Coyotes/Tippett's Development of Forward Prospects.

[XX]

This is what Edmonton is doing, if that is what you want....

Yes, clearly. There is no middleground to be had where prospects are not rushed, yet are given room to grow and make mistakes. It doesn't exist. Either you throw everyone into the fire at once, or no one gets to play at all.

 

[Sinurgy]

It's unfortunate the Yotes have not been able to produce a top notch scoring forward yet but I think it has far more to do with drafting than it does Tippet. Turris is the only player we can really use for comparison and while he's doing decent in Ottawa he's not exactly lighting it up despite playing in a far more offensive system.

 

[rt]

It's unfortunate the Yotes have not been able to produce a top notch scoring forward yet but I think it has far more to do with drafting than it does Tippet. Turris is the only player we can really use for comparison and while he's doing decent in Ottawa he's not exactly lighting it up despite playing in a far more offensive system.

Yep. Turris is the only example. He's basically doing what Boedker's doing and probably would be doing the same if he had stayed here. With a one season delay, most likely. Turris was pencilled in on a top line. It wasn't enough for him. It was his own impatience. Not Dave Tippett. People should blame Turrif for Turris.

 

[azcanuck]

My friend is a scout in the OHl and I asked for an update on Max Domi yesterday.

This is what he had to say:

Max is a talent , but that said his play ever since he came back from the Yotes camp has been undisciplined , he takes real stupid penalties , the other night he slashed a guy for no reason at all when they had a pp and did the same thing as soon as he got out of the box putting the team down two players , that has been the knock against him this season , undisciplined play , he has a ton of talent but is playing like he has a pea brain , when the 6 players were away at the world juniors he took the team on his back and played the way he can , now that they are back in the lineup he has reverted back to the dumb play .Hope this is not what you wanted to hear , but it is an unbiased assessment of his play , I like the KId ..

 

[azcanuck]

Unless a player is an uber talent it's far better to let him go back to his final year in junior where he can learn to be "the man". He will get a ton of ice time and dominate giving him the confidence he needs in the NHL. And most importantly he can grow a bit physically. Most of these guys still have little boy bodies on the whole.

I remembe watching the first year Turris was in the league. He was getting killed on the ice. Him and Boeds both should have gone back to junior. that really set the two back. It takes a least a couple of years after drafting an 18 year old kid for him to develop until being ready. Unless his name is sidney crosby he has no business in the NHL. Defensmen take longer because of the strength needed to deal with the physical aspects.

This is no blame on Tippett. It was Gretzky and co. who had the youth movement going.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Sens fan coming in peace.

1. The Coyotes didn't get burned in the Turris trade, that's revisionist history. Everyone raved about the Coyotes patience during the holdout and the huge return they received despite the circumstances and Turris mediocre regular season production. If you don't believe me, go look at the threads at the time the trade was made. Everyone said the Coyotes made out like bandits. Rundblad was considered one of the top 3-5 defensemen not in the NHL and Turris was considered to be busting. People were saying the second round pick should have gone the other way. If the trade hasn't worked out the way you expected, fine, but you can't re-write history, the Coyotes did well during negotiations.

2. The Coyotes did a good job developing Turris and his success in Ottawa is a direct result of his time in Phoenix. His faceoffs and defensive play in Ottawa have been excellent. He saved their bacon last year when Spezza went out and it wasn't because he was putting up a ton of points. Phoenix might not have developed Turris into a 100 point centreman, but they made sure an offensively talented guy had enough of an overall skillset to stay in the league.. Lots of guys in Turris' position bust out, look at Brett Connolly, Filatov, Scott Glennie, etc.. He was drafted in a weak year and was considered a boom or bust prospect. Phoenix had bad luck to be picking high in a weak year, same with Wheeler. They did pick the right player though, management knows what they're doing.

 

[rt]

ICA is correct.

 

[cobra427]

Sens fan coming in peace.

1. The Coyotes didn't get burned in the Turris trade, that's revisionist history. Everyone raved about the Coyotes patience during the holdout and the huge return they received despite the circumstances and Turris mediocre regular season production. If you don't believe me, go look at the threads at the time the trade was made. Everyone said the Coyotes made out like bandits. Rundblad was considered one of the top 3-5 defensemen not in the NHL and Turris was considered to be busting. People were saying the second round pick should have gone the other way. If the trade hasn't worked out the way you expected, fine, but you can't re-write history, the Coyotes did well during negotiations.

2. The Coyotes did a good job developing Turris and his success in Ottawa is a direct result of his time in Phoenix. His faceoffs and defensive play in Ottawa have been excellent. He saved their bacon last year when Spezza went out and it wasn't because he was putting up a ton of points. Phoenix might not have developed Turris into a 100 point centreman, but they made sure an offensively talented guy had enough of an overall skillset to stay in the league.. Lots of guys in Turris' position bust out, look at Brett Connolly, Filatov, Scott Glennie, etc.. He was drafted in a weak year and was considered a boom or bust prospect. Phoenix had bad luck to be picking high in a weak year, same with Wheeler. They did pick the right player though, management knows what they're doing.

