Da Power Play

[madhi19]

No. No ones thinking that.

People see the same strategy that has been a proven failure without any changes. Frankly you could count on one hand how many times they even attempted a different strategy.

I might be more inclined to throw out luck excuses if they were exhausting there options. They aren't even trying to do something different. So its pathetic to hang it on luck.

Do you want to know what the most pathetic about the PP situation? They have a solution and it a pretty obvious one. On the PP they need a big power forward, a player who can, and want to create havoc on the power play. Just freaking use Subban, he play like a power forward half the time anyway you might as well embrace it. Pull Subban from the point where he expected to be, and put him on the wing. Let Gonchar/Petry, Markov take the points, and worry about defence.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

You can read the situation any way you want. My view on it is that randomness accounts for a lot of a team's success or lack thereof and that getting worse 2 years in a row after doing well 1 year is nothing but seeing what you want to see in the noise. See the Rorschach test above.

The giant drop in power play effectiveness from Therrien Year One to Years Two and Three closely tracks to general drop in the number of shots on net they generate (they were 5th in goal scoring and 8th in shots in Y1, 25th in shot generation and 26th in goals over Y2/3). If its attached to a general trend offensive statistics other than goals, the PP's decline is much less likely to be a matter of shear randomness (which you are generally correct about being a major factor on PP effectiveness).

The PP's ineptness over the past two years has a pretty simple general explaination. They are near the bottom of the league at effectiveness at establishing offensive zone pressure, resulting in bottom tier attempts at scoring, resulting in bottom tier effectiveness.

 

[punk255]

PP problem exist for almost for 2 years
Right now the habs have one the worst PP on the roads

With MT problem becoming chronic because he always coming back with the same solution even when thing dont work at all

When thing dont work at all you should take more chance and change your solution because anyway you have nothing to lose

Habs dont have a lot offensive and need to have a better PP
Habs dont have the best offensive players but I think they could have a better PP

I heard Dany Dubé said:
You have one player who can shot but not really a passer (Pach) and you have one player who can pass but cant shot (DD)

So it easier for opponent team to adjust and kill Habs PP

Are you like me and really have enough and swear when you see again and again the same first PP unity with DD-Pach each game and finish without success

 

[HABitual Fan]

The PP's ineptness over the past two years has a pretty simple general explaination. They are near the bottom of the league at effectiveness at establishing offensive zone pressure, resulting in bottom tier attempts at scoring, resulting in bottom tier effectiveness.

I agree but considering you start the PP in the offensive zone and are second for FO% in the league there should be more coming from the 1st unit out there then we are getting. Comparing our PP to other teams you see we are doing exactly the same things, only it appears to be at half speed from the better ones.

 

[BLONG7]

The PP has abeen awful for 2 yrs, yet we have some real PP threats...go figure....

We are being outcoached here, on a game by game basis...

Arrogance, and stubborness reign supreme...it's really unbelievable...but let's Carey on...

Doing the same thing, over and over...and expecting different results...is called idiocy.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Funny. I have a hunch it won't go in Michel's favour. Same way if Sekac is out of the league in 2 years time I don't think many people will say that Therrien saw that the kid was nothing special and will give him credit for it.

I'm curious if you fully thought through this question? I mean, if the PP does well in the playoffs, and LG comes back and says "Therrien adjusted and I give him full credit" wouldn't that also imply that earlier criticism of MT for a poor PP, the very criticism you've been focused on absolving him of, would be valid? I mean, if MT can have a good effect on the PP in the playoffs, it stands to reason that he must have been a part of its poor regular season performance, no?

I have a hunch though, that people would continue to loudly demand MT get his due praise while continuing to free him of any responsibility for previous ineffectiveness.

I'm also curious to hear how you'd react if Sekac turns out to be a serviceable 2nd liner; I don't think many people will say that Therrien misread the kid and that he actually was something special and will not ever criticize MT for it.

 

[punk255]

The PP has abeen awful for 2 yrs, yet we have some real PP threats...go figure....

We are being outcoached here, on a game by game basis...

Arrogance, and stubborness reign supreme...it's really unbelievable...but let's Carey on...

Doing the same thing, over and over...and expecting different results...is called idiocy.

Inside MT mind:
Thank you Carey you give me success and at the same time you give me more freedom to continue my favoritism and stubborness. You hide my mediocrity

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Inside MT mind:
Thank you Carey you give me success and at the same time you give me more freedom to continue my favoritism and stubborness. You hide my mediocrity

Therrien believes he's largely responsible for Subban's Norris, I suspect he thinks his incredibly revolutionary, paradigm-changing defensive system* is responsible for Price's great numbers.










