Could another coach get more offense out of our horses?

[Stickpucker]

Title says it all. I'm not asking if we would have more wins, but do you think another coach could return Skinner to a 30g scorer? E.Staal to a 70 pt player? J.Staal to a 40 pt player?

If so which coach that is available?

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[Blueline Bomber]

Nope. The team, for the most part, is controlling the puck and putting shots on net. That's about all you could ask for from a coaching standpoint. Actually putting the puck INTO the net, that falls on the players.

 

[nobuddy]

yes.

the proof is in the pudding, i think. can't be a coincidence that ALL of our scorers have declined under Peters. Semin as well.

 

[bleedgreen]

No. Not even close. Estaal has been declining for a few years, Jordan has never shown an ounce of offense. Skinner is playing scared, but more defensively responsible than he ever has. Lindholm shouldn't have been in the NHL at 18, that's not Peters fault - Lindy improved his numbers last year under him.

This "system" issue has become comical. We suck because we've been playing a team that's close to AHL level the last few seasons. Estaal went from Cole and Stillman playing their close to best to Rask and Lindy figuring out the league, or Tlusty and Semin (combined two goals so far this season). Aside from Faulk it's debateable that any other guy on our D would be in the NHL this year. Liles has been solid but would anyone else have given him a chance at his salary? Would other team's have needed to play Hanifin? He's the only question mark, because he's obviously at least pretty damn close to deserving being here.

ALL our scorers? Aside from Skinner and Estaal who else is supposed be scoring more? We can't be expecting much from Jordan anymore. That sure as hell ain't Peters fault. Jordan wasn't scoring before him and has been getting plenty of icetime. He's shooting blanks, and you can tell on his face he's frustrated. How is that Peters fault?

We keep blaming and blaming. Ward is playing as well as he has in years, he's been legitimately good. This system hasn't "hampered" anyone. Estaal wasn't as good the second year under Muller. Skinner does what he wants offensively, he just isn't being effective or going with confidence to the areas he used to. Last night he had many chances and couldn't finish them. Some were chances he could score in his sleep when he was younger. Peters didn't unlearn his ability to tuck it under the bar from three feet.

We don't have any other scorers, and no one"declined" under Peters other than Skinner - which isn't a system thing. Semin started downhill the second year under Muller as did Tlusty. Tlusty is a smart possession player, which is Peters style. How did the system inhibit him? Semin went downhill his second year here IMO and never really stopped, all Peters did was call him out for the obvious lack of anything. He wouldn't attack the zone with speed, he wouldn't drive the net, he slowed the play down in the neutral zone....and he didn't score his third goal of the season until sometime in 2015. That's Peters?

Peters is the best coach we've had since at least Lavi, who was the best coach we'd had since I can't remember.

 

[Quacktastic]

Nope. The team, for the most part, is controlling the puck and putting shots on net. That's about all you could ask for from a coaching standpoint. Actually putting the puck INTO the net, that falls on the players.

They're "controlling" play without scoring chances though. We're getting a lot of shots because we can move the puck around the outside of the zone and eventually fling a shot at an unscreened goalie from far out. Yes, it's "possession" but I don't know if it's particularly useful for our team to play this style considering we don't have the players who will fight to the front of the net to block the goalie's sight and fight for rebounds. The positive of this style is that any time we spend is their zone is time that we don't have to defend in our zone, and we do seem to limit odd man rushes against us by limiting risk taking. However I'm not sure if these positives outweigh the negatives created by limiting offensive creativity.

To answer the OP's question, I'm not sure if a different coach could get more out of this current team. Perhaps someone like Lavi/Boudreau could help our offense get going but that might come at the expense of defense, leaving us no better off. I think we're simply too untalented to really do any damage aside from having a lucky year like the Flames/Avs have had recently. And look where those two teams are now, right where we are.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think another coach could give certain players better offensive statistics, yes.

Could another coach win significantly more games with this group? No.