Excellent post, and perhaps this will stop the criticism of Tip/DM and young players...

 

[CC96]

Thanks for the input IranCondraAffair.

 

[MacOfNiagara]

Sens fan coming in peace.

1. The Coyotes didn't get burned in the Turris trade, that's revisionist history. Everyone raved about the Coyotes patience during the holdout and the huge return they received despite the circumstances and Turris mediocre regular season production. If you don't believe me, go look at the threads at the time the trade was made. Everyone said the Coyotes made out like bandits. Rundblad was considered one of the top 3-5 defensemen not in the NHL and Turris was considered to be busting. People were saying the second round pick should have gone the other way. If the trade hasn't worked out the way you expected, fine, but you can't re-write history, the Coyotes did well during negotiations.

I don't want to go digging through those countless threads, but I really felt that the Sens made a great move there and that Turris was being mishandled in Phoenix.

Reminds me of the mishandling of Myers after his breakout. Had it not been for a complete overhaul of management in Buffalo I believe things would have worked out in a similar fashion for Buffalo.

I'm not a fan of either team, but I thought then and I think now that the Sens took advantage of a situation that Phoenix management screwed up badly. IMO.

 

[DesertDawg]

I don't want to go digging through those countless threads, but I really felt that the Sens made a great move there and that Turris was being mishandled in Phoenix.

Reminds me of the mishandling of Myers after his breakout. Had it not been for a complete overhaul of management in Buffalo I believe things would have worked out in a similar fashion for Buffalo.

I'm not a fan of either team, but I thought then and I think now that the Sens took advantage of a situation that Phoenix management screwed up badly. IMO.

??? Vermette is a much better player! And the only reason why Turris returned to the rink was because Oprah went off the air...

 

[CC96]

I don't want to go digging through those countless threads, but I really felt that the Sens made a great move there and that Turris was being mishandled in Phoenix.

Reminds me of the mishandling of Myers after his breakout. Had it not been for a complete overhaul of management in Buffalo I believe things would have worked out in a similar fashion for Buffalo.

I'm not a fan of either team, but I thought then and I think now that the Sens took advantage of a situation that Phoenix management screwed up badly. IMO.

Turris screwed himself in Phoenix. He got top-line minutes in the playoffs and was pretty much a shoe-in for top 6 minutes before he decided to cry and hold out. It's not like he had any competition either, because the centers he would have had to beat out for top 6 minutes were household names like Boyd Gordon, Cal O'Reilly and Kyle Chipchura.

When he did finally sign a contract he managed to piss off all the veterans on the team, while putting forth a disgraceful effort for 6 games before he was traded.

 

[hbk]

Some Monday Morning quarterback talk.

Nobody thought Turris was worth what Ottawa gave up. Nobody. Check the threads. It's revisionist history at its finest.

Turris finally physically matured and is now able to display his skill set. That's what happened. Let's not fancy it up any more than that.

Mishandled? Turris forced the Coyotes to turn him pro. Turris held a gun to the head of this franchise on more than one occasion.

 

[hbk]

My friend is a scout in the OHl and I asked for an update on Max Domi yesterday.

This is what he had to say:

Max is a talent , but that said his play ever since he came back from the Yotes camp has been undisciplined , he takes real stupid penalties , the other night he slashed a guy for no reason at all when they had a pp and did the same thing as soon as he got out of the box putting the team down two players , that has been the knock against him this season , undisciplined play , he has a ton of talent but is playing like he has a pea brain , when the 6 players were away at the world juniors he took the team on his back and played the way he can , now that they are back in the lineup he has reverted back to the dumb play .Hope this is not what you wanted to hear , but it is an unbiased assessment of his play , I like the KId ..

Check out my review before we selected him. Very undisciplined.

 

[XX]

Mishandled? Turris forced the Coyotes to turn him pro. Go back and read what happened. Turris held a gun to the head of this franchise on more than one occasion.

That's news to me, hbk. Got a source for that?

 

[hbk]

That's news to me, hbk. Got a source for that?

Here's a post that I made years ago in one of the many threads. This one is from "Turris trades to Ottawa (confirmed)


"What I found interesting during an interview with Assistant GM Brad Treliving yesterday on XM Radio was it was Turris and his agent that demanded a contract to come out of NCAA early. I had always assumed it was Phoenix who pushed for that (there are some teams that aren't huge fans of the NCAA for developing prospects and after the Wheeler experience this would not have shocked me). "



Last edited by hbk: 12-20-2011 at 12:38 PM.

