Coyotes Fans Only: Is Tippett(coaching staff) the Problem

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rt

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May 13, 2004
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What's more depressing than admitting Tippet sucks is admitting our prospect pool isn't as great as we though so maybe that's why so many of us dislike Tip.

Nope. It's because the game has passed him by and he's the least effective coach left in the NHL. We have a bunch of green horn rookie owners who are waaaaaaay the **** out of their depth. And their moronic extension of this lousy coach is probably a great indication of how they'll make all of their decisions and a really good precursor to our inevitable out of state relocation. It's not even Tippett's fault. Any real NHL team would've just fired him half way through last season. This group of scared ****less wannabes just handed him the keys. They don't know what the hell to do. Not his problem. But it is our problem. [mod]
 
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cobra427

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I am not sure I would have renewed his contract personally, but it is what it is, and we're probably stuck with it for a while. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. Are there better options available right now? Maybe, but not many if so. Is he an absolute train wreck that is dooming this franchise? No, and that's what what I'm trying to push back against.

My main argument for Tippett is that he's a known entity. Most of what makes a player a star in this league is on the player himself. There's little a coach can do to get him there. But it's very easy to ruin a player, and that comes more from personal mistreatment than from inconsistent usage. Players love Dave Tippett, and that is a good environment in which to develop players. We all know how the Turris episode went down, but as others have discussed, those wheels were in motion long before Tippett came aboard.

As I've said before, I could not care less about record this season. The focus should be on player development. That's extremely hard to assess over less than half a season, and it's asinine to judge it based on granular details game to game, especially when there are so many players vying for protected usage. Last year, we saw Domi, Duclair, Martinook, Murphy and Stone all raise their games to another level. This year, DeAngelo and Chychrun were bright spots out of the gate, Crouse is improving every night (a trajectory that has me eating crow), and Perlini has looked far better than I expected him to. Dvorak has had some ups and downs, but I was never as high on him as most folks seem to be, and he's coming along nonetheless.

Strome looked overmatched in nearly every appearance, but that appears to have been almost entirely physical, and he's now back in Erie working on his strength and skating. I said a few times this summer that they should have done that from the start, but I can respect that they gave him a shot anyway.

Basically, what I'm saying is: we're privy to so very little of the development process (most of which happens outside of game situations, let alone on the ice at all) that we can only really assess the results, and the results are not problematic. That some of these young guys have had struggles is to be expected, and there will be more to come.

The Eriksson example that everybody brings up is actually pretty illustrative. I have my doubts about how it actually went down given we're basing this account on very little substance, but let's say it happened the way Tippett's detractors describe it, which usually goes something like: Tippett was forcing Eriksson into too defensive a role and not giving him a chance to grow as an offensive player, management twisted his arm and told him to change up his usage, and then Eriksson finally unleashed his offensive ability. (Nevermind that his shooting percentage that year was 50% higher than his career average and almost 4 points higher than any other season in his career, or that it's not remotely uncommon for players to start hitting their offensive peak around age 23, his age at the start of that season.) Tippett saw things one way, management told him to change, and then he did. Isn't that what everyone keeps saying he's incapable of?

If the essence of all the different Tippett criticisms can be rolled into one point, it's that he's too rigid and stuck in his old ways. From what I can see, he's a very adaptive coach and approaches the game differently from how he did when he joined the organization. He certainly has flaws, but how can I take his critics seriously when they're more stuck in the past than he is?



Sloppy reading on my part. Sorry about that.

I agree with most of your analysis. We can all go back and forth on weather Tip is part of the problem or part of the solution. It really doesn't matter because it isn't going to change. Drummond/Tip/Chayka is in year one of the new structure. They will give the structure and Tip as the coach a few years to improve. They are all disappointed with the results so far this year, but I doubt any of them really expected way better results. We are 8 points out of a playoff spot with 50 games left. If we were 4 points out at this time, that would be sort of expected.

This is like the trade Mike Smith mantra a year after he signed a huge deal. Their bed was made then and they had to live with it. Nobody would take him and his salary in a trade even if they wanted to trade him. We are in the same boat with Tip. The only difference is that Mike Smith had much higher expectations he was missing. Signing Tip to the money and term was a long term decision that won't change after 32 games.
 

KG

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Sep 23, 2010
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I appreciate your analysis Pho. My only objection is that oftentimes a new coach is needed, they all have a shelf life, which was not addressed. But thank you for a well-reasoned post.
 

WrinkledPossum

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I think I'd like to see a coaching change just to stop the fire Dave Tippett talk and actually talk about something else.

