Dan Girardi: Part II (All Girardi Talk here pls)
- Thread starter Machinehead
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Machinehead
GoAwayTrouba
Why discuss what really happens on the ice? That takes away from any argument.
Boy, oh boy. I wonder what FenCorwick would say about Beuk. Or about Stevens. Or even a Daneyko. Instead of wondering what does the fox say, it really should be What does Fenwick say? Or better yet. What would Corsi do?
The one thing that CorFenski has made apparent. Clearly Girardi is in the blackmail business. He must have had incriminating photos of both Torts and AV. How else can one possibly explain a ECHL caliber player, playing on the top pairing unit of a top defensive team against the other team' stop players.
Seems like these arguements have been going on forever. Defense first Dmen are often the least appreciated.
When I first became a Ranger fan back in the Dark Ages (thats not the early 2000s), older fans told me stories about how Harry Howell was booed relentlessly, and fans used to chant "hit em with your pocketbook, Harry" (yes, less enlightened times). I only saw him during his last years here.
Yes, the Harry Howell whose number is retired, who won a Norris Trophy, and who is in the HOF.
Granted, Girardi will never win a Norris or be in the HOF, but it may be that he only will be appreciated after he is gone.
When I first became a Ranger fan back in the Dark Ages (thats not the early 2000s), older fans told me stories about how Harry Howell was booed relentlessly, and fans used to chant "hit em with your pocketbook, Harry" (yes, less enlightened times). I only saw him during his last years here.
Yes, the Harry Howell whose number is retired, who won a Norris Trophy, and who is in the HOF.
Granted, Girardi will never win a Norris or be in the HOF, but it may be that he only will be appreciated after he is gone.
silverfish
got perma'd
I am the worlds greatest gift to hockey analysis. Everyone in this thread knows that.
We should all just be able to agree that Girardi is a mid-pairing defenseman being used (wrongly) as a #1 elite shutdown D. This is the case, because the Rangers have no one better to take those minutes. Maybe Stralman could have been that guy, but realistically, he probably wouldn't take all those minutes, but at least alleviate the load on Girardi. This case can be easily made by me, because I believe after acquiring Coburn, TBL used Coburn in more grueling situations than Stralman - this despite being so heavy-handed on the Stralman love fest.
However, the Rangers FO, who have clearly coveted D. Boyle for a while now, believed that D. Boyle would provide more offense from the backend than Stralman. D. Boyle was quite good this season, though sheltered, and did not provide as much offense as the Rangers would've liked. This caused the Rangers FO to spend assets on another guy they've coveted for a while, Mr. Yentil.
Ipso facto, some posters believe, and you could certainly make a case for, the opportunity cost of choosing D. Boyle over Stralman also cost the Rangers Duclair and a few picks.
Some posters go on to further believe that if Stralman had been here all season, the Rangers would have a game tonight. While I do not subscribe to this position, I can see the thought process that it entails. A thought I do subscribe to is that the Rangers lacked the depth on the forward end to replace a top-6 injury to Zuccarello. If Zuccarello is healthy in the playoffs, the Rangers have a game tonight. If my aunt had nuts, she would be my uncle.
5 Wins away from having a summer full of 'we're the best team', and instead, we have a summer full of if if if if if if if if if.
/thread
See you guys in October
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Top quality content, per the usual.
What's "really" happening on the ice is just as bad as what's happening on the spreadsheet. I know you have trouble processing this stuff though as it is made apparent by your absurd opinions on just about every subject surrounding this team. I'd like to watch a game with you sometime and maybe you can break it down for me so I can finally understand where you get these ideas.
have any of the Corsi/Fenwick supporters read: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594205221...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5rq8q8ng3c_b I only ask because I wonder where they think it falls in the spectrum of statistics discussed in that book.
silverfish
got perma'd
This horse is long beaten dead. Your position is crystal clear. But I wonder how your belief in advanced stats addresses (and still has not) these questions:
1. If the advanced metrics show Girardi to be such a poor defenseman, do you have any answer as to how a Stanley Cup winning coach and another coach that is acknowledged to be a pretty good one (having gone to two Cup Finals) BOTH put him out on the top pairing and against the other team's top lines? How is that remotely possible?
2. Let's not even state that the belief that advanced metrics are completely accurate. Let's just state that the belief is that they paint an accurate enough picture. As Dan Boyle's advanced stats are better than Girardi's, is it your belief that every scout, coach and GM in the NHL would unequivocally state that Boyle is better than Girardi?
3. What kind of light would the advance metrics shine on a Jeff Beukaboom? Or a Scott Stevens? Or heck, even a Ken Daneyko?
Answer, not answer up to you.
1. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
2. No. Clearly not every scout is competent as we let Stralman walk, traded Dorsett to sign Glass and picked Dylan McIlrath 10th overall. I believe that Dan Girardi is playing in over his head. He cannot handle top pairing minutes and the stats confirm that. Dan Boyle plays fantastically in the role he currently is in. Boyle can handle heavier minutes while Girardi's should be reduced and given the horrid deployment of our defense by AV this season, I don't see why Girardi gets minutes he can't handle while Boyle is sheltered and performing excellently. Logically you would increase Boyle's workload and decrease Girardi's, no?
3. No one knows and no one will ever know since the league did not track shots then.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
I trust the coaches far, far, far, far, far more than the stats guys. If this was some small sample size thing where it was a first year coach doing stupid ****, fine. I'd be on board saying, "Well, he probably is just not seeing it." However, I'm with TB on this one. Girardi is a very good defenseman and it's recognized around the league.
1. So you have no answer to this or are just refusing to answer.
2. If you answer, then answer the question. Do you believe that most of the scouts, coaches and GMs would choose Boyle over Girardi?
3. So you have no answer or just do not want to share your views. I asked you a question about your belief.
silverfish
got perma'd
07/08 - Present day. Regular season 5v5. D-men who have logged at least 8000 minutes (Girardi is at 10,666).
Third hardest competition faced in the NHL in that timeframe.
5th worst relative zone starts.
He is so bad.
Third hardest competition faced in the NHL in that timeframe.
5th worst relative zone starts.
He is so bad.
silverfish
got perma'd
I hate this argument.
If it was one coach, fine.
But it's three NHL coaches.
It's hockey talking heads, pro analysts.
It's players lining up against Girardi.
You are right, and your logical fallacy is right, in that it should not be the cornerstone of an argument, however, I see no shame in using it as a part of a greater thinkpiece on Girardi. Saying, hey, three coaches, multitude of players, and talking heads who are experts on the sport all believe Girardi to be a good shutdown defenseman - should be taken as such.
We will forever disagree.
What's interesting, though, is that 'burden of proof' is also part of these logical fallacies that are gaining popularity. However, you never seem to bring anything to the table but complete conjecture.
TB asked you three questions, and you deflected on them.
1. Appealing to authority isn't a very good argument. Just because the person is well respected and holds a position of authority doesn't mean he is infallible.
2. No. Girardi would get picked off reputation and age. If they were the same age, on the same contract and just had the seasons that they did, I would expect scouts to pick Dan Boyle.
3. I cannot answer that question. I did not watch those dmen with the intent of analyzing their play and the understanding to do it. They could very well have stats similar to Girardi where they suck at just about everything. I don't think that would be surprising. They could also have stats similar to Mike Sauer where he was a very good shot suppressor and a complete monster in front of his own net. I think that could also be quite likely. The league has and is changing. These metrics were not relied available (at least to the public) then. As the game is heading more toward analytics today, you see dmen like Girardi, who cannot generate or suppress shots, being phased out. The defensive dman is being redefined. Girardi playing 20 years ago would probably be one of the best dmen in the league without a question. In today's NHL players like Girardi are being starting questioned and going forward I think they will be the next dying breed of hockey players.
Raspewtin
Registered User
- May 30, 2013
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The beating horse smiley doesn't do this post justice.
You're allowed to value a coach's opinion on a player
I just don't see what weight it holds in a debate about a player.
07/08 - Present day. Regular season 5v5. D-men who have logged at least 8000 minutes (Girardi is at 10,666).
Third hardest competition faced in the NHL in that timeframe.
5th worst relative zone starts.
He is so bad.
Chara is damn impressive.
Its not that he is bad as much as it is that he is not suited for that role. He is in over his head. He is not performing well playing against top competition and getting unfavorable zone starts. I know AV can do a better job balancing this out. He did it last season.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
The valuation done by actual professionals holds tremendous weight. It's basically the equivalent of a court's view on a law. You and I may read it differently, but the people making the decisions read it a specific way.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
It's not just three of our own coaches. It's opposing coaches who line-match and don't want their guys on the ice with Girardi and McDonagh (see Washington and Pittsburgh).
silverfish
got perma'd
I mean, you don't think there's something to be said about the defender who faces the third hardest competition and 5th worst zone starts in the NHL the past 8 years?
You don't think it helps explain why his shot suppression statistics aren't as sexy as you'd like them to be?
I'll agree with you that Girardi should be seeing easier minutes, but this is the point I'm making.
Eight years of data. Third toughest competition. Fifth toughest zone starts.
That is not the usage Dan Girardi should be having. And I think you need to recognize how ridiculous that usage is.
I'm sure I sound like the adults in the Peanuts to you at this point, but I find it so hard to believe that you don't think these are necessary variables when discussing player performance.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
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