Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, and Draisaitl

[overpass]

With 5 Art Ross trophies on his shelf, Connor McDavid has surpassed Sidney Crosby as an offensive force.

But how much of McDavid's offensive edge over Crosby is because he has played more with his elite offensive teammate, Leon Draisaitl, than Crosby played with Evgeni Malkin?

At even strength, Crosby and Malkin have largely centred separate lines. Up until 2012-13 they occasionally played together at 5-on-5, and since 2013-14 they have almost exclusively played apart at 5-on-5. On the other hand, McDavid has spend a lot of time on a line with Draisaitl. But when Crosby and Malkin played together at even strength, they were extremely productive.

All numbers from naturalstattrick.com

From 2007-08 to 2012-13:
Crosby and Malkin played together for 1130 5-on-5 minutes, and were on the ice for 94 GF in those minutes, at a rate of 4.99 GF/60.

From 2017-18 to 2022-23:
McDavid and Draisaitl played together for 2963 5-on-5 minutes, and were on the ice for 204 GF in those minutes, at a rate of 4.13 GF/60.

And here are the corresponding numbers for the same years at 5-on-5.

McDavid/no Draisaitl: 4373 minutes, 228 GF, 3.13 GF/60
Draisaitl/no McDavid: 4171 minutes, 194 GF, 2.79 GF/60
No McDavid or Draisaitl: 10713 minutes, 311 GF, 1.74 GF/60

Crosby/no Malkin: 3341 minutes, 206 GF, 3.70 GF/60
Malkin/no Crosby: 4379 minutes, 214 GF, 2.93 GF/60
No Crosby or Malkin: 11874 minutes, 399 GF, 2.02 GF/60

So Crosby and Malkin actually produced at a higher rate offensively when played together at 5-on-5 than McDavid or Draisaitl did. Possibly with better support from their D, but even so, they were very potent together.

Could Crosby and Malkin have sustained this scoring rate with more minutes together, say if they played together as much as McDavid and Draisaitl? If so, is McDavid's edge over Crosby at EV scoring largely because he gets to play more with his world-class teammate than Crosby did? Or because Draisaitl's game is more complementary to another star than Malkin's game?

Of course, 5-on-5 is only one part of the game, and McDavid has a big edge in power play scoring. But Crosby and Malkin are notorious for not fitting together well on the power play. At 5-on-4, Pittsburgh has scored at about the same rate when one of them is off the ice as when both are on the ice, which is really bizarre. And it seems like Pittsburgh fans regularly complain about the power play. On the other hand, McDavid and Draisaitl are a historically productive power play combination.

So how much of McDavid's power play edge over Crosby is because Draisaitl is a more adaptable power play weapon than Malkin? Or is McDavid just better than Crosby with the man advantage?

Click to read more...

 

[MadLuke]

It is possible that Malkin-Crosby could have deployed more rarely in more exceptional scenario (end of period after a break, end of game and desparate need of a goal, etc...)

Puck moving D you are paired with could be a significant deal as well.

The era can change a little bit fast has well, we could look around the era 5v5 scoring.

08-10 highest goal for by 60 goes around 3.60 for the Crosby-Ovechkin-Sedin of the world.
21-23 highest goal for by 60 goes around 4 to 4.3 for the MacK-Matthews-Tkachuk

McDrai window was maybe in a significantly higher scoring time.

We have to watch out to not fall in trap to reward not fitting well and punish fitting well, which can be a sign of being good at adjusting and not just luck to have someone that fit well (or undervalue a good powerplay, what would the Pens give for one this season...).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Only reason crosby doesn't also 4-6 art ross is injuries. Has nothing to do with McDavid being a better offensive player./thread

 

[overpass]

It is possible that Malkin-Crosby could have deployed more rarely in more exceptional scenario (end of period after a break, end of game and desparate need of a goal, etc...)

Puck moving D you are paired with could be a significant deal as well.

Yes, good point. Ideally I would look only at stats from games where they played the majority of 5-on-5 time together. Or if there weren't any such games for Crosby and Malkin, remove all such games from the McDavid-Draisaitl stats to make them comparable. I think that would take more time than I'm willing to invest.

