Speculation: Copp & Compher vs. Mantha & Bertuzzi

[Henkka]

Took this from the Compher thread.

Which of the combo would you prefer? All players are from same draft.

1st round, 2013, 20th overall, W Anthony Mantha
2nd round 2013, 35th overall, C JT Compher
2nd round 2013, 58th overall, W Tyler Bertuzzi
4th round 2013, 104th overall, C Andrew Copp

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[Our Lady Peace]

All from the same draft lol

Mantha was exponentially frustrating and a band aid despite having a big size advantage over the rest. Love Bert but he's a middle 6 winger without good talent centering him and he's also oft-injured

Copp and Compher play more important positions and bring reliable two-way games. I value that more in the middle 6. Compher has missed some time too, but I'd rather have him busting his ass

Right now:
Copp > Bertuzzi
Compher > Mantha

 

[jkutswings]

Copp and Compher. But saying you prefer a colonoscopy over a broken bone doesn't mean that getting a colonoscopy is a great experience.

I happen to think that Copp gets more flack than he deserves, while Compher will end up a worse version of Copp. Yet I'll take two guys that are boring yet dependable over two that can't stay in the lineup to begin with.

 

[ricky0034]

Mantha and Bertuzzi are both on 1 year deals at this point

Copp and Compher you're stuck with for 4-5 years

 

[Henkka]

These trade tree discussions are also fun.

At 2013 draft, Holland traded 18th overall down --> to get 20th overall Mantha + 58th overall Bertuzzi.

Yzerman traded Bertuzzi to BOS for 1st + 4th --> traded those picks to DeBrincat.

Yzerman also tried to go after another promising scorer, trading Mantha --> Vrana, but that become off-ice mess.

Even if the Vrana-case did blow up so bad, it's remarakle what Yzerman has been doing with the other assets get from the Mantha-trade.

 

[Henkka]

So on right, Tyler Bertuzzi --> 1st + 4th --> Kubalik and Sebrango added --> is now Alex DeBrincat.

On left side, we have:
- Cossa
- Walman
- 2023 4th (LD Larry Keenan)
- 2023 2nd (RD Andrew Gibson)

 

[ricky0034]

View attachment 729210

So on right, Tyler Bertuzzi --> 1st + 4th --> Kubalik and Sebrango added --> is now Alex DeBrincat.

On left side, we have:
- Cossa
- Walman
- 2023 4th (LD Larry Keenan)
- 2023 2nd (RD Andrew Gibson)

that Walman+2nd+4th bit is a bit silly considering Panik was so clearly not the main piece in that Leddy trade or even really much of a piece in it in general

he never even played a single game in the NHL again after leaving Detroit

 

[Henkka]

that Walman+2nd+4th bit is a bit silly considering Panik was so clearly not the main piece in that Leddy trade or even really much of a piece in it in general

he never even played a single game in the NHL again after leaving Detroit

Yeah, just funny how there's the connection.

So, instead of:
- Mantha
- Bertuzzi
- Sebrango
- Kubalik (free asset as former free agent)

We have:
- 2 middle6 centers (Copp & Compher)
- 1st line winger (DeBrincat)
- Top4 defenceman (Walman)
- Top goalie prospect (Cossa)
- 2 defenceman prospects (Gibson and Keenan)
- Winger prospect (Buchelnikov)
- 7th round pick

 

[dalem177]

I like & miss Bert. I hated every second Mantha was slowly cruising around like a driverless zamboni. Copp's fine. Compher I know nothing about. So I'm fine with C&C.

 

[Ricelund]

I don't get the Mirco Mueller at the top?

The Wings traded pick #18 (Mueller) for #20 (Mantha) and #58 (Bertuzzi) at the draft that year.

 

[kliq]

If Mantha was putting 100% effort in every single game, and Bertuzzi wasnt injured every 30 games, to me its a no brainer. Problem is, thats not that the case. For those reasons, I chose Copp and JT.

 

[lilidk]

Bert Larkin Mantha better than Campher Larkin Copp. Separately probably opposite.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

C&C because they both want to play here.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Bert and Mantha easily because we wouldn't be locked in long term.

 

[RabidBadger]

The U of Michigan dudes. I liked Bert but Mantha was a lousy bum.

 

[RRhoads]

I think both Compher and Copp were signed for a year too long. They will probably both be moved to the wing during their stay here.

 

[N0cturne]

I happen to think that Copp gets more flack than he deserves, while Compher will end up a worse version of Copp.

I tend to agree, and last year I wont say Copp played well down the stretch, but he was okay after fully recovering from his off-season procedure. Will be interesting to see how he looks this year after not having to rehab all summer.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Would like JT and Copp more if they had a year less and about a million less on each deal.

