesting that both Ekholm and Nurse (IIRC) signed their long term deals at almost the same time.
That really does seperate how efficiently Managment operates in terms of the cap when you compare Nashville and Edmonton.

No one (most) wants to sign here. When they do, its because they are getting at LEAST a million or more a year to do so. We should be trading for all of our players. Though tough to find players worthy of trading for on long term deals that do not have a no-trade clause. We absolutely lucked out with Ekholm.

 

[guymez]

No one wants to sign here. When they do, its because they are getting at LEAST a million or more a year to do so. We should be trading for all of our players. Though tough to find players worthy of trading for on long term deals that do not have a no-trade clause. We absolutely lucked out with Ekholm.

That may have been true to an extent prior to the McDavid's arrival but that clearly isnt the case anymore.
I lay all of this at the feet of Holland.

 

[nally]

That may have been true to an extent prior to the McDavid's arrival but that clearly isnt the case anymore.
I lay all of this at the feet of Holland.

You replied before I edited and added (most) to All people don't want to sign here.

 

[The Nuge]

Yeah...thats interesting for me.
If Ekholm is the benchmark for value at $6M then Nurse obviously isnt worth that.
Unfortunately the salary structure in the NHL is such that players are almost always getting raises whether they deserve it or not. I the player happens to have what might be considered an outlier season that seems to be enough to justify a big raise. Holland clearly f**ked up in terms of how he handled the Nurse situation.
Interesting that both Ekholm and Nurse (IIRC) signed their long term deals at almost the same time.
That really does seperate how efficiently Managment operates in terms of the cap when you compare Nashville and Edmonton.

Ekholm isn’t a 6 million dollar dman though. He makes 6.25, and he’s clearly underpaid, so it’s not really a fair comparison. IMO, both are worth in the 8 million range. They’re pretty elite dmen at even strength. They’re actually tied for 13th in even strength scoring by dmen since 18/19, ahead of Dahlin, Heiskanen, Weegar, Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Jones, etc.

 

[guymez]

Ekholm isn’t a 6 million dollar dman though. He makes 6.25, and he’s clearly underpaid, so it’s not really a fair comparison. IMO, both are worth in the 8 million range. They’re pretty elite dmen at even strength. They’re actually tied for 13th in even strength scoring by dmen since 18/19, ahead of Dahlin, Heiskanen, Weegar, Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Jones, etc.

The point being that Nashville signed Ekholm for just over $6M despite him possibly being worth more.
I believe (could be off with this) that Poille even signed Ekholm in his UFA season.
Amazing work.
Holland on the other hand signed Nurse to his extension even though he would have been a RFA when his existing contract ended. Just going by memory here so please do correct me if that is incorrect. Even if Nurse would have been a UFA how is it that Poille can do such good work and Hollands by contrast is underwhelming to say the least.
I think that one of the issues at play here was that due to the lack of depth of the Oilers blueline there was a need to maintain some continuity by retaining Nurse for as long as possible.
Holland also chose to negotiate after what appears to be an outlier season by Nurse.
Nurse had the leverage and Holland didnt have the balls to actually negotiate properly with him.
So now as a result of that the team appears to be stuck with an extremely underwhelming player that comes with a extremely problematic contract until 2030.
Part of Hollands job is to be able to gauge the value of a player moving forward. Safe to say that Holland failed on that point. So some very poor work on Hollands part especially considering the importance of these years for this team.
He then goes and compunds that poor effort by signing Campbell.
Then he bitches about how hard it is to grind teams.
Yeah no shit Kenny...when you have no leverage it is hard to grind teams. If you at least provided some cap space for yourself then you wouldnt be up against a wall trying to grind teams that know full well you have little to no wiggle room.
Holland did make an excellent trade for Ekholm but then at the same time he shoots himself in the foot by signing Campbell. Add that to the $3M overpay to Nurse and its a huge problem for this team.
Time for him to go.

 

[CrazyJoeDavola]

To this point Nurse blindly rimming it around the wall in the D zone is another cancerous habit he needs to stop. That one is almost as bad as the ice slide.

Agreed, but this is also a systemic thing. Outside of the first two weeks when knobby joined and we were actively making those short middle passes to support forwards, the team has deliberately shifted back to the dave manson chip it off the boards panic kris russell rim around to the other team breakout. I'm not sure why we keep doing it - we can't h andle any pressure from any team that decides to press us hard (even bottom feeders). It's the biggest thing holding this team back and it's seem to have hugely regressed as the season unfolds.

