CXXXIX - Arizona Coyotes looking for a home - and the band plays on

[TheGreenTBer]

im trying to respond to in good faith

OK, I'm just saying because it seems like you were rattling off talking points from a soapbox there.

I think there's a lot of room for growth for hockey in Canada, partially due to factors both you and I have mentioned earlier. However, I don't see any current avenues that are realistic for an additional NHL team there. I don't think there is any appetite for expansion, and the only team even rumored to be on the relocation block is Arizona and I really don't see them relocating. I think the Coyotes get the Tempe deal done and stay in Arizona. If they don't get Tempe done I don't have a f***ing clue what happens to them to be honest, but the NHL is going to exhaust each and every even remotely possible option before considering Quebec in any way.

 

[joelef]

OK, I'm just saying because it seems like you were rattling off talking points from a soapbox there.

I think there's a lot of room for growth for hockey in Canada, partially due to factors both you and I have mentioned earlier. However, I don't see any current avenues that are realistic for an additional NHL team there. I don't think there is any appetite for expansion, and the only team even rumored to be on the relocation block is Arizona and I really don't see them relocating. I think the Coyotes get the Tempe deal done and stay in Arizona. If they don't get Tempe done I don't have a f***ing clue what happens to them to be honest, but the NHL is going to exhaust each and every even remotely possible option before considering Quebec in any way.

it will be like LA was for the NFL

 

[gstommylee]

If worse comes to worse, and Arizona moves to Quebec, likeliest scenario is it "stays" in the Central sort of like Winnipeg stayed in the Southeast Division for a couple seasons.

I believe Arizona is actually two hours off of the Central Time Zone Central teams right now because they don't fall back an hour each November, so scheduling an Eastern time zone team would seemingly be easier.

The NHL was against the idea too when they during the 2015 expansion process.

Quebec is far far east. It would stupid never mind bad for travel bad for the fans. Division games in central time zone. There is a reason why Detroit wanted to be in the eastern conference and having quebec in central would no different than forcing Detroit back to the western conference. Its a bad idea.

If Quebec what such the perfect idea it would already happened by now guess what it didn't.

what make you think the yotes owner would actually sell to a quebec group or yet alone NHL accepting a sale to quebec. Nothing is happening with that franchise with out the NHL having its hand over it. And i doubt they want quebec.

 

[gstommylee]

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that notion that Canada is saturated with hockey fans is false.

They aren't going to get more fans than what they already have by adding relocating a team to canada. How about putting a team if it needs to be relocated in a western city that will actually attract new fans that never watched the NHL before.

 

[gstommylee]

Also if the team moves to portland or Houston, the owner doesn't need to sell 100% of the shares of the team only 51% of the team to a group that would move them to either portland or houston.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

They aren't going to get more fans than what they already have by adding relocating a team to canada. How about putting a team if it needs to be relocated in a western city that will actually attract new fans that never watched the NHL before.

For one thing, your first sentence is entirely your opinion and not a hard fact. Secondly, I never suggested the Coyotes, or any other team for that matter, are even moving at all (in fact, I think they're staying in Arizona) so I don't have a clue of what gave you the impression I give two shits about any hypothetical nameless western cities.

 

[garbageteam]

OK, I'm just saying because it seems like you were rattling off talking points from a soapbox there.

I think there's a lot of room for growth for hockey in Canada, partially due to factors both you and I have mentioned earlier. However, I don't see any current avenues that are realistic for an additional NHL team there. I don't think there is any appetite for expansion, and the only team even rumored to be on the relocation block is Arizona and I really don't see them relocating. I think the Coyotes get the Tempe deal done and stay in Arizona. If they don't get Tempe done I don't have a f***ing clue what happens to them to be honest, but the NHL is going to exhaust each and every even remotely possible option before considering Quebec in any way.