I think if Tipp got fired we wouldn't see an immediate turnaround then people would start bashing IA, saying they don't know how to evaluate hockey personnel, don't put enough money into the team etc.

What's more depressing than admitting Tippet sucks is admitting our prospect pool isn't as great as we though so maybe that's why so many of us dislike Tip.

This season has actually made me think that, overall, our prospect pool is stronger than I thought it was at the start of the season. At the start I thought there were some big question marks surrounding our defensive prospects. But Chychrun and DeAngelo are now in the NHL, Wood is tearing up the AHL.

And most of forwards have impressed me too. Crouse has grown a lot this season. I wasn't sure if Perlini would be an NHLer, but he looks like he's gonna be a top 6 player. Fischer has also been doing very well in the AHL. I think he has like 6 goals in his last 10 periods(?) Dvorak is where I thought he would be pre-Vermette buyout. Strome is really the only that has disappointed, but he's still 19.

Any real NHL team would've just fired him half way through last season. This group of scared ****less wannabes just handed him the keys. They don't know what the hell to do. Not his problem. But it is our problem. Except for those who are basically just like them and make posts I can't view on this forum.

Half way through last season we were 2nd in the Pacific and were on pace for 92 points.
 

Lilhoody

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I was reading The Hockey News (august issue) and there is a story titled New Schools Of Thought. It is about the new wave of analytics in the game. At one point they talk about Mike Sullivan changing the Pens to a North south speed game and possession. Of course other teams follow suit. BUT there is a caution from Canucks coach Willie Desjardins, "as a coach you have to be careful because it's one thing to run a system with one team, and then all of a sudden you have different personnel, and the system won't work with different personnel. You always have to adjust what you are doing to your personnel."

DT needs to adjust what he is doing. What worked 6 or so years ago is not working with the players he has now.

To this I agree. While analytics are the future of sports, they are meaningless without leadership and chemistry.


Yeah, that was mostly based off of last night. Still room for more improvement though.

And yeah our PP has been garbage. It should be one of our strengths. We have guys with skill and lets a spot where we could use it. And it's not like we could turn the puck over and give up more SH goals than last year. Right now it relies too much on our dmen.

The PP is so poor I don't even get excited when they draw a penalty.
 

AZviaNJ

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Mar 31, 2011
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What's more depressing than admitting Tippet sucks is admitting our prospect pool isn't as great as we though so maybe that's why so many of us dislike Tip.
I don't agree.

Our prospect pool is very deep and talented...some players will develop quicker than others. While Strome may be progressing slower than some might hope (he is 19 remember), Chychrun, Deangelo and Crouse are major contributors in the NHL already. Dvo's coming on, Perlini is now back on track, Fischer's on fire in Tucson, Wood has 8 goals/22 points in Tucson, Keller's been hurt but has outstanding in limited time at BU, etc.

There may not be an elite player in the group like a Matthews or Laine, but it's too early to judge. We'll also add at least 1 additional high-end prospect in the spring.

Future is still bright.....if the kids are developed the right way.
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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What's more depressing than admitting Tippet sucks is admitting our prospect pool isn't as great as we though so maybe that's why so many of us dislike Tip.

Hence, how important the rebuild is and not necessarily throwing kids into the fire.

Yes, we have talent. No, we do not have the elite level of talent that is needed quite yet. How many times have we picked in the top 10 of drafts since 2006?

2006: Mueller (8)
2007: Turris (3)
2008: Boedker (8)
2009: Ekman-Larsson (6)

2015: Strome (3)
2016: Keller (7)

So we were 50% on players being stars in the league when drafting in the top 10 form 2006-2009. That's bad. These players wouldn't be drafted so high if they didn't know how to play. Is that Tippett sucking the life out of them? Turris is the only viable complaint there, but even in that case, there was a lot more behind the scenes with the player, as opposed to the coach.

We have actually had more success with first round picks recently, but those guys are in that 2nd or 3rd tier of players (Perlini, Domi). We can't and shouldn't expect Domi to be an equivalent of McDavid or Matthews, but some tend to think that, IMO.

Bottom line is that there was once a thought as to how loaded our prospect group was on D, and all we needed to do was find some offense. We went bargain basement for those players, and then found out that our D core that was supposed to help transition (Rundblad and Gormley specifically) were not as good as perceived.

It is one thing to develop incorrectly, but it may be another when you don't really have players to develop.
 

Dolemite

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Just gonna say this - he's got squat to work with. He can't develop players who can't keep up with the mental speed of the NHL.

Tippet does not play his players to their strengths.

