Confirmed with Link: Craig Berube named the 32nd Coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[usernamezrhardtodo]

It's why I don't expect Berube to do anything crazy when it comes to how the team plays. I expect that they will be tighter defensively in the regular season, but the reality is that defensive play in the playoffs isn't an issue with this team.

I think the problems stemmed from Keefe letting them play loose during the reg season and then expecting them to tighten down in the playoffs. They were able to tighten it up...but had no clue how to do that AND score, it was foreign to them. They need to start in January at the latest and play the way they will in April for them to get reps and find the nuances of scoring. Keefe really messed this up worse than it had to be IMO.

 

[ITM]

I still feel that Kessel tweeting that there is nothing better than night fishing while the playoffs were still going was one of the more tone deaf things Ive seen from a leaf player. Dont get me wrong, Marner lives in la la land and does not get it, or doesnt care, both arent a great look in this market.


50 pts in 57 playoff games for an "elite" player is not the flex you seem to think it is.

What flex is that specifically?

 

[Leafsfan74]

LOL.

Sports media already received their marching orders from MLSE.

"Ok guys, here's the deal, go out and promote that the Leafs core will NOW be a dominant playoff team because they have a new, rugged, demanding coach. Yeah. Because we all know full grown babies need a alpha male to order them to give a damn.

"Wait, changes? You didn't really think we had the stones to change the team into a hard nosed winner did you? Come on, you know it's all about selling jerseys, we always do that at the year end conference the advertisers love that. We just need to sell the fans hope. Hey, give the usual retreads and sports 'experts' a call, bring in the former players who can sell our message. If forced into a corner, talk about how nice Marners passes are"

 

[Darcy Tucker]

^ Hold my beer

How many more chances would you give him? And what do you think would be a reasonable 4 year deal for Marner?

4 x 11m and re assure Marner that if he's traded he will have input on his new destination. Maximize the value of his stock and get the best haul for him because the window is closing.

Matthews is only signed for 4 more years. By all accounts in the media and from what I see on socials Matthews and Marner are pretty close friends. Maybe Papi doesn't want the best passer on the team traded for unknowns. It wouldn't help his Rocket chances.

 

[ITM]

Who do you think is forgetting what exactly? I've said all along that Marner is great during the regular season, then as the games get bigger, he gets smaller and that's a well established pattern by now. I want playoff success and "the corpus of Marner's work" isn't helping us in the playoffs, simple as that.

I agree. To say it again, on top of previous posts in which the confusing premise accompanies, I agree.

I'm pointing out something we seem very uncomfortable wrestling with: Players we thought were one deficient thing or another, went on to be major contributors elsewhere, and in the two instances noted, Cup winners.

I'm laying my emotion to the side to ask the question: Are we walking into (another) mistake, when we consider everything about Marner, including (at least in my memory) a different player when handled by firmer hand?

By the way, I'm going to offer a webinar on the proper use of quotations.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I think the problems stemmed from Keefe letting them play loose during the reg season and then expecting them to tighten down in the playoffs. They were able to tighten it up...but had no clue how to do that AND score, it was foreign to them. They need to start in January at the latest and play the way they will in April for them to get reps and find the nuances of scoring. Keefe really messed this up worse than it had to be IMO.

Some of this, sure. However, these are not teenagers, these are adult men who have had the shyte kicked out of them every playoff run for 8 years. If they need a coach to instill the will and desire to sacrifice, to WIN, there isn't a magic bullet coming.

I recall posting a couple of years ago that Marner will never win a Cup as long as he is a key piece of a team. I don't know the guy, it is just an objective assessment from watching a tonne of hockey in my lifetime.

Playoffs have and will remain a different beast. It is far more about DNA than an All Star Game skills competition.

 

[thusk]

You can post all the numbers you like, nothing's going to convince me that Marner hasn't been a massive disappointment for us in the playoffs overall. And I'm pretty sure Matthews and Nylander have been playing against top 6 opposition, not sure what else to way there.

I missed that Kessel tweet (or maybe just forgot about it), that's hilarious. Not a great look for sure but as long as you still play the game the way you're supposed, that's what really matters. Kessel I don't think let things get to him the way Marner does though. He'll just eat another hot dog and not worry about what people think while Marner on the other hand, it feels like his confidence in terms of playoff hockey is just gone.