We have to watch out to not fall in trap to reward not fitting well and punish fitting well, which can be a sign of being good at adjusting and not just luck to have someone that fit well (or undervalue a good powerplay, what would the Pens give for one this season...).

Yeah the powerplay is a clear advantage for the EDM duo, no doubt about it.

But at even strength there is some evidence that the Pittsburgh duo actually did fit well, although its maybe not fully comparable to the Edmonton situation as you say.

And while I'm suggesting a what-if about Crosby and Malkin playing together more, and hinting they may have approached McDavid-type scoring numbers together, I have to admit that keeping them apart may have been the right move. The Pens did win 3 Cups with that 1-2 punch at C. And McDavid and Draisaitl haven't really demonstrated the ability to drive high scoring separate lines in the playoffs. Most of their playoff scoring has come in the games they've played together.

 

[Fatass]

Crosby was the top guy on three Cup winners. Malkin was second best (forward) on three Cup winners. Not too sure what there is more to accomplish for those two. A lot more to winning than putting up points.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Only reason crosby doesn't also 4-6 art ross is injuries. Has nothing to do with McDavid being a better offensive player./thread

In his best offensive seasons he totally dominated his peers in the scoring race, something Crosby has never done.

Could he have? I'm sure he would have in 2011 and 2013, but I'll take full seasons over 41 and 36 game samples.

If he wins the Art Ross by a good 15 or more points once more in his career, I don't think there will be any argument remaining that Crosby was a better or equal offensive player.

Also, he's won five Art Ross trophies in eight seasons. Crosby has had how many healthy seasons in his career? I get that he had his injury problems at the worst possible time (in the middle of his offensive peak), but I'm more impressed by the actual wins than by beating Jamie Benn by 0.04 PPG or whatever.

Additionally, he's been first or second in scoring every season of his career except his rookie season. Crosby's had numerous healthy seasons where he wasn't first or second in scoring. We'll see how Connor ages, though.

 

[MadLuke]

In his best offensive seasons he totally dominated his peers in the scoring race, something Crosby has never done.

He also had a >2ppg deep playoff run, 33pts +15 in 16 games, that something that would be good for prime Gretzky

 

[daver]

In his best offensive seasons he totally dominated his peers in the scoring race, something Crosby has never done.

Could he have? I'm sure he would have in 2011 and 2013, but I'll take full seasons over 41 and 36 game samples.

If he wins the Art Ross by a good 15 or more points once more in his career, I don't think there will be any argument remaining that Crosby was a better or equal offensive player.

Also, he's won five Art Ross trophies in eight seasons. Crosby has had how many healthy seasons in his career? I get that he had his injury problems at the worst possible time (in the middle of his offensive peak), but I'm more impressed by the actual wins than by beating Jamie Benn by 0.04 PPG or whatever.

Additionally, he's been first or second in scoring every season of his career except his rookie season. Crosby's had numerous healthy seasons where he wasn't first or second in scoring. We'll see how Connor ages, though.

Some would view a 56 game season in a seven team division with arguably weaker defensive teams as being worthy of an asterix.

Full marks to McDavid for taking advantage of better luck with injuries during his prime. On a per game basis, they are almost identical in terms of PPG dominance vs. the other Top 10/20 scorers thru nine seasons. Advantage McDavid in purely offensive production terms in the regular season.

He is 3rd in scoring this year so far. He is catching up lately (2,25 PPG since the All-Star break) but the Oilers have also regressed back to playing leaky hockey vs. the tighter game they played during their 16 game win streak (McDavid was a 1.63 PPG during the streak).

At the same time, full marks to Crosby for his playoff success which highlighted his offensive greatness, leadership and superior all around game.

You pick McDavid if you want to play a run and gun style, you pick Crosby if want to have flexibility to play other styles.

 

[daver]

With 5 Art Ross trophies on his shelf, Connor McDavid has surpassed Sidney Crosby as an offensive force.