Yes he does actually he doesn't have any talent that can be fully developed. He does have development success stories (Schlemko comes to mind) but there's nothing on the roster (outside the prospects on the roster) that can be fully developed.

This is a rebuilding year. Plain and simple.
 

_Del_

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Wait, he developed Schlemko? Well, then never-****ing-mind. Keep him. Definitely.
 

Dolemite

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Wait, he developed Schlemko? Well, then never-****ing-mind. Keep him. Definitely.

Develop doesn't mean he turns a player into a superstar. He turned his game from a non stop defensive liability into a regular NHL player.

When Tippett has players that can be molded into talented NHL players he excels.
 

The Feckless Puck

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I saw a stat the other night that was very illustrative of a Dave Tippett team.

The Coyotes are second in the entire NHL in hits.

Second.

They suck everywhere else, but they finish their checks, even if they're caught down ice doing it.

So there's that.
 

_Del_

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I saw a stat the other night that was very illustrative of a Dave Tippett team.

The Coyotes are second in the entire NHL in hits.

Second.

They suck everywhere else, but they finish their checks, even if they're caught down ice doing it.

So there's that.

Teams that never have the puck will frequently have more hits. If you possess the puck the whole game you end up with zero hits...
 

XX

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Develop doesn't mean he turns a player into a superstar. He turned his game from a non stop defensive liability into a regular NHL player.

When Tippett has players that can be molded into talented NHL players he excels.

Next you'll be singing a power ballad about Sami Lepisto. Come on man.
 

_Del_

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So many people have come and gone
Their faces fade as the years go by
Yet I still recall as I wander on
As clear as the sun in the summer sky

It's more than a feeling
When they play that old goal song they used to play
And I begin dreaming
until I see my Lepisto traded away

When the coach is stale and it's getting old
I hide in my music, forget the day
And dream of a defenseman I used to know
I closed my eyes, and he was traded away
Traded away

It's more than a feeling
When they play that old goal song they used to play
And I begin dreaming
until I see my Lepisto traded away
Traded away
 

CC96

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Next you'll be singing a power ballad about Sami Lepisto. Come on man.

So many people have come and gone
Their faces fade as the years go by
Yet I still recall as I wander on
As clear as the sun in the summer sky

It's more than a feeling
When they play that old goal song they used to play
And I begin dreaming
until I see my Lepisto traded away

When the coach is stale and it's getting old
I hide in my music, forget the day
And dream of a defenseman I used to know
I closed my eyes, and he was traded away
Traded away

It's more than a feeling
When they play that old goal song they used to play
And I begin dreaming
until I see my Lepisto traded away
Traded away

**** you two! These bantz are just too spicy tonight. :laugh:
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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A Rockwellian Pleasantville
FWIW as a "other problems are worse" voter, this argument is by far the most persuasive. If I wasn't already on team GTFO due to the FO coup this would surely move me there.


I had them pegged 23rd (81pts) in the league going into the year and obviously they are well under performing on that. But I don't think a new staff actually increases the team's performance standings wise this season.

In the same prediction thread I also mentioned that I saw last years team as having a lot of good fortune and a lot of what we're seeing is the opposite this season. Though Smith is playing out of his mind, just about everyone else isn't. I know you and others would partially or even completely attribute this to coaching. I don't much.

I am concerned about the approach in-game though with things like DeAngelo sitting. This is partially where I'd disagree with Pho's big post awhile back on how Tip will get blame for players in all circumstances. The issue with the Rundblad's of the world wasn't so much that Tippett ruined him, it was the approach. Was sitting him all the timethe best use of him? Even in a situation where Tip was 100% sure Rundblad was a lost cause and no shot to be a regular NHLer? I just don't believe any staff is THAT sure of their analysis. It doesn't even have to be a full season, give the player one of Tippett's famous 10 game segments for cryin out loud.

But I really don't believe in lost the room type theories at all when the team isn't established. When Dan Bylsma loses the Penguins? Yeah fine. More likely Hanzal is declining a tad due to wear and tear after peaking, Doan's lost whatever bit of tread he had on the tires, OEL is still 25 and inconsistent, Duclair's S% fell through the floor and his confidence was shattered, Domingue was a flash in the pan, Goligoski has his foot off the gas off his last big contract, Stone and Murphy's young careers are defined by inconsistency, and on and on. Most every player based argument has a clear counter because it's subjective.

These cases make sense to me:
1. Just standard accountability
2. The idea that a player can't play for Tip if they aren't a "complete" project.

The rest is a lot of noise that convolutes the argument. Especially if we're going all the way back to 2009.

I'm fine with just point 1. Let's hang our hats on that. He should be fired because he deserves it. And that's that.
 
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