 

[K1984]

Agreed, but this is also a systemic thing. Outside of the first two weeks when knobby joined and we were actively making those short middle passes to support forwards, the team has deliberately shifted back to the dave manson chip it off the boards panic kris russell rim around to the other team breakout. I'm not sure why we keep doing it - we can't h andle any pressure from any team that decides to press us hard (even bottom feeders). It's the biggest thing holding this team back and it's seem to have hugely regressed as the season unfolds.

I'm seeing it as more of the classic panic move from our D men that have problems with pressure than a system thing. Nurse and Ceci are the poster boys of this play far and beyond anyone else. The walls are where we have comfort, and we have a bad habit of panic throwing it up them when our D men aren't feeling like they have time.

 

[Sra1974]

The point being that Nashville signed Ekholm for just over $6M despite him possibly being worth more.
I believe (could be off with this) that Poille even signed Ekholm in his UFA season.
Amazing work.
Holland on the other hand signed Nurse to his extension even though he would have been a RFA when his existing contract ended. Just going by memory here so please do correct me if that is incorrect. Even if Nurse would have been a UFA how is it that Poille can do such good work and Hollands by contrast is underwhelming to say the least.
I think that one of the issues at play here was that due to the lack of depth of the Oilers blueline there was a need to maintain some continuity by retaining Nurse for as long as possible.
Holland also chose to negotiate after what appears to be an outlier season by Nurse.
Nurse had the leverage and Holland didnt have the balls to actually negotiate properly with him.
So now as a result of that the team appears to be stuck with an extremely underwhelming player that comes with a extremely problematic contract until 2030.
Part of Hollands job is to be able to gauge the value of a player moving forward. Safe to say that Holland failed on that point. So some very poor work on Hollands part especially considering the importance of these years for this team.
He then goes and compunds that poor effort by signing Campbell.
Then he bitches about how hard it is to grind teams.
Yeah no shit Kenny...when you have no leverage it is hard to grind teams. If you at least provided some cap space for yourself then you wouldnt be up against a wall trying to grind teams that know full well you have little to no wiggle room.
Holland did make an excellent trade for Ekholm but then at the same time he shoots himself in the foot by signing Campbell. Add that to the $3M overpay to Nurse and its a huge problem for this team.
Time for him to go.

It’s a bad signing but it’s not the players fault, it’s the GM. Elkholm got a smaller contract because of where he was in the incredible defence depth in Nashville and where he sat in it. Nurse, in part, got that contract because at the time he was the top of the depth chart. Unfortunately he also got signed by the team after the whacky COVID season and then has never gotten better.

But he’s not going anywhere, there’s just zero scenario I can think of that would cause that to happen. He is a 2 guy in his best mode, and a 4 guy too often. Nobody is taking that contract and even if they did they are sending a bad contract back and you are still hunting for a $6-7mm replacement player. You aren’t further ahead so better figure out how to coach him and put him a spot to succeed.

 

[FlameChampion]

He just hasn’t had a great season. He did play pretty well after the coaching change but he’s pretty average for many months.

He was probably playing like a #2 after the coaching change but he’s more like a #3/4 currently.

Hopefully he can pick it up in the playoffs but every mistake is amplified in the playoffs and making good decisions isn’t his strong suit.

I think hes a bit lucky in this market that Ceci is the scapegoat of the pairing. Don’t get me wrong he has his faults, but its just as much on Nurse.

Everyone knows he’s overpaid but the fact that you can’t really count on him is equally bad. He’s just not consistent. In any given week, you will get games from A to D with him.

 

[guymez]

It’s a bad signing but it’s not the players fault, it’s the GM. Elkholm got a smaller contract because of where he was in the incredible defence depth in Nashville and where he sat in it. Nurse, in part, got that contract because at the time he was the top of the depth chart. Unfortunately he also got signed by the team after the whacky COVID season and then has never gotten better.

But he’s not going anywhere, there’s just zero scenario I can think of that would cause that to happen. He is a 2 guy in his best mode, and a 4 guy too often. Nobody is taking that contract and even if they did they are sending a bad contract back and you are still hunting for a $6-7mm replacement player. You aren’t further ahead so better figure out how to coach him and put him a spot to succeed.

100%.
I dont blame Darnell at all for the contract...just his play on the ice.

Its a lot tougher to build a winner with a 2nd pairing dman that makes over $9M.
In the right situation he is tradeable though.

