D Prospects and Trading

[TheKingPin]

Exactly.

Now stick with me on this. We are much better off trading Ghost in 3 years because Sanheim is as good as him, then trading Sanheim ++ for a top 4 dman right now.

And please, I am just using this as an example. We do it need to bundle high end prospects + more for immediate help. We are not deep enough OVERALL, or good enough to make this kind of deal right now. In another year, we might be.

It's hard to imagine, but that's the point of letting things play out. Someone will impress and someone will disappoint. That's how it works.

 

[TheKingPin]

I think if it's 2020 and we don't have 3 NHL defensemen out of Provorov/Sanheim/Morin/Myers that are at least equivalent to, say, Timonen/Carle/Coburn, it'll be pretty damn disappointing.

That group + Ghost + MDZ + Gudas if necessary, plus maybe Friedman/Hagg, should give us a really good core.

If we're lucky, maybe Provorov is an All-Star and Myers is Colton Parayko.

I get your point, but if they ended up being those three I would be disappointed to be honest. I am a big timonen fan, but don't think he's the number one that gets you the cup. He's an amazing number 2 though. Carle is pointless and coburn is a ****up in my opinion.

 

[JXC]

Provorov looked ready this evening

 

[Rebels57]

I get your point, but if they ended up being those three I would be disappointed to be honest. I am a big timonen fan, but don't think he's the number one that gets you the cup. He's an amazing number 2 though. Carle is pointless and coburn is a ****up in my opinion.

If Provorov is equal to Timonen but Sanheim and Morin are better than Carle and Coburn than we are in good shape.

 

[baudib1]

If Provorov = Timonen and Sanheim = Carle, I'll be pretty disappointed, too.

I think those are closer to floor projections for those guys ~ their age 22-23 seasons.

For 6-5 guys who can skate, you can do worse than Coburn IMO.

 

[Larry44]

When's the last time the Flyers have had a home grown dman (either drafted by the Flyers or signed as an undrafted free agent) be a mainstay of the D-corps for at least 5 seasons? I have to go all the way back the Chris Therien's first stint, nearly 20 years ago.

This team has been so bad at drafting (I'm looking at you trading for Steve Eminger instead of drafting John Carlson), managing and developing their farm system's defensive assets for so long, and now that we finally have more than one or two promising defensemen coming through the ranks, you want to trade them? Bobby Clarke, is that you?

To be successful in this league, you need to be able to develop your own talent, and if you can do it on the backend especially, you're setting yourself up for a promising future. We need to get out of the long, bad habit of having the itchy trigger finger, and start thinking about long term success instead of a short term shot to be somewhat competitive.

On top of that, you have to look around you. There are several teams with loads of scoring talent coming up (Edm, Tor, Wpg). To beat them is going to take a complete group of big mobile D. Let's see how this group plays out - they could be amazing. I'm not trading Sanheim for Trouba or Barrie because he could be better than both...

 

[Stizzle]

If Provorov = Timonen and Sanheim = Carle, I'll be pretty disappointed, too.

I think those are closer to floor projections for those guys ~ their age 22-23 seasons.

For 6-5 guys who can skate, you can do worse than Coburn IMO.

I think you might be forgetting how good Kimmo Timonen was in his prime. He was pretty much the best player on the ice night in, and night out, like clock work. He was a legitimate #1 defenseman.

 

[deadhead]

Avs fan coming in peace. Funny that this thread was made because this is exactly what my question is about. With all of these Tyson Barrie rumours, I was wondering if you guys had any interest. I ask because Philly is a great trading partner for the Avs. Would you do Sanheim + cap dump (Umberger, Streit perhaps?) + something small for Barrie? Yes you lose a great prospect but gain one of the best offensive Dmen in the game, who is just coming into his own. I know you have similar qualities in Ghost, which is why I'm curious to see if Barrie would be a good fit for you.

Barrie would be superfulous for us, why would we trade for a guy whose best value is as captain of the PP when we have one of the best guys in the league entrenched for the next decade or so?

And Sanheim has more upside than Barrie, won't need a big contract for a few years, and makes more sense 5x5.

The only trade I could imagine with Sanheim would be for a near elite young RH defenseman with size. And that's improbable. We have one top RH defenseman prospect with Myers, we could use one more, but so can 20 other teams.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

If we are trading a D-prospect, then it should be for a forward prospect with comparable upside. I don't see much reason to do it right now, but the emergence of Myers this year has made it something that can be considered IF the right deal comes along.

 

[Mkoll]

If Provorov = Timonen and Sanheim = Carle, I'll be pretty disappointed, too.

I think those are closer to floor projections for those guys ~ their age 22-23 seasons.

For 6-5 guys who can skate, you can do worse than Coburn IMO.

hope that is sarcasm, otherwise your standards are impossibly high.

 

[Striiker]

How could anyone ever be disappointed with having another Timonen?????

Sanheim becoming Carle would suck, but Timonen was a great player.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah, Timonen was like top 10-15 Dman in the league with us. If Provy becomes that, we should be happy.