 

[XX]

Here's a post that I made years ago in one of the many threads. This one is from "Turris trades to Ottawa (confirmed)

That's pretty scummy. He would've been twice the player had he stayed at Wisconsin with their weight training program and the college schedule. Skill was never the problem with Turris.

I hope we've since upgraded our scouts ability to judge character. Turris had none.

 

[Blubba Jenkins]

I could be wrong, but I thought the whole reason Turris played in the BCHL instead of the WHL was so he could play NCAA and fast-track to the NHL.

 

[hbk]

I could be wrong, but I thought the whole reason Turris played in the BCHL instead of the WHL was so he could play NCAA and fast-track to the NHL.

NCAA is not the fast track to NHL.

He wanted NCAA University experience. Either he couldn't handle school or didn't like the ice-time he was getting as a freshman (and I went to see him play he was not over utilized).

 

[ck26]

NCAA is not the fast track to NHL. He wanted NCAA University experience. Either he couldn't handle school or didn't like the ice-time he was getting as a freshman (and I went to see him play he was not over utilized).

NCAA's isn't a great place for a beanpole like 19 year old Turris ... plenty of 23 and 24 year olds running around haha.

This is a weird thread built on a weird premise. Brenden Morrow, Steve Ott, Trevor Daley and Loui Eriksson all did a ton of developing under Tipp in DAL, and while none of them are top-end scorers, DAL wasn't drafting that and wasn't playing a scheme that called for that before or during Tipp's time.

There's a saying that says if you're good enough, you're old enough. "System teams" (a silly term because every team has a system) don't rob players of skill, they just don't rely on it, which allows the Kennedys and Szwarzes of the world to survive where they couldn't on TGO's EDM teams.

Domi is learning wing in juniors. Yandle became a full time NHL'er the year of his 22nd birthday, so Gormley is right on track.

 

[azcanuck]

NCAA's arent a place for "beanpole" 19 year old's but the NHL is?

Turris did not belong in the NHL at that age. It's one thing if you have a lot of speed like Kane to avoid the contact. Turris was getting killed here trying to play. He simply didnt have the experience or speed to avoid contact.

The Yotes clearly mishandled Turris's development. His attitude in the end got him a one way ticket out of town. But no matter how you spin it the Yotes had a top end talent and didnt get much for him. I dont care how fans on a board valued him at the time.

 

[azcanuck]

Here's a post that I made years ago in one of the many threads. This one is from "Turris trades to Ottawa (confirmed)


"What I found interesting during an interview with Assistant GM Brad Treliving yesterday on XM Radio was it was Turris and his agent that demanded a contract to come out of NCAA early. I had always assumed it was Phoenix who pushed for that (there are some teams that aren't huge fans of the NCAA for developing prospects and after the Wheeler experience this would not have shocked me). "



Last edited by hbk: 12-20-2011 at 12:38 PM.

Do you think any of this is unusual in the game of negotiating?

 

[rt]

Actually Wisconsin was the PERFECT program for Turris. Especially because he was 6'0 155lbs. They play half the amount of games in D1 that they do in the CHL. This allows for twice the amount of time in the gym and at practice. Wisconsin is famous for creating athletes for this reason. They make you big. If he hadn't caught mono and lost ten pounds as a freshman, he'd likely have been a year ahead in physical development. If that mono had been avoided, and they coyotes had him remain an amateur for just one more season, he'd be our first line center today.

 

[rt]

NCAA is not the fast track to NHL.

He wanted NCAA University experience. Either he couldn't handle school or didn't like the ice-time he was getting as a freshman (and I went to see him play he was not over utilized).

He's never been much for paying his dues, being patient and professional. More like a toddler in a toy store stomping around and shrieking "I want I want I want!" You can really see the truth of how things went down when you go back and watch interviews with Turris and his former Coyote teammates about what happened. Obviously they're completely non specific, but you can really get the feel of the thing. Plus there is the fact that Hanzal, Boedker and Morris always seem overly eager to line him up in the train tracks and attempt to murder him whenever the two teams play.

 

[hbk]

NCAA's arent a place for "beanpole" 19 year old's but the NHL is?

Turris did not belong in the NHL at that age. It's one thing if you have a lot of speed like Kane to avoid the contact. Turris was getting killed here trying to play. He simply didnt have the experience or speed to avoid contact.

The Yotes clearly mishandled Turris's development. His attitude in the end got him a one way ticket out of town. But no matter how you spin it the Yotes had a top end talent and didnt get much for him. I dont care how fans on a board valued him at the time.

Turris forced hand to go pro. Couldn't play in AHL at that age.

Judging by Turris's play today I would argue that the Coyotes did a great job developing Turris.

Find me one trade rumor, suggestion, proposal prior to the trade that met or exceeded the return received. The management rolled dice on Rundblad no question. Eastern scout loved Rundblad and team turned down a first in another offer.