 

[Sra1974]

100%.
I dont blame Darnell at all for the contract...just his play on the ice.

Its a lot tougher to build a winner with a 2nd pairing dman that makes over $9M.
In the right situation he is tradeable though.

I’d love to hear how you think it might be done. I’m not trying to challenge you, genuinely curious in what you think getting rid of him looks like and what your replacement looks like including the budget. I just honestly can’t think of a scenario it occurs in the next couple of seasons.

 

[FlameChampion]

I’d love to hear how you think it might be done. I’m not trying to challenge you, genuinely curious in what you think getting rid of him looks like and what your replacement looks like including the budget. I just honestly can’t think of a scenario it occurs in the next couple of seasons.

The only way I see it is if the Oilers go on a long run (3+ rounds) and Nurse plays well and starts to get media spotlight. Probably in particular if hes physical because some GM’s probably love that. Thats the only way he’s probably tradeable for assets anyway.

 

[guymez]

I’d love to hear how you think it might be done. I’m not trying to challenge you, genuinely curious in what you think getting rid of him looks like and what your replacement looks like including the budget. I just honestly can’t think of a scenario it occurs in the next couple of seasons.

I just think that there have been a number of so called unmovable contracts over the years and trades do happen. Nurse is just one of many bad contracts in the NHL.

There are also a few teams that are barley above the cap floor so they are in a better position to take on a large contract. Chicago, Buffalo and Anaheim are 3 teams that are almost $10M below the cap ceiling. The other thing is the Oilers could always retain some money as well.

Sometimes a team will trade one inflated contract for another. The thinking might be that if they are going to have a bad contract on their cap then it might as well be a player that fills a position of need.
Perhaps the Oilers are in that boat with Nurse already. Its a bad contract but at least its for a dman which is a position of need for this team.

I mean it has to work for the Oilers obviously and if you're saying that they are better off keeping Nurse then I think that there is definitely an argument for that.
So I get where you are coming from for sure.

Honestly its likely (more than anything) just wishful thinking on my part.
Admittedly my frustration over the Nurse situation can sometimes spill out into my posts.

EDIT: I just checked and the projected $4M increase in the cap for the 2024/25 season helps absorb the Nurse contract a bit but then again the Draisaitl situation comes to a head as well.. Also there is still the Jack Campbell contract.

 

[Kolja]

If your bad on the PK and don't really play on the PP, are you still a no.1 d-man?

Nurse should be traded, whatever it takes.

David Staples goes more in depth in the following article: You will never guess the Edmonton Oilers penalty kill aces for 2023-24

Not as cherrypicky and still confirms Nurses shortcommings.

 

[McDNicks17]

David Staples goes more in depth in the following article: You will never guess the Edmonton Oilers penalty kill aces for 2023-24

Not as cherrypicky and still confirms Nurses shortcommings.

It more so shows the struggles of the #1 unit to me. RNH and Brown are getting cooked in both categories too.

That's another thing that always gets overlooked for PK numbers. The 1st unit often has "worse" numbers because they're actually playing 1st PP units the majority of the time. Like obviously a player is going to make more mistakes against McDavid than Ryan McLeod.

You see it all the time where a 2nd unit guy moves up and doesn't do well. Look at Desharnais, for example. He had solid numbers and then moved up to the #1 unit for a bit where his GA/60 doubled and now he's leading the team in mistakes leading to goals according to that article.

 

[Ninety7]

It more so shows the struggles of the #1 unit to me. RNH and Brown are getting cooked in both categories too.

That's another thing that always gets overlooked for PK numbers. The 1st unit often has "worse" numbers because they're actually playing 1st PP units the majority of the time. Like obviously a player is going to make more mistakes against McDavid than Ryan McLeod.

You see it all the time where a 2nd unit guy moves up and doesn't do well. Look at Desharnais, for example. He had solid numbers and then moved up to the #1 unit for a bit where his GA/60 doubled and now he's leading the team in mistakes leading to goals according to that article.

Nurse is not supposed to be a 2nd unit guy though.

If the barometer for success for darnell needs to be measured by comparing how well a 7th dman does when he’s put in the same position, then I think it’s fair to start asking questions.

The argument of “he’s playing harder competition, he’s going to make mistakes”. While true, you also then have to start to wonder if the player is suitable in that position, when the player is often at guilt for the making the same mistakes he’s been making for years.