I woulder if Houston at 1/2 price be preferable to QC at full price. Big assumption QC can even cobble investors together to pay it. The market is juicier and the alignment much cleaner that should outweigh the dollars alone, but the precedent it sets on team valuations might be the stumbling block to take on the poison pill that is Fertitta.

but anyway, any discussions outside of the Tempe deal seems like jumping the gun and way beyond the scope of the current focus for the Yotes.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

Also if the team moves to portland or Houston, the owner doesn't need to sell 100% of the shares of the team only 51% of the team to a group that would move them to either portland or houston.

True.

But would he still want to own 49% if there's no gambling access in either of those markets.

Also, if all this posturing about the Suns owner turns into something, any chance Murelo jumps into an ownership group or tries to take over? Seems like if an opening is there, a lot less headaches than dealing with the NHL.

 

[sh724]

If worse comes to worse, and Arizona moves to Quebec, likeliest scenario is it "stays" in the Central sort of like Winnipeg stayed in the Southeast Division for a couple seasons.

I believe Arizona is actually two hours off of the Central Time Zone Central teams right now because they don't fall back an hour each November, so scheduling an Eastern time zone team would seemingly be easier.

There is currently a 1 hour difference between the Arizona and the CTZ. During the winter months its standard time so Arizona is the same time as the rest of the MTZ.

When DST is in effect there is a 2 hour difference

 

[Voight]

I woulder if Houston at 1/2 price be preferable to QC at full price. Big assumption QC can even cobble investors together to pay it. The market is juicier and the alignment much cleaner that should outweigh the dollars alone, but the precedent it sets on team valuations might be the stumbling block to take on the poison pill that is Fertitta.

but anyway, any discussions outside of the Tempe deal seems like jumping the gun and way beyond the scope of the current focus for the Yotes.

What do you mean by this? He's said hes open to either owning an NHL franchise in Houston or letting them play in his arena.

 

[sawchuk1971]

Its annoying how much there is bettman hates canada when the last relocation was to winnipeg. Its the BOG decision who owns and where that team plays at. Winnipeg was lucky that there wasn't any other option avaiable for the thrashers. They also had to wait 10 years. Not NHL's fault quebec built an arena 100% publicly funded thinking they would get a team.

the government waited 25 years too late to build that arena....

they had their chance to build a new stadium when nordiques was still in the league....

 

[PCSPounder]

It’s easy.

Begin the Michigan separatist movement, and make one condition the setting of their time zone halfway between CTZ and ETZ.

(I just used one of my 2.5 evil laughs. They’re not to the level of Mark Hamill, but they’re pretty good)

That scenario is way more likely than Portland being able to move on anything. Vulcan can’t do a good firing right to save their lives, why throw a temp NHL team into that mess?

 

[aqib]

Quebec won't be getting a team as long as there is US interest. The only reason Winnipeg got the Thrashers were because there was no interest at the time from a US buyer to purchase them. Times have changed and sports teams are very lucrative - if the Thrashers were for sale today they would be moving to Houston, Portland, KC, Austin etc before Winnipeg.

Thats not true. Bill Daley said that there were 6 cities that inquired but Winnipeg was the preferred destination. Austin doesn't have an arena, the new Oakview Group arena will seat 10K for basketball. The other three have arenas but there are issues getting access to them.

 

[MNNumbers]

Thats not true. Bill Daley said that there were 6 cities that inquired but Winnipeg was the preferred destination. Austin doesn't have an arena, the new Oakview Group arena will seat 10K for basketball. The other three have arenas but there are issues getting access to them.

I don't mean this to be disagreable. I'm just honestly curious. Can you link Daly's comment to an article or something?

What were the 6 cities?

btw, I'm at a loss to know what I think I would do if I were Meruelo and the league if Tempe falls through. The only 2 destinations that seem possible to me are Quebec and Houston. But, I don't think I would want Houston if Fertitta won't pay more than about 300M.