If Crosby was as fortunate with injuries as McDavid has been, he was arguably going to have the superior Art Ross resume through nine seasons.

And it was clear early on that both Crosby and Malkin could carry their own lines regardless of the quality of their linemates and produce at league best levels so the OP's premise is a bit wonky. The Pens likely are not as successful if they played Crosby and Malkin together at ES as much as McDavid and Draisaitl.

I think McDavid, like Crosby and Malkin, is a player who is going to get his points regardless of who is on his line whether it is at ES or on the PP. Draisaitl not so much.

 

[overpass]

Yes, good point. Ideally I would look only at stats from games where they played the majority of 5-on-5 time together. Or if there weren't any such games for Crosby and Malkin, remove all such games from the McDavid-Draisaitl stats to make them comparable. I think that would take more time than I'm willing to invest.

It turns out naturalstattrick has a game log function that makes it really easy to pull the 5-on-5 time together by game. So I ran the 5-on-5 together numbers for Crosby/Malkin and McDavid/Draisaitl, breaking them down into different buckets based on the 5-on-5 time they played together in each game.

Crosby/Malkin together at 5-on-5 (2007-08 to 2012-13 regular season)

TOI/game	GP	TOI	GF	GF/60
0 minutes together	12​	0​	0​	#DIV/0!​
0-2 minutes together	119​	125.3​	19​	9.10​
2-5 minutes together	74​	230.2​	17​	4.43​
5-10 minutes together	32​	216.0​	17​	4.72​
10+ minutes together	40​	558.0​	41​	4.41​
Total	277​	1129.5​	94​	4.99​

McDavid/Draisaitl together at 5-on-5 (2017-18 to 2022-23 regular season)

TOI/game	GP	TOI	GF	GF/60
0 minutes together	23​	0​	0​	#DIV/0!​
0-2 minutes together	143​	119.1​	15​	7.56​
2-5 minutes together	69​	204.0​	12​	3.53​
5-10 minutes together	51​	373.5​	25​	4.02​
10+ minutes together	149​	2265.9​	152​	4.02​
Total	435​	2962.467​	204​	4.13​

Both duos scored at by far the highest rate together in games where they only played 0-2 5-on-5 minutes together. There is clearly a selection effect in those games, where the coach is putting them together in key moments where they have a better chance to score. So if we look only at the games where they played at least 10 minutes together, Crosby/Malkin still drove a more potent offense, but about half their advantage disappeared after removing the selection effect. But even after making this adjustment, I have a hard time dropping them behind the Edmonton duo at 5-on-5.

Of the 40 games where Crosby and Malkin played 10+ 5-on-5 minutes together. 20 of the games were from the 2007-08 season, all before Crosby's ankle injury. 16 were from the 2008-09 season, all before Michel Therrien was fired. And then there were 4 across the next 3 seasons. So the Crosby/Malkin EV combo was mostly a Michel Therrien thing. Dan Bylsma almost never played them together for a full game, but still used them together for parts of games. And then Mike Johnston and Mike Sullivan almost completely stopped playing them together at 5-on-5.

Pittsburgh won only 21 of those 40 games when they played together, so it was probably a good move by Bylsma and subsequent coaches to keep Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, even though their scoring rates dropped as a result.

In the 40 games when they played together most at 5-on-5:
Crosby had a scoring line of 18-47-65, +19, and 1.63 points per game.
Malkin scored 27-31-58, +17, 1.45 points per game.

In the other 246 games they both played:
Crosby scored 133-205-338 (1.37 points per game, 0.26 points per game less)
Malkin scored 94-176-270 (1.10 points per game, 0.35 points per game less)

Malkin also scored 63-84-147 (1.56 points per game) in the 94 GP he played without Crosby during this 6 year period. So he was clearly most productive as the #1C without Crosby in the lineup, or while playing on the same line as Crosby. When he played as the #2 centre behind Crosby, his scoring rate took a big hit.

I'll also post the 5-on-5 playoff numbers for the Oiler duo here. Their playoff games together break down almost 50-50 between games where they played 10+ 5-on-5 minutes together and games where they didn't, and their numbers are very different in those games.