*

 

[punk255]

I'm curious if you fully thought through this question? I mean, if the PP does well in the playoffs, and LG comes back and says "Therrien adjusted and I give him full credit" wouldn't that also imply that earlier criticism of MT for a poor PP, the very criticism you've been focused on absolving him of, would be valid? I mean, if MT can have a good effect on the PP in the playoffs, it stands to reason that he must have been a part of its poor regular season performance, no?

I have a hunch though, that people would continue to loudly demand MT get his due praise while continuing to free him of any responsibility for previous ineffectiveness.

I'm also curious to hear how you'd react if Sekac turns out to be a serviceable 2nd liner; I don't think many people will say that Therrien misread the kid and that he actually was something special and will not ever criticize MT for it.

I remember that MT try Sekac on PP and Sekac did pretty good
But for some reason like the EGG line, he broke all the thing and coming back with his unsuccess Pach-DD PP solution

 

[Mathletic]

I'm curious if you fully thought through this question? I mean, if the PP does well in the playoffs, and LG comes back and says "Therrien adjusted and I give him full credit" wouldn't that also imply that earlier criticism of MT for a poor PP, the very criticism you've been focused on absolving him of, would be valid? I mean, if MT can have a good effect on the PP in the playoffs, it stands to reason that he must have been a part of its poor regular season performance, no?

No, it would only imply posters who think the PP sucks because of Therrien are consistent with themselves. Doesn't mean it proved anything. My point was that the PP is more random than people say it is. These things come and go. It's not because you go 5 for 18 all of a sudden that you're a PP genius.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

I remember that MT try Sekac on PP and Sekac did pretty good
But for some reason like the EGG line, he broke all the thing and coming back with his unsuccess Pach-DD PP solution

Yup. But 100+ point season!! Who cares about anything else!!??!!?!!?!?!

 

[Winter Eclipse]

No, it would only imply posters who think the PP sucks because of Therrien are consistent with themselves. Doesn't mean it proved anything.

So you loudly argue for a statement that doesn't prove anything? And you want a preliminary commitment to it in advance of the actual event happening?

My point was that the PP is more random than people say it is. These things come and go. It's not because you go 5 for 18 all of a sudden that you're a PP genius.

What else is random? PK? ES scoring? Record?

Also, what about my Sekac question?

 

[punk255]

Therrien believes he's largely responsible for Subban's Norris, I suspect he thinks his incredibly revolutionary, paradigm-changing defensive system* is responsible for Price's great numbers.










*

Yes MT think he create Price and Subban success like if theses players will not have as much success or more with others teams

I dont see so much success from him with player like Eller, Sekac or Gach
He have difficulty with skill and offensive player. He dont know what to do with them

No imagination, play north-south, dump and chase, shot from any angle and wish a goal

 

[Mathletic]

So you loudly advocate for something that doesn't prove anything?

It's simply called the null hypothesis. Until you prove me that coaches have control over a team's PP%, then I will keep thinking it's mostly random unless you have exceptional players on your PP like Crosby and Malkin. Other than that, PP% fluctuates quite a bit during a season. Just take the odd and even numbered games and you'll see for yourself.

Also, what about my Sekac question?

What about it? Therrien is already guilty of having busted the kid's development.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

It's simply called the null hypothesis. Until you prove me that coaches have control over a team's PP%, then I will keep thinking it's mostly random unless you have exceptional players on your PP like Crosby and Malkin. Other than that, PP% fluctuates quite a bit during a season. Just take the odd and even numbered games and you'll see for yourself.

You can argue the null hypothesis for everything, though; PK, ES scoring, PP performance, record, etc.

What about it? Therrien is already guilty of having busted the kid's development.

Err, what? So Therrien "busted the kid's development" but if he doesn't turn out to be anything special, you want Therrien to get credit for knowing that? Despite the fact that having "busted development" thanks to MT most likely would have played a crucial role in that negative outcome?

 

[punk255]

No, it would only imply posters who think the PP sucks because of Therrien are consistent with themselves. Doesn't mean it proved anything. My point was that the PP is more random than people say it is. These things come and go. It's not because you go 5 for 18 all of a sudden that you're a PP genius.

You cant have the random explication when it's almost 2 years that PP dont work
After 2 years without stats success, You can said that is a fact instead of a random thing

 

[Mathletic]

You can argue the null hypothesis for everything, though; PK, ES scoring, PP performance, record, etc.

Yeah sure, and you can disprove it some cases. That said, proving that anything is due to the coach will be extremely hard to do. Hence, why I don't subscribe to the lynch mob against Therrien or most coaches around the league and other sports.