9 goals from someone making 5 mil aint enough which we got from Copp last year. I hope Copp gets to 20 this year or close to it, we need that. I worry Compher's drop off from being with the Avs will produce similiar results.

If your two and three Cs are making 10+ mil, you should get around 40 goals. The closer they get to that number, they better the Wings playoff chances get. If they can't, then Kasper and Danielson need hurry up and replace them.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Would like JT and Copp more if they had a year less and about a million less on each deal.

9 goals from someone making 5 mil aint enough which we got from Copp last year. I hope Copp gets to 20 this year or close to it, we need that. I worry Compher's drop off from being with the Avs will produce similiar results.

If your two and three Cs are making 10+ mil, you should get around 40 goals. The closer they get to that number, they better the Wings playoff chances get. If they can't, then Kasper and Danielson need hurry up and replace them.

Dude they’re paid what they are worth. Stop thinking like it’s 2016 or 2017 and Holland is throwing top line money at bottom 6 players like Helm and Abby. 5.1 mil is about equivalent cap percentage to what Helm made while being a worse player than Compher.

Copp needs to score more goals for sure. Hopefully he recovered his shot after a full year since his core surgery.
Compher was receiving Selke votes and someone previously posted the numbers that his xGF was as good without Rantanen as it was with.

If both combine for 35+ goals and 85+ points while playing solid D then we’re good.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

If both combine for 35+ goals and 85+ points while playing solid D then we’re good.

Isn't that kind of what I said?

But if we only get 20 goals out of those two this year, our offensive woes will continue and then they aren't playing to the level of their contracts.

 

[Henkka]

Isn't that kind of what I said?

But if we only get 20 goals out of those two this year, our offensive woes will continue and then they aren't playing to the level of their contracts.

Our goal-scoring isn't really very much on their shoulders.

They are probably the 7th and 8th best/most important and potential goalscorers on next season team.

After Larkin, DeBrincat, Raymond, Perron, Fabbri and Sprong.

Copp and Compher are more of living through assists and good defence. But 30-35 goals for them is pure realism.

 

[lomekian]

Ultimately, its not C & C or B & M - its C & C + Cossa, Debrincat, Walman, Gibson and Keenan, Buchelnikov & a 7th round pick (and £2.5m salary retention) instead of Bert & Mantha (& Sebrango). When you look at like that its easy.

When Bert, Mantha and Larkin were hot they were a special special line. Sadly Mantha without the other two looks pretty mediocre, and Bert just can't stay fit. Even without the extras, Copp and Compher are useful multi-position guys who probably retain decent value as assets, and will likely generate more picks come their last contract years.

 

[Snuggs]

Going to win more face offs with C+C vs B+M.

 

[Henkka]

When Bert, Mantha and Larkin were hot they were a special special line. Sadly Mantha without the other two looks pretty mediocre, and Bert just can't stay fit. Even without the extras, Copp and Compher are useful multi-position guys who probably retain decent value as assets, and will likely generate more picks come their last contract years.

Also, the reality is, that Copp and Compher have scored 180 combined points on last 2 seasons, when Mantha and Bert have 142 combined points.

142p/222games = 0..639 ppg
180p/306 games = 0.588 ppg

Mantha and Bert have been slightly better scorers per game (mostly thanks to Bert), but they aren't keeping healthy. Copp and Compher can complete 82-game seasons, which is a pretty big thing at success. They have also the bigger defensive duty as Centers.

Mantha had abysmal last season, scoring only 27 points at 67 games. A guy like Daniel Sprong (very one dimensional winger) just almost doubled that scoring.

Mantha, 67 games, 11+16=27 points, -8
Sprong, 66 games, 21+25=46 points, +13

----

I really have to admire, how Yzerman saw/planned this big picture how to evolve the situation and fix the center core. Trade these winger assets, when they still had value. He did transfer the value on another positions. Not especially on centers. Wingers, picks, defence, prospects. And on two free agencies, he was able so fill those needed Center slots with good options (2nd best quality Center on both free agencies, Copp after Kadri and Compher after ROR)), which are still, imo, pretty young, and we'll get their final prime years, until they are 32 year old.

Now those guys are in here, and at same time we have finally those new kid centers drafted in the systems. They are not ready or pressured to take any kind of torch for this team, but will be in few years. You kind of see the timelines, Kasper and Danielson ELCs are the growing years for them and Copp and Compher, behind 1st star Larkin, are the Center backbone for this team, before the kids are really ready to take the torch.

 

[Ulysses31]

Bert is my favorite player in the league but mantha is way too streaky/inconsistent, voted good copp Bad comp