Playoffs, 5-on-5, McDavid and Draisaitl

TOI/game	GP	TOI	GF	GF/60	Wins	W%
Less than 10	25​	71.5​	3​	2.52​	8​	0.320​
10+ minutes together	24​	384.5​	37​	5.77​	14​	0.583​
Total	50​	456.0​	40​	5.26​	22​	0.449​

In the playoff games where they played 10+ 5-on-5 minutes together:

McDavid: 24 GP, 12 G, 30 A, 42 P, +21, 1.75 points/game
Draisaitl: 24 GP, 14 G, 34 A, 48 P, +18, 2.00 points/game

And in the playoff games where they played fewer than 10 5-on-5 minutes together:

McDavid: 25 GP, 17 G, 16 A, 33 P, -5 1.32 points/game
Draisaitl: 25 GP, 17 G, 12 A, 29 P, -8, 1.16 points/game

The Oilers have really struggled in the playoffs with McDavid and Draisaitl on separate lines, even though the two have scored at a good rate. When they've played together, both have scored at an all-time great rate, and the Oilers have won most of their games. It will be interesting to see which direction the team decides to take going forward. Kris Knoblauch has only played them on the same line for a full game a handful of times so far. Will he end up putting them back together in the playoffs?

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Crosby was as fortunate with injuries...

No doubt you desire to pretend something else happened. But it didn't.

It's not luck anyway. Crosby got injured due to low on-ice awareness.

___________________________________

Separate comment: This fad of zooming in on 5v5 while ignoring the other ~35% of scoring needs to die. It is a fundamentally incomplete picture, and unnecessarily so.

 

[The Panther]

McDavid is clearly a better offensive player than Crosby. There shouldn't be any debate there. (This isn't a put-down on Crosby, obviously, as only one guy -- Jagr -- has been close to McDavid's peak scoring level among forwards, outside of Wayne/Mario, since peak Phil Esposito, if not in hockey history.)

The fact that McDavid played more youth/early-prime minutes with Draisaitl than Crosby did with Malkin is possibly a result of the Oilers (until recently) being thinner at forward:

Crosby and McDavid each won the scoring title in his second season.
Crosby led the NHL in points in 2006, but not in goals or assists. He was 10th (behind Vanek and Jokinen) in ES points. Rookie Malkin scored 85 points, and Recchi, Gonchar, and Whitney all scored 59 to 68 points. Most of Crosby's assists went to Malkin (17), Recchi (14), Malone (11), and Gonchar (7).
McDavid in 2017 led the NHL in assists, points, and ES points. Draisaitl scored a strong (but not spectacular) 77 points that season, and no other Oiler reached 52 points. Most of McDavid's assists went to Draisaitl (15), Maroon (14), Lucic (12), and Letestu (8).

It is true to say, however, that Crosby's totals are somewhat "better" than they appear in a direct comparison because of the lower-scoring NHL -- not of 2006, though (a huge year for PPs, with Crosby basically winning the Art Ross because over half his points were on the PP). But from maybe 2008 to 2017, Crosby's full-season totals will appear less than McDavid's partly due to league scoring effects. I mean, they are less than McDavid's, but not by as much as they appear.

 

[authentic]

He also had a >2ppg deep playoff run, 33pts +15 in 16 games, that something that would be good for prime Gretzky

Crosby had 28 points in 17 games after 3 rounds in a lower scoring era, also more recently had 21 points in 12 games at age 31. I still think McDavids was a better performance but it’s not by as much as you would think.

 

[The Panther]

Crosby had 28 points in 17 games after 3 rounds in a lower scoring era, also more recently had 21 points in 12 games at age 31. I still think McDavids was a better performance but it’s not by as much as you would think.