Err, what? So Therrien "busted the kid's development" but if he doesn't turn out to be anything special, you want Therrien to get credit for knowing that? Despite the fact that having "busted development" thanks to MT most likely would have played a crucial role in that negative outcome?

Sekac was never drafted. Wasn't anything special in the OHL/USHL overall. Had a good season in the KHL but then again, it's not like he was a superstar. Was a fine signing but still a project. I doubt that 2 months of hockey under Therrien would have ruined the kid.

You cant have the random explication when it's almost 2 years that PP dont work
After 2 years without stats success, You can said that is a fact instead of a random thing

yeah sure and the year before it was good. Overall, the Habs PP under Therrien is right at the average mark, 15th overall rank since he's been with the team. If you only want to keep the bad then good for you. Hawks' PP has been all over the place despite having the same coach and players during that time. Who's to blame?

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Yeah sure, and you can disprove it some cases. That said, proving that anything is due to the coach will be extremely hard to do. Hence, why I don't subscribe to the lynch mob against Therrien or most coaches around the league and other sports.

Fair enough.

Sekac was never drafted. Wasn't anything special in the OHL overall. Had a good season in the KHL but then again, it's not like he was a superstar. Was a fine signing but still a project. I doubt that 2 months of hockey under Therrien would have ruined the kid.

What? You just said:

Therrien is already guilty of having busted the kid's development.

So which is it?

Did Therrien bust the kid's development, or do you doubt that 2 months under Therrien had an effect?

 

[Mathletic]

What? You just said:

So which is it?

Did Therrien bust the kid's development, or do you doubt that 2 months under Therrien had an effect?

That was sarcasm. I don't think playing under Therrien for 2 months has any bearing in the grand scheme of things on whether or not Sekac becomes a good players or is out of the league before we know it.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

That was sarcasm. I don't think playing under Therrien for 2 months has any bearing in the grand scheme of things on whether or not Sekac becomes a good players or is out of the league before we know it.

It's the Internet, you might wanna differentiate between sarcastic and sincere statements...

So if Sekac becomes a good player, should Therrien get some blame for misreading / misusing him?

Or were your pre-emptive demands for Therrien praise in the event of Sekac busting also sarcastic?

 

[Mathletic]

It's the Internet, you might wanna differentiate between sarcastic and sincere statements...

So if Sekac becomes a good player, should Therrien get some blame for misreading / misusing him?

Or were your pre-emptive demands for Therrien praise in the event of Sekac busting also sarcastic?

I don't think Therrien should get any blame or credit in the situation. He handled Sekac the same way the vast majority of coaches use their rookies not named Crosby, McDavid and who have you.

 

[punk255]

yeah sure and the year before it was good. Overall, the Habs PP under Therrien is right at the average mark, 15th overall rank since he's been with the team. If you only want to keep the bad then good for you. Hawks' PP has been all over the place despite having the same coach and players during that time. Who's to blame?

So your conclusion:
1) Coach dont make difference in PP
2) PP is simply a random thing
3) MT is has good coach as Hawks coach

Right now the PP is 26th and one the worst in the road
Habs have bad PP stats for a long time enough to conclude that they have bad PP under MT

Where you see the good ?

 

[Mathletic]

So your conclusion:
1) Coach dont make difference in PP
2) PP is simply a random thing
3) MT is has good coach as Hawks coach

Right now the PP is 26th and one the worst in the road
Habs have bad PP stats for a long time enough to conclude that they have bad PP under MT

Where you see the good ?

1) No not really, not from our perspective at least and results across tend to support that the information on how to run a PP is well spread around the league and no coach really has an edge over any other coach.
2) In most cases yes. Unless you have extremely good players like Malkin and Crosby on your PP or extremely bad players like Buffalo. About every team has good players on their first PP unit. Even a team like Arizona had guys like OEL and Yandle on the point.
3) No but the difference isn't as big as people make it out it be and it surely isn't because of the PP.

Is having a good PP on the road more predictive than having a good PP at home? If it was the other way around would you tell us that we can't accept that Habs aren't ready for home games and that definitely rests on the coach?

Since Therrien has been here, the Habs' PP sits 15th in the league. Nothing special, nothing incredibly bad either.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

I don't think Therrien should get any blame or credit in the situation. He handled Sekac the same way the vast majority of coaches use their rookies not named Crosby, McDavid and who have you.

Ok dude, so your constant demands for MT getting credit in your theoretical future events is merely for consistency?

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Keep
Calm
And
Trust
Da System​