Cooperstown 2024

[Cas]

Sabathia will make it within three years.

 

[Voight]

I think Mauer gets in on the first ballot. Great player in his prime and i think his aura of "overly nice midwestern boy who played for his hometown team" is going to put him just over the top.

Don't really have a problem with it. If he gets in on the first go then i have to imagine Posey does especially since he has the rings on his resume.

Posey is arguably the best catcher of his generation so he should get in first ballot regardless.

I agree with your point on Mauer. He was always a nice guy and that seems to be important since its journalists voting for you.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Posey is arguably the best catcher of his generation so he should get in first ballot regardless.

I agree with your point on Mauer. He was always a nice guy and that seems to be important since its journalists voting for you.

I dont disagree, I find it funny how the voters pick and choose when to apply the same criteria though.

IMO, Posey and Pedroia are 2 sides of the same coin. Arguably the best C and 2B of their era with near mirror image HOF resumes and careers cut short by a controversial injury, but Pedroia will be an afterthought in the voting.

Posey: 1x MVP, ROY, 5x Silver Slugger, 1x Gold Glove, 3x WS winner, 44.9 WAR in 1,371 games
Pedroia: 1x MVP, ROY, 1x Silver Slugger, 4x Gold Glove, 2x WS winner, 51.9 WAR in 1,512 games

 

[Cas]

I dont disagree, I find it funny how the voters pick and choose when to apply the same criteria though.

IMO, Posey and Pedroia are 2 sides of the same coin. Arguably the best C and 2B of their era with near mirror image HOF resumes and careers cut short by a controversial injury, but Pedroia will be an afterthought in the voting.

Posey: 1x MVP, ROY, 5x Silver Slugger, 1x Gold Glove, 3x WS winner, 44.9 WAR in 1,371 games
Pedroia: 1x MVP, ROY, 1x Silver Slugger, 4x Gold Glove, 2x WS winner, 51.9 WAR in 1,512 games

Posey ranks higher among catchers all time than Pedroia does among second basemen all time.

I have Posey at #12 among catchers, smack in the middle of the legitimate HOF guys. I have Pedroia at #20 among second basemen, at the tail end of the HOF group, between Chuck Knoblauch and Ben Zobrist.

Of course, Pedroia does rank ahead of a number of HOF second basemen - Herman, Fox, Lazzeri, Doerr, Schoendist, McPhee, Evers, and Mazeroski - and even a bunch of Hall of Merit guys (several of the above plus Randolph, Childs, and Richardson). But I don't think it's that good of a comparison.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Mauer is not a Hofer.

You're not a HOFer

 

[Elvis P]

Joe Mauer- 2123 Hits, 143 HR, .306 Lifetime BA, MVP, 6X all-star, 3X Gold Glove, 5X Silver Slugger, 3X Batting title (Only Catcher to ever have this many).

Buster Posey- 1500 Hits, 158 HR, .302 Lifetime BA, MVP, ROY, 7X All Star, 3X WS, Gold Glove, 4X Silver Slugger, Batting Title.

 

[Voight]

View attachment 800734

Joe Mauer- 2123 Hits, 143 HR, .306 Lifetime BA, MVP, 6X all-star, 3X Gold Glove, 5X Silver Slugger, 3X Batting title (Only Catcher to ever have this many).

Buster Posey- 1500 Hits, 158 HR, .302 Lifetime BA, MVP, ROY, 7X All Star, 3X WS, Gold Glove, 4X Silver Slugger, Batting Title.

..... ok?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

 

[Blitzkrug]

..... ok?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Niether does he.

 

[Neutrinos]

..... ok?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Maybe they weren't trying to make a point, they were simply comparing their resumes

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Joe Mauer- 2123 Hits, 143 HR, .306 Lifetime BA, MVP, 6X all-star, 3X Gold Glove, 5X Silver Slugger, 3X Batting title (Only Catcher to ever have this many).

Buster Posey- 1500 Hits, 158 HR, .302 Lifetime BA, MVP, ROY, 7X All Star, 3X WS, Gold Glove, 4X Silver Slugger, Batting Title.

Catcher C

2,043 hits, 188 HR, .280 Lifetime BA

Why is Catcher C not worthy of HOF?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Catcher C

2,043 hits, 188 HR, .280 Lifetime BA

Why is Catcher C not worthy of HOF?

Because that’s a very limited picture of a players career. AJ isn’t close to either Posey or Mauer in terms of defence or overall offense.

Gets a lot clearer when you throw in OBP, SLG, OPS+

AJ has like 3000 more plate appearance and 700 more games than Posey and half the WAR

 

[Blitzkrug]

Only BWC would unironically argue for f***ing AJ Pierzynski as a hall of fame candidate.