Yup, agree with all this. He's still a great player though, too bad he wasn't healthy as he was such a monster in game 2. Hopefully we'll see more perdormances like that from him in the future.

How many more chances would you give him? And what do you think would be a reasonable 4 year deal for Marner?

I think the opposite is true - not trading him now would be foolish. Then you either let him walk for nothing a year from now or even worse, extend him again, two really bad options.

like i said matthews played 64 and 68 % against top so 32 and 36% against bottom 6.

so exemple for 15 min at 5v5, 10 min had been vs top 6 and 5 against bottom 6. Marner is like 12 min 45 sec against top 6 and 2 m 15 vs bottom 6

 

[ITM]

ITM it's NOT recency bias. Marner's playoff performance has ALWAYS been like this. He fades in games 4-7. It's a pattern and others have done the research and published the stats in this forum.

I agree. To repeat as qualified in other posts, I agree.

My point in asking the question wants to consider Marner's entire work, distinguished by firmer and lighter handed coaches.

When I call recency bias, I'm calling out Marner from this playoffs fiasco which (but for one game) isn't an $11M dollar, or $9M dollar or even a $4M dollar player; He'd be offered league minimum with a contractual requirement that made him accept the offer with a verbal agreement that said: "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

I'm there with you and others. I am.

I'm asking the question because it really seems we get to a point as a fanbase, where we run players out of town, who then go on to succeed, and with it, lament and question how we ever got to that perspective.

It'll be one unprecedented Chinese finger-trap if we get there with Marner given what looks like complete apathy and disinterest from his part, but I think it's a necessary exercise that in the event this guy burns us, we know we placed our emotions aside, and examined the move to a degree that if Marner's previous potential is realized elsewhere, we can begin to talk about why that keeps happening.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think the problems stemmed from Keefe letting them play loose during the reg season and then expecting them to tighten down in the playoffs. They were able to tighten it up...but had no clue how to do that AND score, it was foreign to them. They need to start in January at the latest and play the way they will in April for them to get reps and find the nuances of scoring. Keefe really messed this up worse than it had to be IMO.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Start playing playoff type hockey in October would IMO give us the best chance of playoff success, not sure how doing anything else makes sense TBH.

4 x 11m and re assure Marner that if he's traded he will have input on his new destination. Maximize the value of his stock and get the best haul for him because the window is closing.

Matthews is only signed for 4 more years. By all accounts in the media and from what I see on socials Matthews and Marner are pretty close friends. Maybe Papi doesn't want the best passer on the team traded for unknowns. It wouldn't help his Rocket chances.

Fair enough. I'd rather not myself as I think we can put that cap space to much better use. I also feel like Marner will absolutely not be willing to sign for less than Nylander. As far as Matthews goes, who cares what he thinks. Don't the inmates rule the asylum, simple as that. And if we put together a team that does better in the playoffs then Matthews should be happy as well. And if winning in the playoffs doesn't make him happy then trade him next.

I agree. To say it again, on top of previous posts in which the confusing premise accompanies, I agree.

I'm pointing out something we seem very uncomfortable wrestling with: Players we thought were one deficient thing or another, went on to be major contributors elsewhere, and in the two instances noted, Cup winners.

I'm laying my emotion to the side to ask the question: Are we walking into (another) mistake, when we consider everything about Marner, including (at least in my memory) a different player when handled by firmer hand?

By the way, I'm going to offer a webinar on the proper use of quotations.

Yeah it's true that our players go on to have success elsewhere, I can't explain it, maybe we really are cursed but I can't worry about that when making decisions like this. I'm completely sold on the idea of trading Marner, I first brought it up after we lost to MTL and with hindsight, we would obviously be much better off had we done that. Better late than never, I don't see him being a part of playoff success here and if finds that success somewhere else, good for him but once he's gone I really don't care.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I really think the medias is just trying to magnify the weakness of Berube. He might not be a master tactician but I doubt he is clueless with X and O. He has been a coach in NHL for a long time, he got to pick up some tricks along the way.

Those same people that are questioning Berube's tactics are probably the same ones who thought Keefe was a master at it....

 

[Menzinger]

While most folks are focusing on his potential relationship with the core, the thing I'm most intrigued by is the ability to avoid in the playoffs is a trap that Keefe fell into, which was second guessing himself ans mixing things up too often.