Let's break that down a bit:

2008 Finals:
6GP: 2G + 4A = 6PTS (+1) 2nd on team in scoring
2009 Finals:
7GP: 1G + 2A = 3PTS (-3) tied for 4th on team in scoring, behind Max Talbot
2016 Finals:
6GP: 0G + 4A = 4PTS (0) tied for 2nd on team in scoring with Hagelin, Kessel
2017 Finals:
6GP: 1G + 6A = 7PTS (+5) 1st on team in scoring

Frankly, the 2008, 2009, and 2016 Finals were, for me, a minor flaw in Crosby's legacy. He really didn't move the needle a great deal in the Final. I mean, every star's numbers go down in the Finals and few put up dominant stats there, but his stats in "the big show" (esp. in '09 and '16, when they won) were highly underwhelming. (I personally thought his best Finals was 2008, when they lost.) Fortunately, he produced nicely in 2017 and deservedly won the Smythe.

(Of course, we can't compare this directly with McDavid because he's never been in the Final. Such is life.)

 

[daver]

Let's break that down a bit:

2008 Finals:
6GP: 2G + 4A = 6PTS (+1) 2nd on team in scoring
2009 Finals:
7GP: 1G + 2A = 3PTS (-3) tied for 4th on team in scoring, behind Max Talbot
2016 Finals:
6GP: 0G + 4A = 4PTS (0) tied for 2nd on team in scoring with Hagelin, Kessel
2017 Finals:
6GP: 1G + 6A = 7PTS (+5) 1st on team in scoring

Frankly, the 2008, 2009, and 2016 Finals were, for me, a minor flaw in Crosby's legacy. He really didn't move the needle a great deal in the Final. I mean, every star's numbers go down in the Finals and few put up dominant stats there, but his stats in "the big show" (esp. in '09 and '16, when they won) were highly underwhelming. (I personally thought his best Finals was 2008, when they lost.) Fortunately, he produced nicely in 2017 and deservedly won the Smythe.

(Of course, we can't compare this directly with McDavid because he's never been in the Final. Such is life.)

2008 - Against the best Cup winner of the post 2005 lockout era, Crosby, along with Hossa, were the only two Pens that did anything offensively while being a positive player at ES. Crosby ended up leading the league in playoff scoring, possibly the youngest player in NHL history to do so, while leading a team that had 58 points just two seasons prior to the SCF.

After that SCF, noone was saying that was a "minor flaw" in Crosby's legacy. And no other team from the post 2005 lockout era was beating the Wings that year.

2009 - Full marks to Malkin for taking advantage of the easier matchups as the Wings #1 priority was to contain Crosby with their GOAT d-man and the arguably #1 shutdown C in the league with the hope their depth was better than the Pens' depth. In doing this, the #1 lines for each team were effectively cancelled out at ES. It is true that Crosby should get little credit for being one of the main catalysts for the Pens winning the SCF.

Of course focusing only on the SCF takes away from Crosby having one of the best 3 round performances of the of the post Wayne/Mario era leading up to the SCF - 14 goals, 28 points in 17 games while notably dragging below average wingers at ES (as did Malkin). Overall, you will not find a Cup champ that relied more on two forwards to carry them through the regular season and to the Cup in NHL history.

The irony is that his legacy would be improved if the Pens went out after 3 rounds like Forsberg's 3 round playoff runs are revered (and McDavid). I am sure Crosby is happy to have won the Cup instead.

2016 - Crosby wins the Conn Smythe with his 2-way play and clutch scoring. He notably edged out Kessel with his play in the CF and SCF. The Pens were rolling three scoring lines with Crosby's #1 line, with a career 3rd liner and an AHL callup, being tasked to eat up minutes of the other team's #1 line and #1 d-pairing, so notably the HBK line, could take advantage of the other team's 3rd line and 2nd/3rd d-pairings.

The Pens played a puck possession game and should be considered, with a few other teams, to be arguably the 2nd best Cup winner since 2005. Crosby, with his versatile offensive game and strong 2-way play, was indisputably the centerpiece for that team.

No argument that his Smythe win is weak in comparison to others since 2005 but then that playoff run is arguably not even in his Top 4 for his career.