Can we put Vernon Wells in while we're at it? He has 5 more WAR than AJ which means he's super qualified.

 

[Voight]

Catcher C

2,043 hits, 188 HR, .280 Lifetime BA

Why is Catcher C not worthy of HOF?

Pierzynski? really?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

There is no rhyme or reason as to why A-Rod and Manny are kept out. But my guess is neither of them get in this way unless they start inducting the guys from the juiced era, which they should. If that is the case then there are a lot of guys past their 10 years of eligibility that belong. We all know the names, and only Curt Schilling is a name that wasn't involved or suspected in steroids or gambling (Rose, Shoeless). There is just bizarre grudges the BHOF has with some players. I suspect A-Rod will continue to have things held against him. So if you are wondering if I believe the juiced stars should get in then yes I believe it.

As for pitchers, no doubt Pettitte belongs. I'd put him in this year as well.

Can't put Manny and A-Rod in there if Bonds and Clemens isn't in.

Baseball HOF is dumb and meaningless.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Catcher C

2,043 hits, 188 HR, .280 Lifetime BA

Why is Catcher C not worthy of HOF?

Because...

23.8 WAR
94 OPS+
Only individual trophy is 1 Silver Slugger. No Gold Gloves, no MVP consideration, etc.

Hell, Jason Varitek has a higher career WAR and OPS+ than AJ. I love Tek as a Sox fan, but I'd never call him a HOF level player

Can't put Manny and A-Rod in there if Bonds and Clemens isn't in.

Baseball HOF is dumb and meaningless.

That and Manny and A-Rod have actual steroids suspensions. Easier to play the steroids moral card there.

 

[Crosby2010]

Can't put Manny and A-Rod in there if Bonds and Clemens isn't in.

Baseball HOF is dumb and meaningless.

You put them all in. They were all Hall of Famers.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You put them all in. They were all Hall of Famers.

Agreed. But they won't. At least not anytime soon.

 

[MS]

Mauer is obviously getting in and I'm not sure how there's any real debate.

 

[Crosby2010]

Agreed. But they won't. At least not anytime soon.

That's the problem with baseball. They can't write their history without the players they have omitted. Rose, Shoeless Joe gambled, or allegedly with Shoeless. But look at the in your face gambling on TV and in ads today. It is sick.

Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Manny, Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire, etc. just like the above two are part of baseball history. Try telling the story of baseball without these men. Curt Schilling did neither of these and they just don't seem to like his "go to the beat of my own drum" mentality. But man oh man if there is a pitcher who is a Hall of Famer it is Curt. Baseball goes the other way of hockey, they are too strict and they hold grudges.

But Bud Selig, the guy who oversaw the steroid era and helped cancel the 1994 World Series is in there.

 

[EpochLink]

Bonds and Clemens can be voted in by the veterans committee now since their eligibility is up.

f*** the BBWA voters, all old and all turning a blind eye as they voted in players whom were tied down to steroids for years yet they get a pass.

 

[Cas]

That's the problem with baseball. They can't write their history without the players they have omitted. Rose, Shoeless Joe gambled, or allegedly with Shoeless. But look at the in your face gambling on TV and in ads today. It is sick.

Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Manny, Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire, etc. just like the above two are part of baseball history. Try telling the story of baseball without these men. Curt Schilling did neither of these and they just don't seem to like his "go to the beat of my own drum" mentality. But man oh man if there is a pitcher who is a Hall of Famer it is Curt. Baseball goes the other way of hockey, they are too strict and they hold grudges.

But Bud Selig, the guy who oversaw the steroid era and helped cancel the 1994 World Series is in there.

Getting a plaque has nothing whatsoever to do with "writing the history of baseball." It is an honor for the person. The history is presented in the museum, which includes Jackson, Rose, Bonds, McGwire, etc, along with plenty of other people whose contributions are utterly indispensable to the history of the sport, but who do not in any way deserve a plaque.

You cannot tell the story of baseball without Fred Merkle, but no one argues that Merkle deserves a plaque.

Pete Rose was a self-aggrandizing rapist who broke the cardinal rule of baseball because he is an arrogant SOB who does not believe that rules apply to him, and then has had the temerity to lie about it, over and over again, changing his story whenever it suits him. The man has been treated far too leniently by baseball over the years - what he deserves is damnatio memorae, the utter degradation of his memory. No plaques, no retired numbers, no anniversary teams, no ballpark recognition, nothing. Baseball should tell the Reds to never mention or recognize Rose again. Baseball should tell the shops in Cooperstown to bar Rose's annual HOF autograph sessions. I might go so far as to demand that Rose be burned in effigy, save that in the future credulous morons might start viewing Rose as some kind of noble resistance figure.