 

[aqib]

Totally agree - Many Canadian sports fans think its all about attendance especially outside of Toronto. It's the first thing that comes up for another Canadian team. Also it comes up when you hear about a future expansion of the MLB/NBA in Canada. I always hear "well an NBA team in Montreal won't sell out like the habs." Even though they would not have to sell out because the bulk of money is made from rights deals. That's where the NHl wants to be as well and they won't get there by taking teams in growth markets and relocating them to small Canadian towns.

How is Arizona "a growth market"? They've been in Arizona for 25 years and haven't gotten any traction. Yes they've had 7 ownership changes give or take but that's because each ownership group takes a bath and can't keep sustaining losses. I don't get the logic that some people have that empty seats in an American arena are more valuable than occupied seats in a Canadian city.

 

[MNNumbers]

How is Arizona "a growth market"? They've been in Arizona for 25 years and haven't gotten any traction. Yes they've had 7 ownership changes give or take but that's because each ownership group takes a bath and can't keep sustaining losses. I don't get the logic that some people have that empty seats in an American arena are more valuable than occupied seats in a Canadian city.

Now, this, I can answer. The league itself doesn't really care how many seats are filled in any particular market. The league only cares about revenue that is shared to all the owners, because that's their cut.

So, what is that:
Primarily two things: National media revenue.......and merchandise sales.

Now, if one were to compare Phoenix vs Quebec City, I would reckon that the league would think thus: Phoenix is a huge city. Surely there is some US national media money to be had simply by being there. If we leave, there is probably a cut in the US media contract value. And, there are so many people there that, if done right, there must be a great market for selling jerseys, etc. On the other hand, QC does nothing for Canada's media contract, because everyone is watching national games already. Nordique merchandise? Not much market for that outside of QC itself....

Now, a person could disagree. But, I am sure that is the logic.

 

[aqib]

I don't mean this to be disagreable. I'm just honestly curious. Can you link Daly's comment to an article or something?

What were the 6 cities?

btw, I'm at a loss to know what I think I would do if I were Meruelo and the league if Tempe falls through. The only 2 destinations that seem possible to me are Quebec and Houston. But, I don't think I would want Houston if Fertitta won't pay more than about 300M.

I haven't been able to find it since its been 10 years. He didn't say who they were. I would assume QC and Hamilton were 2 of them. I'm not sure who the other 4 were

 

[aqib]

Now, this, I can answer. The league itself doesn't really care how many seats are filled in any particular market. The league only cares about revenue that is shared to all the owners, because that's their cut.

So, what is that:
Primarily two things: National media revenue.......and merchandise sales.

Now, if one were to compare Phoenix vs Quebec City, I would reckon that the league would think thus: Phoenix is a huge city. Surely there is some US national media money to be had simply by being there. If we leave, there is probably a cut in the US media contract value. And, there are so many people there that, if done right, there must be a great market for selling jerseys, etc. On the other hand, QC does nothing for Canada's media contract, because everyone is watching national games already. Nordique merchandise? Not much market for that outside of QC itself....

Now, a person could disagree. But, I am sure that is the logic.

So if that was the case you would think it would be reflected in TV ratings but the Coyotes have always had poor TV ratings and the media rights deals in Canada are more lucrative. Now I get this as an experiment 25 years ago but at what point does this no longer make sense. I agree that the team will stay as long as there is an owner who wants it to but to say losing Phoenix is a big loss doesn't add up. I remember at one point there was some state rep who said he thought the team had already left.

 

[OG6ix]

Thats not true. Bill Daley said that there were 6 cities that inquired but Winnipeg was the preferred destination. Austin doesn't have an arena, the new Oakview Group arena will seat 10K for basketball. The other three have arenas but there are issues getting access to them.

That is just lip service I'm sure people called but the two groups that have been viable for any team was the current Seattle group and Foley (knights owner) at the time. Both wanted a team in Vegas which didn't have an arena at the time. The others might have been Canadian.