 

[Ole Gil]

I think a narrative is hanging around that no longer fits. They are creating good scoring chances. It's not the quality or quantity of the chances any more. It's the players inability to convert.

 

[Quacktastic]

I think a narrative is hanging around that no longer fits. They are creating good scoring chances. It's not the quality or quantity of the chances any more. It's the players inability to convert.

I'd disagree with you on this point.

Skinner I think does fit into your description, but the rest of the team really doesn't generate good quality/quantity of chances. Faulk, while I think he's doing too much at times is at least converting near the level he should be.

It seems like most times I see intermission statistics we're usually about equal or ahead in shots but well behind in terms of scoring chances.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Our horses? Lol. Ponies maybe?

 

[HisIceness]

I don't even think Scotty Bowman could coach this group into winners.

 

[Cane mutiny]

Maybe Scotty Bowman would see this team as his ultimate challenge and come out of retirement

 

[Unsustainable]

Can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

 

[cptjeff]

We have several forwards- Staal and Skinner chief among them, who traditionally created quite a lot of goals in transition. Peters basically doesn't allow players to make the sort of plays in transition that lead to goals, he expects players to establish possession in the zone and generate chances by cycling and the occasional overload play to shift defenses and open lanes. Much safer defensively, but it's fairly obvious that we don't have the players to generate much offense that way.

Could a run and gun coach who pushed players to make plays and take risks in transition to generate scoring get more offense out of this team? Unquestionably. Would that expose an already questionable defense to far more pressure? No question there, as well.

Remember what Laviolette did to the Preds. The consensus was that that team was offensively inept, that they could only win with stifling defense, and there were a lot of people questioning the hire. He got offense- instantly- by moving from a defensive possession, zone game to a transition one. It hurt their defense. But it got better results for that lineup. That style got results for us too, once upon a time.

So yeah, a coach other than Peters likely could get a lot more offense out of this lineup. But it would come at a cost- I don't know that a team that has Michal Jordan as a regular on D can really afford to sacrifice on defensive effectiveness in its system. For now, I think Peters' system is probably best.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

^ I think that, to me is the answer in a nutshell. Yes, another coach could probably get more offense out of this group, but it would come at the expense of something else, which would likely not end up in more wins (or at least not enough to make a difference). That's all talking even strength.

PP is terrible also, but haven't watched it closely enough in recent games to comment on whether it's the coaching, the lack of talent (more likely) or both.

 

[Joe McGrath]

In fairness to the Laviolette example, the prior regime didn't have Neal,Ribero, and Foresberg who are all much better offensive players than anyone on the prior seasons roster.

 

[caniac247]

Like some others have said, another coach could get more offense, but then the defense would suffer. So instead of losing games 2-1 or 1-0, we'll be losing them 5-4, etc.

One just has to look and admit that this team just isn't very good and hasn't been for many years. But what do you expect when your owner puts the team on a strict internal budget. There is no money to spend on free agents who could help the team. Instead we are stuck with guys who are playing top 6 here, who would be on the 4th line on other teams. We would rather go cheap and over slot guys, then actually pay a decent free agent or 2.

The team just sucks. So the players have either got to figure it out, or go somewhere else, which Frances has already stated over the summer. You either commit to Peters or you leave, but he isn't changing the coach.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don't get this concept that the system doesn't allow offense off the rush and is primarily based off cycling. Skinner, Gerbe, and any other offensive minded player seem to drive the net all they want when they have a little time and space. The system absolutely pushes for more possession vs throwing it away, but I don't see skinner not taking the puck at the d and forcing possession in some way unnatural to him.

 

[GoldiFox]

Peters' system gives this miserable team a chance to stay in games. Unfortunately winning 35 games instead of 30 doesn't really matter.

It's sad that I would prefer a riskier run-n-gun offense. They'd lose more games but they would be more interesting. They could play 6 skaters all game all year and maintain the same Playoff odds.

 

[tarheelhockey]

One just has to look and admit that this team just isn't very good and hasn't been for many years. But what do you expect when your owner puts the team on a strict internal budget.