2017 - If there was any remaining doubt that his SCF legacy was still wanting, he erased it in 2017. His Game 5 was the best SCF game of his career and he was goalpost away from having an iconic SCF goal that would be replayed over and over like Mario's "What a goal!!" vs. the North Stars.

at the 10 second mark

His 2017 legend will likely grow as he came back from yet another concussion (his 2nd that season and 3rd of his career) during that playoff run.

 

[daver]

McDavid is clearly a better offensive player than Crosby. There shouldn't be any debate there. (This isn't a put-down on Crosby, obviously, as only one guy -- Jagr -- has been close to McDavid's peak scoring level among forwards, outside of Wayne/Mario, since peak Phil Esposito, if not in hockey history.)

Except for the fact that Crosby's PPG dominance vs. his peers is similar to McDavid's thru their first nine seasons, something that has been mentioned many times by now. You could argue the gap would be in Crosby's favour if he played more games from 2011 to 2013 at his peak.

Clearly better regular season offensive resume due to due better luck with injuries? Sure.

Clearly better offensive player? Nope

Edge to Crosby given his superior 2-way game and deployment as a #1C vs. McDavid's deployment as an offensive weapon and C/W hybrid? Yes

 

[Michael Farkas]

McDavid is clearly a better offensive player than Crosby. There shouldn't be any debate there.

I'm not saying "no, wrong"...but the "no debate" and all that noise definitely is...

Goodness, are we already at a point where recency bias is being used against Crosby...

 

[solidmotion]

I'm not saying "no, wrong"...but the "no debate" and all that noise definitely is...

Goodness, are we already at a point where recency bias is being used against Crosby...

there's definitely a debate. i basically think mcdavid is a cut above but it's very close and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. when you compare results (see charts) and not the eye test (which mcdavid obviously wins) there are even points in crosby's favour (further ahead of the competition in his ~peak than mcdavid is in his).

 

[Michael Farkas]

I understand what that says, but scoring is what 10, 11, 12% higher in the McDavid times than Crosby's?

Like, I'll buy that McDavid has an edge. Crosby was the original hyperspeed superstar, it was kind of new concept. McDavid is a little bit different kind of animal, but in a world that has more of this style of player. I think that's an interesting piece to this too, but that's a lot of nuance - even for my tastes.

But, I'm not gonna die on the hill that McDavid is not better than [whatever you put here], but the concept of it being "don't even think about it, it's not close" ...I don't think that's on the table at all.

 

[BraveCanadian]

there's definitely a debate. i basically think mcdavid is a cut above but it's very close and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. when you compare results (see charts) and not the eye test (which mcdavid obviously wins) there are even points in crosby's favour (further ahead of the competition in his ~peak than mcdavid is in his).

McDavid's competition is better.

 

[solidmotion]

McDavid's competition is better.

is it? malkin, ovechkin, stamkos, st. louis, the sedins... no slouches

 

[BraveCanadian]

is it? malkin, ovechkin, stamkos, st. louis, the sedins... no slouches

Yes. Malkin was up and down with injuries. Ovi was only Ovi for a short time, St. Louis was an old man.. and the Sedins were the Sedins

 

[bobholly39]

With 5 Art Ross trophies on his shelf, Connor McDavid has surpassed Sidney Crosby as an offensive force.

But how much of McDavid's offensive edge over Crosby is because he has played more with his elite offensive teammate, Leon Draisaitl, than Crosby played with Evgeni Malkin?

At even strength, Crosby and Malkin have largely centred separate lines. Up until 2012-13 they occasionally played together at 5-on-5, and since 2013-14 they have almost exclusively played apart at 5-on-5. On the other hand, McDavid has spend a lot of time on a line with Draisaitl. But when Crosby and Malkin played together at even strength, they were extremely productive.

All numbers from naturalstattrick.com

From 2007-08 to 2012-13:
Crosby and Malkin played together for 1130 5-on-5 minutes, and were on the ice for 94 GF in those minutes, at a rate of 4.99 GF/60.

From 2017-18 to 2022-23:
McDavid and Draisaitl played together for 2963 5-on-5 minutes, and were on the ice for 204 GF in those minutes, at a rate of 4.13 GF/60.