A lot has changed since then though and sports franchises have shot up across the board. Back then the NHL was not too far distanced from the season long work stoppage which made owning a franchise questionable.

 

[VikingAv]

Thats not true. Bill Daley said that there were 6 cities that inquired but Winnipeg was the preferred destination. Austin doesn't have an arena, the new Oakview Group arena will seat 10K for basketball. The other three have arenas but there are issues getting access to them.

I don't mean this to be disagreable. I'm just honestly curious. Can you link Daly's comment to an article or something?

What were the 6 cities?

btw, I'm at a loss to know what I think I would do if I were Meruelo and the league if Tempe falls through. The only 2 destinations that seem possible to me are Quebec and Houston. But, I don't think I would want Houston if Fertitta won't pay more than about 300M.

I'm very curious, too, but the key word there is inquired. I have no doubt the league got quite a few calls from different cities and people, but there's a pacific ocean-sized gap between inquiring and actually having an owner (willing to pay somewhat close to what the NHL wanted) and an arena ready and available in just a few months.

 

[MNNumbers]

That is just lip service I'm sure people called but the two groups that have been viable for any team was the current Seattle group and Foley (knights owner) at the time. Both wanted a team in Vegas which didn't have an arena at the time. The others might have been Canadian.

A lot has changed since then though and sports franchises have shot up across the board. Back then the NHL was not too far distanced from the season long work stoppage which made owning a franchise questionable.

I'm a little lost at the timeline you are discussing here. Can you fill me in?

When Thrashers moved, who was interested? Obviously Winnipeg. Foley, then, too? OVG, also? I have never heard this.

When the expansion process surrounding Vegas was announced, Obviously Foley was interested. But QC was the only other applicant, in spite of several places asking for the application paperwork. I don't remember anyone in Seattle being part of that however, and Jacobs was disappointed at that.

What am I missing here?

 

[OG6ix]

I'm a little lost at the timeline you are discussing here. Can you fill me in?

When Thrashers moved, who was interested? Obviously Winnipeg. Foley, then, too? OVG, also? I have never heard this.

When the expansion process surrounding Vegas was announced, Obviously Foley was interested. But QC was the only other applicant, in spite of several places asking for the application paperwork. I don't remember anyone in Seattle being part of that however, and Jacobs was disappointed at that.

What am I missing here?

In an interview with Bruckheimer before the Kraken's first game he mentioned that him and Bonderman as a group were also interested in Vegas originally but Lieweke persuaded them to wait for Seattle as Oakview was planning on getting the Arena there. The other group remotely interested in owning a team after the Thrashers left (and were actually legitimate) was Jerry Reinsdorf and Paul Allen (rumoured) for the Coyotes. Both after the Thrashers had moved.

 

[Ernie]

I don't remember anyone in Seattle being part of that however, and Jacobs was disappointed at that.

Ray Bartozsek was floating the idea of building a new stadium in Tukwila (south of Seattle) and bringing in an NHL team. However, he failed to apply for an expansion franchise and went nowhere with the proposal.

It was reported that the NHL was rather annoyed at him, as they were expecting an application.

 

[Mightygoose]

Ray Bartozsek was floating the idea of building a new stadium in Tukwila (south of Seattle) and bringing in an NHL team. However, he failed to apply for an expansion franchise and went nowhere with the proposal.

It was reported that the NHL was rather annoyed at him, as they were expecting an application.

Bartozsek's name was also floated as buying the Coyotes and moving them to Seattle if Glendale voted down the 2013 lease to IA.

With no plans for a new/rebuilt arena there either, I think the league dodged a disaster

 

[awfulwaffle]

Ray Bartozsek was floating the idea of building a new stadium in Tukwila (south of Seattle) and bringing in an NHL team. However, he failed to apply for an expansion franchise and went nowhere with the proposal.

It was reported that the NHL was rather annoyed at him, as they were expecting an application.

Source? And I'm talking about the nhl being annoyed at him.