We would never use that argument for Leon or McDavid. We expect them to preform night in and night out against top pairing D men. Why shouldn’t it be the same for the second highest paid player on our team?

 

[CupofOil]

No one (most) wants to sign here. When they do, its because they are getting at LEAST a million or more a year to do so. We should be trading for all of our players. Though tough to find players worthy of trading for on long term deals that do not have a no-trade clause. We absolutely lucked out with Ekholm.

That's not true, at all.

There are plenty of players that have Edmonton on their no trade list as well as most of Canada (mostly American players I'm sure) but the Oilers haven't had a problem signing guys and re-signing their guys and, in fact, I don't recall too many that actively wanted out outside of Prongergate and the DoD in general with guys like Visnovsky, Souray etc.

The Oilers have had issues icing complete rosters because of asset and cap mismanagement and poor drafting not because it's Edmonton and it's hard to attract players.

 

[CupofOil]

He just hasn’t had a great season. He did play pretty well after the coaching change but he’s pretty average for many months.

He was probably playing like a #2 after the coaching change but he’s more like a #3/4 currently.

Hopefully he can pick it up in the playoffs but every mistake is amplified in the playoffs and making good decisions isn’t his strong suit.

I think hes a bit lucky in this market that Ceci is the scapegoat of the pairing. Don’t get me wrong he has his faults, but its just as much on Nurse.

Everyone knows he’s overpaid but the fact that you can’t really count on him is equally bad. He’s just not consistent. In any given week, you will get games from A to D with him.

It's arguably his worst season as a pro outside of the very early years. Nurse has always been mistake prone but I feel like his defense has regressed this season and the offense isn't as dynamic. If THIS is the Nurse we're getting for the rest of the contract, it's going to be a rough ROUGH time. Imagine how good this team would be if they didn't have the Nurse contract on the books or if he was paid properly?

Holland really narrowed their room for error in terms of Cup contention with that contract and the Campbell one as well but at least the Campbell one was sort of understandable because they needed a goalie and that was the going rate for proven, decent starting goalies The Nurse contract could have been handled so differently in a multitude of ways.

 

[K1984]

He just hasn’t had a great season. He did play pretty well after the coaching change but he’s pretty average for many months.

He was probably playing like a #2 after the coaching change but he’s more like a #3/4 currently.

Hopefully he can pick it up in the playoffs but every mistake is amplified in the playoffs and making good decisions isn’t his strong suit.

I think hes a bit lucky in this market that Ceci is the scapegoat of the pairing. Don’t get me wrong he has his faults, but its just as much on Nurse.

Everyone knows he’s overpaid but the fact that you can’t really count on him is equally bad. He’s just not consistent. In any given week, you will get games from A to D with him.

This is the problem. There shouldn't be games anymore where he's on the ice for 4 GA's with him being a major part of all 4.

I don't even need an A game from him, but instead of the massive swings between his A and D games, I'd love if he could just settle in playing at a steady B or even C+ level. We can win when he's B or C+, but he can single handedly cost us games when he's at a D.

 

[guymez]

It's arguably his worst season as a pro outside of the very early years. Nurse has always been mistake prone but I feel like his defense has regressed this season and the offense isn't as dynamic. If THIS is the Nurse we're getting for the rest of the contract, it's going to be a rough ROUGH time. Imagine how good this team would be if they didn't have the Nurse contract on the books or if he was paid properly?

Holland really narrowed their room for error in terms of Cup contention with that contract and the Campbell one as well but at least the Campbell one was sort of understandable because they needed a goalie and that was the going rate for proven, decent starting goalies The Nurse contract could have been handled so differently in a multitude of ways.

I agree except for the part on Campbell.
Holland painted himself into a corner by deferring the goalie problem. He should have made solving that issue a priority and never extended Smith. It was easier for him to not have to deal with getting a goalie and just keep Smith past his best before date.
That extension created the issue whereby Holland had limited options to solve a problem that went on for too long.
Holland could have solved the goalie issue completely by ponying up for the $500K to sign Markstrom....a legit starting goalie.
Instead he ultimately ends up throwing a few extra million at Nurse and then justifies squeezing Markstrom for $500K.
Really tough to make any sense of Hollands priorities.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

No, no he is not. He was for a special season but he hasn’t been since. If he doesn’t step up in the playoffs you find a way to move him.

 

[Stoneman89]

Please change the thread title to ,"Darnell Nurse being paid like a # 1 defenceman."