Coyotes still owe rent for 2019/2020 UPD - Post #217 (Reconciled)

[MNNumbers]

OthmarAmmann was another good poster.

There are a couple more whose screen names are gone from me.

 

[Llama19]

Judge tosses Sahara’s defamation lawsuit against Las Vegas blogger

Source: www.reviewjournal.com/crime/courts/judge-tosses-saharas-defamation-lawsuit-against-las-vegas-blogger-2156317/

 

[awfulwaffle]

Judge tosses Sahara’s defamation lawsuit against Las Vegas blogger

Source: www.reviewjournal.com/crime/courts/judge-tosses-saharas-defamation-lawsuit-against-las-vegas-blogger-2156317/

What exactly is the point behind this post?

Judge dismisses Sahara Las Vegas lawsuit against blogger over closure rumors

The author, citing unnamed sources, wrote the property was expected to close permanently in September.

Sahara Las Vegas remains open and operating.

 

[Pandemonia]

What exactly is the point behind this post?

Judge dismisses Sahara Las Vegas lawsuit against blogger over closure rumors

The point is that the lawsuit came up earlier in this disc group.

Mind you, lots of earlier stuff here disappears, espy when I corrected some male about non-sequitur and got tons of likes and presto the exchange disappears. Doesn't happen on other HFboards, doesnt happen on other sports boards Im hitting. Seems mostly arizona focus.

Maybe a better question is why remove posts when u need free content from posters to generate enough ad hits since its just gonna discourage them from posting and less traffic to ur site means less income. Hmmm ?

 

[Yukon Joe]

If you want context, Shakespeare's exact line ''The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers,'' was stated by Dick the Butcher in ''Henry VI,'' Part II, act IV, Scene II, Line 73. Those sufficiently educated to read the play will see that Dick is replying to the rebel leader who asks how he can overthrow law and order and install himself as king. If you want to get rid of justice and legal succession, he is told, the first thing you have to do is kill all the lawyers. Context is everything.

I know this is almost a month old, but I just saw it now and can't resist.

As a lawyer I used to use this bit of reasoning in the past to explain the "first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". But, as you say, context is king. If you read the play that entire bit is played for comedy. It was meant neither as denouncing my profession, nor meant as a defence of the profession to "those sufficiently educated".

It was just meant to get laughs.

Which just goes to show you that lawyer jokes are a good bit older then you previously thought.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - it's a lawyer joke

 

[Dirty Old Man]

What exactly is the point behind this post?

Judge dismisses Sahara Las Vegas lawsuit against blogger over closure rumors

One doesn't need a reason to waste bandwidth. Par for the course.

 

[TheLegend]

The point is that the lawsuit came up earlier in this disc group.

Mind you, lots of earlier stuff here disappears, espy when I corrected some male about non-sequitur and got tons of likes and presto the exchange disappears. Doesn't happen on other HFboards, doesnt happen on other sports boards Im hitting. Seems mostly arizona focus.

Maybe a better question is why remove posts when u need free content from posters to generate enough ad hits since its just gonna discourage them from posting and less traffic to ur site means less income. Hmmm ?

In this case it's not a point (and mind you I'm the one who introduced that lawsuit to this discussion)..... it's another weak excuse to make the discussion of the Coyotes visible again.

Because if someone truly wanted to make a point, they wouldn't just slap an article link up without explanation.

 

[Pandemonia]

I know this is almost a month old, but I just saw it now and can't resist.

As a lawyer I used to use this bit of reasoning in the past to explain the "first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". But, as you say, context is king. If you read the play that entire bit is played for comedy. It was meant neither as denouncing my profession, nor meant as a defence of the profession to "those sufficiently educated".

It was just meant to get laughs.

Which just goes to show you that lawyer jokes are a good bit older then you previously thought.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - it's a lawyer joke

Speaking of context, check out the author of that link. He bills himself as a "civil liberties activist' but u look at his MIT stuff past 20 years and he's pretty anti-lawyers and anti-libraries and anti- a bunch of stuff.