Sometimes adaptation on the fly IS the right call, but Keefe took it to an extreme

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Marner can't stand playing on a line with him in the NHL why would he go do that at the world's?

Who said he has to play on the same line?

 

[nuck]

It's why I don't expect Berube to do anything crazy when it comes to how the team plays. I expect that they will be tighter defensively in the regular season, but the reality is that defensive play in the playoffs isn't an issue with this team.

Berube did nothing crazy when he came in to the Blues. There plenty of player comments about him on the web to read and he isn't that guy. Being an extremely tough player has got some people thinking he will be an extremely tough coach but that doesn't seem to be a thing. These guys want to win and if they think he can take them there I am not concerned about the buy in from any of the players.

Sammy out, legit playoff goalie in, Brodie off the top pair, legit top RD in. Healthy Big 3, new coach, new culture. He is playing with house money because their best guys are at their peak and the weakest link in net will be gone. Still a long way to go to the 2025 playoffs but I think this will be a different club when they get there.

 

[nuck]

You've clearly never heard of Red Kelly.

The fact you have to go back to the Bronze Age to find an example proved my point. Lets see, him, Dit Clapper, Cyclone Taylor ... In recent decades there has been more successful D converted to forwards than wingers to C. Especially when they already have a clear #1c I don't think its a possibility. They just want him to earn the whale of a contract and teaching him a new position might not be the best way to achieve that.

 

[TS Quint]

I don't understand what you're trying to say with that 1st sentence.

I think Nylander was quite good the last two playoffs, and I don't think he spent much time playing against 3rd/4th lines either. We'll see what happens but I'm not worried about Nylander at all.

Yes the PP sucks and it blows my mind that all talent can produce such a poor PP. I don't know who to blame so I'll just say that there's plenty of blame to go around so of course Matthews/Nylander get their fair share. And Marner too, he's supposed to be the "engine of the team" or so some people have been saying anyway.


Nonsense. These guys played Berube style defensive hockey against Boston and games 5-7, and especially in games 5/6 they did it like champions. Move Marner out, use that cap space to get a good goalie and a good Dman and there's no telling how good these guys could be, especially after one more year when we can do something else with JT's cap space as well.

Or maybe you meant to say that for sure, that's not how Marner plays? In that case I'd say that you just might be right.


You claimed you "explained yourself", I'm still waiting for you to show us when you did that because I'm pretty sure when you asked me to find you posts where people were criticizing Matthews, that wasn't it.

A number of people told you that you were wrong, nothing to do with "sentiment".

I don't "desperately want" anything, why do you insist on making up and posting this ridiculous fiction?

If you meant disproportionate amount of blame then that's fine, but I'm pretty sure you never said that before, it's only now after posting a ton of nonsense that you're getting around to that. And "disproportionate" is a subjective term so you can think what you like, I personally think the blame he's getting is completely deserved. When you have an 11 million dollar cap hit and keep choking in the playoffs, you deserve a big huge heap of blame.

Nobody said one player is to blame, that's been clear to everyone. Are you ever going to finish chewing on that old tired straw man? Do you really enjoy the taste that much?

All you had to do is start with something like "oops, I shouldn't have said Marner's the only one being blamed, of course that's not true" and that would have been the end of it. But no, you were so butthurt by a few of us pointing out that you're wrong that you went off on these ridiculous rants. Have you had a good time? Are you (finally) done now?

Wow, another wall of text, but are you still claiming to not be unhinged?

Literally no one else said I was wrong. Multiple people understood the question and answered. I have no idea what you are still upset about. At this point it's on you. Literally everyone else who replied understood. I tried over multiple post to help you but I can only lead the horse to water, I can't teach him to read.

 

[Evilhomer]

Still a long way to go to the 2025 playoffs but I think this will be a different club when they get there.

It has to be a different roster when they get there, and it will be. The question will be whether Treliving makes the right moves. The success of this team has nothing to do with who will be coaching it, and everything to do with the roster that guy will be coaching.

 

[Gabriel426]

Boston didn't spent more money on their bottom 6 and their outplayed leafs bottom 6 pretty easily. the only goal from bottom 6 came from kampf. They're something bigger than the player by himself.