And here are the corresponding numbers for the same years at 5-on-5.

McDavid/no Draisaitl: 4373 minutes, 228 GF, 3.13 GF/60
Draisaitl/no McDavid: 4171 minutes, 194 GF, 2.79 GF/60
No McDavid or Draisaitl: 10713 minutes, 311 GF, 1.74 GF/60

Crosby/no Malkin: 3341 minutes, 206 GF, 3.70 GF/60
Malkin/no Crosby: 4379 minutes, 214 GF, 2.93 GF/60
No Crosby or Malkin: 11874 minutes, 399 GF, 2.02 GF/60

So Crosby and Malkin actually produced at a higher rate offensively when played together at 5-on-5 than McDavid or Draisaitl did. Possibly with better support from their D, but even so, they were very potent together.

Could Crosby and Malkin have sustained this scoring rate with more minutes together, say if they played together as much as McDavid and Draisaitl? If so, is McDavid's edge over Crosby at EV scoring largely because he gets to play more with his world-class teammate than Crosby did? Or because Draisaitl's game is more complementary to another star than Malkin's game?

Of course, 5-on-5 is only one part of the game, and McDavid has a big edge in power play scoring. But Crosby and Malkin are notorious for not fitting together well on the power play. At 5-on-4, Pittsburgh has scored at about the same rate when one of them is off the ice as when both are on the ice, which is really bizarre. And it seems like Pittsburgh fans regularly complain about the power play. On the other hand, McDavid and Draisaitl are a historically productive power play combination.

So how much of McDavid's power play edge over Crosby is because Draisaitl is a more adaptable power play weapon than Malkin? Or is McDavid just better than Crosby with the man advantage?

I didn't get a chance to look at all the stats in-depth yet to see how they might be affected by changing years , but one quick callout:

Draisaitl had 70 poins in 2017-2018. He really only broke out in 2018-2019, and it's only by 2019-2020 that he started peaking. In contrast - both Malkin and Crosby were at their peak/prime levels by 2007-2008, the year you start the comparison on their side.

Wouldn't it therefore be a more fair comparison to really only look at years starting at either 2018-2019, or even more 2019-2020?

 

[authentic]

Let's break that down a bit:

2008 Finals:
6GP: 2G + 4A = 6PTS (+1) 2nd on team in scoring
2009 Finals:
7GP: 1G + 2A = 3PTS (-3) tied for 4th on team in scoring, behind Max Talbot
2016 Finals:
6GP: 0G + 4A = 4PTS (0) tied for 2nd on team in scoring with Hagelin, Kessel
2017 Finals:
6GP: 1G + 6A = 7PTS (+5) 1st on team in scoring

Frankly, the 2008, 2009, and 2016 Finals were, for me, a minor flaw in Crosby's legacy. He really didn't move the needle a great deal in the Final. I mean, every star's numbers go down in the Finals and few put up dominant stats there, but his stats in "the big show" (esp. in '09 and '16, when they won) were highly underwhelming. (I personally thought his best Finals was 2008, when they lost.) Fortunately, he produced nicely in 2017 and deservedly won the Smythe.

(Of course, we can't compare this directly with McDavid because he's never been in the Final. Such is life.)

Not sure what you were breaking down, like you said McDavid hasn’t even been to the finals yet.

 

[daver]

Yes. Malkin was up and down with injuries. Ovi was only Ovi for a short time, St. Louis was an old man.. and the Sedins were the Sedins

So if Malkin wasn't injured, you think he is closer to Crosby in PPG, correct?

Crosby was also up and down with injuries, how much better would his PPG have been?

McDavid's competition is better.

If you compare their prime seasons (Season #2 to Season #9), the % ahead of the #5, #10, #20, #30 PPG scorer etc... is almost the same.

That stat takes into consideration hundreds of data; effectively negating an argument that an uninjured Malkin outs up a better PPG in one season; one marginally better season doesn't change the results.

You can point to individual seasons for McDavid's stats too (e.g. Kucherov misses a full season).

They were both ahead of the pack of the other elite scorers by a similar amount %-wise.