IMO the internal budget isn't really the issue here at all. This is a team that committed to nearly $13 million for Tomas Kaberle, just to watch him float around doing nothing. This is a team that spent $7 million to bring in Alex Semin, then committed to another $35 million to keep him, and finally ate $14 million just to make him NOT play for us. This is a team that made Eric Staal the 11th highest paid player in the league at the END of his contract. This is a team that's made Cam Ward the 7th highest paid goalie in the league and there's not even consensus that he should be in net most nights.

The problem is that Jim Rutherford's legacy of brutal budgetary decisions is still haunting this team. I don't blame Karmanos one iota for drawing in the purse strings right now. What good would it have done this team to make a big splash by throwing millions at Drew Stafford and Justin Williams? Or even to bring Tlusty back, or to throw huge money at Sekera for that matter? There'd be no point, given that we'd still be just as far away from having a contending team.

 

[Ole Gil]

If the Canes can get enough 4 on 1's a game, they might be able to generate a shot on goal.

 

[Ole Gil]

In fairness to the Laviolette example, the prior regime didn't have Neal,Ribero, and Foresberg who are all much better offensive players than anyone on the prior seasons roster.

The other part of the Nashville equation, is that when the risky offense gives up a chance the other way, it'll be Josi/Weber/Jones and company with Rinne in net trying to stop them. Not Ryan Murphy and Ward/Lack.

 

[Cane mutiny]

So, is it time to give up the ghost and finally let Estaal walk? Does anyone think even if he would sign for a discount, that he would keep the team from moving forward on some level?

 

[Stickpucker]

If you want to look at our players from a value standpoint would it not be better to lose 4 to 5 than 1 to 2? That way we could sell Staal as a 70 pt player at deadline rather than a 50 pt player? If we decided to move Skins, and I'm not advocating it, we would get a ton more for a 24 yr old 30g scorer than what he is currently achieving.

 

[cptjeff]

I don't get this concept that the system doesn't allow offense off the rush and is primarily based off cycling. Skinner, Gerbe, and any other offensive minded player seem to drive the net all they want when they have a little time and space. The system absolutely pushes for more possession vs throwing it away, but I don't see skinner not taking the puck at the d and forcing possession in some way unnatural to him.

A single player might drive the net, but you're not having 3 guys diving in full speed to support that rush, like a transition system would. Instead, they'll let the one guy go to the net while pulling up at the blue line/going to the boards or staying near the circles to secure the zone and prevent breaks the other way. You can let the one or two guys go in, but the rest of the team doesn't drive in right after them to sustain that pressure in front of the net. You're not having forwards break in the neutral zone for a long two line stretch pass- you're working the puck up much more slowly through the neutral zone, so you're rarely coming in with that much speed, and very few breakaways. And even with the puckholder coming in, they're encouraged to dump and chase in marginal situations, or to pull up and hold until more support comes into the zone. A lot of plays that would be drives to the net in other systems aren't in Peters'.

You're right that they do still drive the net if they have clear time and space to do it, but they don't try to barrel through in higher risk situations, as many other teams do- which risks turnovers, but also generates offensive pressure that we're not generating. No system is ever all one thing all the time- it's about how frequently teams do one thing or other, and in what situations.

 

[cptjeff]

The other part of the Nashville equation, is that when the risky offense gives up a chance the other way, it'll be Josi/Weber/Jones and company with Rinne in net trying to stop them. Not Ryan Murphy and Ward/Lack.

Yup. With better defensive players and goaltending, you can put more pressure on them and count on them to be able to handle it. If you put that same kind of pressure on our D, it would most likely implode spectacularly. We're playing a defensive system to mitigate our weakness there- in a few years, with Faulk/Hanifin/Fluery all up to speed, we'll be able to take all sorts of offensive risks and trust them to handle the fallout, but right now Faulk is really the only one I'd really trust putting under that kind of load.