Like I said, if the Leafs relies on the big guns to score and provide offence in the regular season, it just doesn't make sense for them to suddenly expect the supporting players to score more.
Like you can't expect Revo to score a few goals in a 7 games series.
I am not saying the depth guys did their job but at the same time, you just can't have AM, MM and JT combining for THREE goals in a 7 games series.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

The gamble is keeping him for this contract season and see how he plays in the playoffs for Berube. Not panic dumping him now for sub par assets because you don't like his interactions with the media and he's going to be the same player forever.

That's not a given. I don't deal in absolutes. I believe everyone deserves more chances this is Leafs Nation not Nazi Germany.

Maybe you can re sign Marner to a reasonable 4 year deal so he's a serious asset for us not a dump that we get no value for.

Obvious Rocket Security employee is obvious.

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree. To say it again, on top of previous posts in which the confusing premise accompanies, I agree.

I'm pointing out something we seem very uncomfortable wrestling with: Players we thought were one deficient thing or another, went on to be major contributors elsewhere, and in the two instances noted, Cup winners.

I'm laying my emotion to the side to ask the question: Are we walking into (another) mistake, when we consider everything about Marner, including (at least in my memory) a different player when handled by firmer hand?

By the way, I'm going to offer a webinar on the proper use of quotations.

Both players that ended up winning Cups played a secondary role on their respective teams both in roles and salaries.
Do you think MM can do that?
He might be willing to play a secondary role on the Leafs but can he get paid like one?
The most expensive secondary role players on the Leafs makes 5.5mil. Now MM is more talented than Bert, how about 8.5mil? Do you think MM will agree to a 8.5mil/yr contract with the Leafs or any other teams?
Kadri and Phil left and was placed at the role they were most comfortable with and teams did that b/c of how much they were making. Eichel is probably the only one making over 10mil that can be consider playing the secondary role on Vegas when they won but he was still their 1C and led them in scoring.
It really comes down to, are you willing to bet on the same horses again for another year hoping for a different result bc you changed the jockey?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I agree. To repeat as qualified in other posts, I agree.

My point in asking the question wants to consider Marner's entire work, distinguished by firmer and lighter handed coaches.

When I call recency bias, I'm calling out Marner from this playoffs fiasco which (but for one game) isn't an $11M dollar, or $9M dollar or even a $4M dollar player; He'd be offered league minimum with a contractual requirement that made him accept the offer with a verbal agreement that said: "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

I'm there with you and others. I am.

I'm asking the question because it really seems we get to a point as a fanbase, where we run players out of town, who then go on to succeed, and with it, lament and question how we ever got to that perspective.

It'll be one unprecedented Chinese finger-trap if we get there with Marner given what looks like complete apathy and disinterest from his part, but I think it's a necessary exercise that in the event this guy burns us, we know we placed our emotions aside, and examined the move to a degree that if Marner's previous potential is realized elsewhere, we can begin to talk about why that keeps happening.

Some people will regret it if Marner "succeeds" if he's traded. They will lord it over the rest of us to prove they were "right" and we were "wrong". It'll be more non productive garbage.

IMO Marner's playoff performance issues haven't been due to the sternness of the coaching staff or lack thereof. You probably did hit on it earlier. He got paid, and of course different humans are motivated by different things. Alas, that horse has already left the barn. You can't take the comfort that the big money brings back.

 

[PromisedLand]

Seeing on twitter that there is Treliving and Berube conference tomorrow. Anyone know if true and if yes what time?

 

[Gabriel426]

Seeing on twitter that there is Treliving and Berube conference tomorrow. Anyone know if true and if yes what time?

They are not going to come out and say, we plan to trade him, him and him, when asked by the medias.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wow, another wall of text, but are you still claiming to not be unhinged?

Literally no one else said I was wrong. Multiple people understood the question and answered. I have no idea what you are still upset about. At this point it's on you. Literally everyone else who replied understood. I tried over multiple post to help you but I can only lead the horse to water, I can't teach him to read.

You asked why Marner was the only one taking blame, a few of us told you that this isn't true at all. You refused to concede the point and even asked me to show you posts where Matthews was being blamed (even though I never mentioned him specifically). After insulting me multiple times you finally admitted that what you said was wrong, that you meant something other than what you actually said so good for you. Why are you still going on about this and still being insulting?

 

[Confucius]

Seeing on twitter that there is Treliving and Berube conference tomorrow. Anyone know if true and if yes what time?

It’s just going to be the official announcement, no real news. May talk about future plans but I doubt it.

 

[mikeyz]

OMG LMFAO