Since the old moose cant defend his post, I'll just leave this here: 'Kill the Lawyers,' A Line Misinterpreted (Published 1990)

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The last 20 years say otherwise, attendance/tv ratings/ are still abysmal 4-5 different owners not a single one could make it work, they got a new arena it made no impact..... You dont need a gazillion fans to make it work you just need 20000 willing to pay 100$ a game forty times a year and they still dont have that after so many years

Since 2002-03, across 1348 regular season games the Coyotes are 579-594-175 (lumping OTLs and actual ties together). 17 seasons, they've finished with a point% of .500 or better just 8 times. 8 times, in a period where OTLs make it easier to get to .500 in a season. That includes the 3-year period from 2009-10 to 2011-12 when the Coyotes went 135-78-33 and finally got out of the first round, a trip to the WCF where they got routed by the Kings. Back that 3-year stretch out, and they're 444-516-142 for an average 76.6 points a season.

That 3-year period? It was the 3-year period in the heart of all the bankruptcy proceedings when Balsillie attempted to purchase and relocate the team, leaving fans reluctant to invest in a team they had no idea whether it would stick around or not. Since then, they're 248-284-78 for an average 77.2 points a season. In other words: Coyotes fans for much of the past 17 years have been "treated" to a shitty on-ice product with a 3-year period that the team was good but "maybe they'll stay, maybe they'll go" tucked in there - and the last 8 seasons have been a lot of crap where the team is hopelessly out of the playoff chase early or plays its way out after a decent start, giving fans no reason to show up and drop their hard-earned dollars on the team.

There are very few markets in professional sports that will sell out year in and year out even though the team is shit. Outside of those markets, there's a pretty decent connection between team success and fan support. Phoenix isn't in the former; it's in the latter. Maybe let's see if the Coyotes can have something better than ~14 of 17 seasons of craptitude and no constant don't bother, they're going to leave at any time topped by a season interrupted by a global pandemic, and see if they can have success and maybe even a little playoff success that gets fans to warm up, show up, get invested and get attached long-term.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

Since 2002-03, across 1348 regular season games the Coyotes are 579-594-175 (lumping OTLs and actual ties together). 17 seasons, they've finished with a point% of .500 or better just 8 times. 8 times, in a period where OTLs make it easier to get to .500 in a season. That includes the 3-year period from 2009-10 to 2011-12 when the Coyotes went 135-78-33 and finally got out of the first round, a trip to the WCF where they got routed by the Kings. Back that 3-year stretch out, and they're 444-516-142 for an average 76.6 points a season.

That 3-year period? It was the 3-year period in the heart of all the bankruptcy proceedings when Balsillie attempted to purchase and relocate the team, leaving fans reluctant to invest in a team they had no idea whether it would stick around or not. Since then, they're 248-284-78 for an average 77.2 points a season. In other words: Coyotes fans for much of the past 17 years have been "treated" to a shitty on-ice product with a 3-year period that the team was good but "maybe they'll stay, maybe they'll go" tucked in there - and the last 8 seasons have been a lot of crap where the team is hopelessly out of the playoff chase early or plays its way out after a decent start, giving fans no reason to show up and drop their hard-earned dollars on the team.

There are very few markets in professional sports that will sell out year in and year out even though the team is shit. Outside of those markets, there's a pretty decent connection between team success and fan support. Phoenix isn't in the former; it's in the latter. Maybe let's see if the Coyotes can have something better than ~14 of 17 seasons of craptitude and no constant don't bother, they're going to leave at any time topped by a season interrupted by a global pandemic, and see if they can have success and maybe even a little playoff success that gets fans to warm up, show up, get invested and get attached long-term.