What's crazy, is that Kimmo joined us at age 32.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

Yeah, I've compared Provorov to Timonen in the past and would be happy he turned out to be a bigger version of him. Timonen had all the smarts, tenacity, and skill to be a #1. Most of the time, his 5'10" size did not hold him back but it did prevent him from laying out players like the 6'1" Provorov will be able to do.

And if Sanheim has stone hands like Carle, I'll be devastated.

 

[baudib1]

Timonen was never better than Pronger.

 

[Prongo]

Timonen was never better than Pronger.

There really weren't many that were...

 

[Striiker]

Who ever said he was?

 

[Brigid1011*]

I said it before that us winning a cup would be in the backs of our future D, not on our top forwards. And that is also why I have talked about trading Simmonds for an overpayment to align our forwards and D better. Having G and Jake as the vets is enough if Simmonds was turned unto a core player in a few years.

So if people want to speed things up, by trading away a Sanheim, then we should not stop there. We still have way too much deadweight. So many more moves would be needed to be made.

Reality is though, Hextall is not likely to do the speed up option. While it makes us better short term, it's not sustainable long term because we have not built a big enough pipeline of assets yet. We are still a few years away.

And for those to talk about G and Jakes declining they are about to enter year 3 and 1 of their 8 year deals. There is time. If not, then they never should have been re-signed right?

Simmonds is different because of when his contract ends. A tough decision will have to be made on him.

I'd deal Simmonds for assets that better fit our timetable. Hesitant to resign him at 31 to what he will demand. Dealing him well before that when his value is high makes sense. Say it's a first and a prospect and something else. That's at least 2 pieces that better suit our timeframe. I strongly consider any offers if I'm Hexy.

 

[dats81]

How could anyone ever be disappointed with having another Timonen?????

Sanheim becoming Carle would suck, but Timonen was a great player.

Timonen was an Allstar, #1B defenseman. I take one of those anytime of the week

As far as the Sanheim vs. Carle comparison goes... Sanheim is a weapon offensively and it's insulting to compare him to weak-wrists.

 

[baudib1]

1, I think everyone is taking too seriously the direct comparisons, I merely named a recent trio of solid defensemen the Flyers have employed. Also it was basically a floor and I said I'd be disappointed if that's all the group turned out to be.

2, I was never the biggest Matt Carle fan but he was a solid, two-way defensemen who played big minutes and consistently put up 35-40 points.

When he was an impending free agent, there were actually knowledgeable Flyers bloggers comparing Carle favorably to elite defensemen like Ryan Suter:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...rs-matt-carle-ryan-suter-nhl-free-agency-2012

I don't exactly endorse this and I wasn't terribly disappointed to see him go (I think we can all be glad we are not paying him $5.5M, although if we had signed him it might have prevented the AMac disaster).

Sanheim certainly has an exciting future and a high ceiling, but if everyone's expectation is that he's going to be a lot better than Carle, I'd suggest that we need to temper the hype a bit.

It will be EXTREMELY difficult for Sanheim to supplant Ghost or Provorov on PP1 (incidentally, I suspect that Provorov's skills may force the Flyers to utilize 2 D on PP1 at some point) so I think it will be hard for him to be much more than a ~7 goal, 25-30 assist guy.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You think Provorov is better offensively?

 

[flyershockey]

That Suter/Carle article has lived on in infamy.

 

[Striiker]

1, I think everyone is taking too seriously the direct comparisons, I merely named a recent trio of solid defensemen the Flyers have employed. Also it was basically a floor and I said I'd be disappointed if that's all the group turned out to be.

2, I was never the biggest Matt Carle fan but he was a solid, two-way defensemen who played big minutes and consistently put up 35-40 points.

When he was an impending free agent, there were actually knowledgeable Flyers bloggers comparing Carle favorably to elite defensemen like Ryan Suter:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...rs-matt-carle-ryan-suter-nhl-free-agency-2012

I don't exactly endorse this and I wasn't terribly disappointed to see him go (I think we can all be glad we are not paying him $5.5M, although if we had signed him it might have prevented the AMac disaster).

Sanheim certainly has an exciting future and a high ceiling, but if everyone's expectation is that he's going to be a lot better than Carle, I'd suggest that we need to temper the hype a bit.

It will be EXTREMELY difficult for Sanheim to supplant Ghost or Provorov on PP1 (incidentally, I suspect that Provorov's skills may force the Flyers to utilize 2 D on PP1 at some point) so I think it will be hard for him to be much more than a ~7 goal, 25-30 assist guy.

Mmmmm no.

You can either be knowledgable or compare Carle to Suter, not both.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We're saying Provorov is better than Sanheim offensively now?! I don't think we should be saying that.

This place is going to be brutal next year when Provorov starts out like Hanifin did.

 

[Rebels57]

Timonen in that 08 run to the ECF was as good as any defensemen in the league. He was a legit # 1 calibre Dman from about 26-36.

 

[flyershockey]

Timonen in that 08 run to the ECF was as good as any defensemen in the league. He was a legit # 1 calibre Dman from about 26-36.

Kimmo was a top 12-15 defenseman in the league in his prime. Until Pronger's arrival, he was the best defenseman to play for the franchise since late 90's Desjardins.