I agree. Its a similar situation down here in Florida. Outside of a couple decent seasons this decade, both teams haven't done anything consistently to warrant a strong fanbase. Tampa, Nashville, Vegas and even Dallas are always in the cup contention/playoff mix and in turn are relatively successful financially and in the seats. Give that same consistent success to markets such as Arizona and Florida and maybe things would be different. My worry is that Covid is going to hit Arizona and Florida pretty bad since they are already losing tons of money as it is.

 

[MNNumbers]

I won't copy the 2 above posts, because they are lengthy, while accurate.

As those who follow my posts know, I am not anxious to throw sand on any market. What is written about the 2 franchises in question is certainly true. The circumstances have made creating a foothold of fandom in those markets a difficult proposition. Coupled with the fact that Miami has a huge reputation for being a fickle sports market in ANY sport, and Phoenix traditionally hasn't fared better, it makes very good sense that attendance and 'interest' (however one defines that) have been not as robust as one would hope. This is an indictment on the ownership and the on-ice results as much as anything.

However, one must also admit that losses are losses, whatever their cause. What owners do with their franchises is usually determined at least a little bit by the bottom line. And, as HDD said, COVID is impacting the bottom line of a lot of people right now.

So, what I mean to say is, that in the unlikely event that there is a relocation (please notice I said UNLIKELY), the reasons would have to be that the present ownership in those 2 markets felt that they couldn't any more take the losses for the years necessary to build something (while mostly hoping to construct teams that would be good on a consistent basis).

A year ago, I would have sworn no one was going anywhere, and all the talk out of Phoenix was nothing. COVID has changed things, and now I say - Hey, we just don't know what's going to happen.

For example:
When can fans come back to the buildings?
What does the answer to that question do to the upcoming season?
If the upcoming season is shortened or abandoned, what does that do the media contract negotiations?
If the media contract doesn't rise as much as people expect, what does that do to franchise values?

There are simply a lot of questions, and we are in for a wild ride, and not only in Arizona, but league-wide.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

As those who follow my posts know, I am not anxious to throw sand on any market.
A year ago, I would have sworn no one was going anywhere, and all the talk out of Phoenix was nothing. COVID has changed things, and now I say - Hey, we just don't know what's going to happen.

No, no, it's a fair argument. Part of he original idea behind Westgate was that the area was going to explode growthwise like the other side of the valley did In the preceding decades. No one suspected the 2008 recession would arrive with the effects it had, hampering the predicted growth.

Of course, now one wonders if our local reclocationistas are now rooting for the coronavirus. Shows what kind of people they are.

 

[Slashers98]

So what did I miss over the past year or so?

 

[Pandemonia]

So what did I miss over the past year or so?

The country has Covid, WUSTL raised tuition, Star Trek Discovery totally rocks, plus a bunch of unimportant stuff.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

So what did I miss over the past year or so?

The country has Covid, WUSTL raised tuition, Star Trek Discovery totally rocks, plus a bunch of unimportant stuff.

ADD: America was able to watch the Super Bowl, Tom Hanks became an internet meme, there's a male governor with pierced nipples, some rich dude gave his kid a really dumb name, the Lakers won another NBA title, a team that was sub-.500 in the regular season almost made the World Series, the Cleveland Browns somehow started the season 4-1 and the New York Jets are worse than ever.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

The country has Covid, WUSTL raised tuition, Star Trek Discovery totally rocks, plus a bunch of unimportant stuff.

Star Trek: Lower Decks is better

 

[Llama19]

Glendale wants more commitment from Arizona Coyotes as city finally receives arena revenue

To quote:

"Glendale is asking for more commitment from the Arizona Coyotes as the city finally received its annual slice of revenue from Gila River Arena. The NHL team was months behind on rent and other payments.

City Manager Kevin Phelps recently told City Council members at a public meeting that he sent a letter to the Coyotes and ASM Global, which operates the city-owned arena, seeking a more long-term lease agreement.

"The current agreement does not work for the city ... and based on conversations I’ve had over the past several months, they appear also to not work for the Coyotes," Phelps said at the meeting. "It would be the hope and desire that we could kind of move away from the year-to-year nature of the agreement.""

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2020/11/05/glendale-wants-more-commitment-az-coyotes-finally-gets-revenue/6175863002/

 

[MNNumbers]

I can't wait to see how this turns out. Phelps isn't making any threats, it seems to me. He's just feeling as if the city needs a stronger commitment.

ASM would be happy about that, too, I'm sure.

What will the team do? I don't know. i don't suppose it's high on their list of priorities....

 

[mouser]

I completely understand Glendale wanting better financial numbers and certainty on term beyond year to year. Unfortunately the city is still holding the short end of the stick. Booting ASM or the Coyotes is unlikely to improve Glendale’s arena financial situation.

 

[Mightygoose]

Gutierrez mentioned shortly after he was brought on that moving away from the year to year lease could make better sense.

A new arena would be 2-3 years away in a good environment and with this being on the back burner so it seems, putting down some roots for a while makes sense.

Meruelo has owned the team for nearly a year and a half now. Even with Covid he should have a sense on the landscape by now.

Keeps going on the committed to Arizona line, another 1 year extension speaks volumes.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[TheLegend]

I can't wait to see how this turns out. Phelps isn't making any threats, it seems to me. He's just feeling as if the city needs a stronger commitment.

ASM would be happy about that, too, I'm sure.

What will the team do? I don't know. i don't suppose it's high on their list of priorities....

Phelps has been openly pushing to get the Coyotes to commit to a long term agreement since the city terminated the long term lease with Ice Arizona. Barroway wasn't going to do it given the city dropped that on him less than a year after he originally bought into IA and during the first meeting he even held with Glendale's mayor.

Meruelo did mention early on the Coyotes would consider Glendale as an option, but he didn't seem that enthused about it.

Gutierrez mentioned shortly after he was brought on that moving away from the year to year lease could make better sense.

A new arena would be 2-3 years away in a good environment and with this being on the back burner so it seems, putting down some roots for a while makes sense.

Meruelo has owned the team for nearly a year and a half now. Even with Covid he should have a sense on the landscape by now.

Keeps going on the committed to Arizona line, another 1 year extension speaks volumes.

Actions speak louder than words.

Building a privately funded arena elsewhere in Phoenix Metro would also speak volumes about commitment.

 

[Ernie]

It probably makes sense to sign for a few years. If Meruelo is currently having problems paying his bills I just don't see how he raises the funds for a new stadium, and it's pretty clear by now that nobody is going to build it for him.

You have to wonder whether the NHL has already fronted him his share of Seattle's expansion fee. I wouldn't be surprised if that has been done for a handful of teams already.

 

[Major4Boarding]

I re-opened this original thread and merged the new thread posts. This was done for continuity purposes. Continue...

 

[MNNumbers]

Concerning Killion,

Saying that he sounds "stoned or worse most of the time" is perhaps an indication that the person making the statement is new enough to hockey, and to sports business, that the person doesn't yet know how to appreciate the nuances of the business.

I will admit that I sometimes struggled to follow Killion. And, while many of us would think of him as a 'friend' or at least a strong 'acquaintance', I will also have to confess that he did face a couple of 'times out' from the forum do to posting without considering well enough how to say what he felt.

However, on balance, Killion brought to the forum a depth of knowledge of the history of the league and its owners, as well as some personal familiarity with people involved in some of the business, which is sorely missing now that he rarely shows himself.

Sure, his metaphors were of unique style. His knowledge also was and I suppose is yet unique. Exactly the kind of person you need on a business board.

Our board here needs information, not opinion. Anyone can 'have a take'. I come here because I want factual analysis. Not loudly spouted opinion. Those who bring that are greatly appreciated. Killion did that.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

I always enjoyed reading Killion's posts, even though sometimes it took four read-throughs to understand what he was getting at. It's too bad I never got to personally converse with him.