Joe Jackson was also guilty - he knew about the scheme to throw the World Series, conspired with the ringleaders, took the money, and thought he could get away with it. He told the truth, as best as well can tell, to the Cook County grand jury, and then tried to take it back because he suddenly faced real consequences for his actions. He blatantly perjured himself in a subsequent civil trial when he sued the White Sox for salary he believed was owed him, and then spent the rest of his life lying about his actions. He deserved his ban and deserves far more scorn than he gets, thanks to bad journalism on the part of Eliot Asinof, and favorable media coverage due to the myth of Jackson's persona.

We do not need to honor these people. We certainly don't need to honor them to remember them and their actions.

 

[Crosby2010]

Getting a plaque has nothing whatsoever to do with "writing the history of baseball." It is an honor for the person. The history is presented in the museum, which includes Jackson, Rose, Bonds, McGwire, etc, along with plenty of other people whose contributions are utterly indispensable to the history of the sport, but who do not in any way deserve a plaque.

You cannot tell the story of baseball without Fred Merkle, but no one argues that Merkle deserves a plaque.

Pete Rose was a self-aggrandizing rapist who broke the cardinal rule of baseball because he is an arrogant SOB who does not believe that rules apply to him, and then has had the temerity to lie about it, over and over again, changing his story whenever it suits him. The man has been treated far too leniently by baseball over the years - what he deserves is damnatio memorae, the utter degradation of his memory. No plaques, no retired numbers, no anniversary teams, no ballpark recognition, nothing. Baseball should tell the Reds to never mention or recognize Rose again. Baseball should tell the shops in Cooperstown to bar Rose's annual HOF autograph sessions. I might go so far as to demand that Rose be burned in effigy, save that in the future credulous morons might start viewing Rose as some kind of noble resistance figure.

Joe Jackson was also guilty - he knew about the scheme to throw the World Series, conspired with the ringleaders, took the money, and thought he could get away with it. He told the truth, as best as well can tell, to the Cook County grand jury, and then tried to take it back because he suddenly faced real consequences for his actions. He blatantly perjured himself in a subsequent civil trial when he sued the White Sox for salary he believed was owed him, and then spent the rest of his life lying about his actions. He deserved his ban and deserves far more scorn than he gets, thanks to bad journalism on the part of Eliot Asinof, and favorable media coverage due to the myth of Jackson's persona.

We do not need to honor these people. We certainly don't need to honor them to remember them and their actions.

I will say that is pretty harsh. Jackson just so we know batted .375 during the World Series and made no errors in the field. He was an illiterate farm boy. I am not saying he knew or didn't know, I am just saying that at what point do you start looking at his on field contributions and give him credit for that? Eddie Cicotte was denied his bonus for the chance to win 30 games that season. I am not saying that is an excuse, but it does make you realize that this was likely the time that he fell in with the gamblers. Sometimes the owners get a clear slate on these things too but they aided this situation too. Plus Jackson is 3rd all-time on the career batting average list. It's been 100 years already. And with the way sports is so in your face with the gambling - during the game - it just makes you realize even more that there could be a cloud of corruption out there that goes well beyond a single player.

Plus even in the Hall of Fame you would be surprised at the lack of mention of guys like Bonds or Clemens or A-Rod. Even McGwire and Sosa. They haven't taken Roberto Alomar's plaque down, but an employee did tell me that they deliberately erased some things within the museum about him because of his off field stuff after his career. The problem is things get too political and go beyond sports and it doesn't have to be that way. It should be judged on how they played the game. Fred Merkle is famous for one thing, and that is always a story to tell, but he was never a Hall of Famer player. These guys were.

 

[Elvis P]

1. Adrian Beltre, 98.9%, 173 votes
2. Joe Mauer, 83.4%, 146 votes
3. Todd Helton, 82.9%, 145 votes
4. Billy Wagner, 80.0%, 140 votes
5. Gary Sheffield, 73.7%, 129 votes
6. Andruw Jones, 72.0%, 126 votes
7. Carlos Beltran, 66.9%, 117 votes
8. Chase Utley, 43.4%, 76 votes
9. Alex Rodriguez, 39.4%, 69 votes
10. Manny Ramirez, 36.0%, 63 votes

We know 175 votes and don't know 209. Those are the 175.

 

[Cas]

I will say that is pretty harsh. Jackson just so we know batted .375 during the World Series and made no errors in the field. He was an illiterate farm boy. I am not saying he knew or didn't know, I am just saying that at what point do you start looking at his on field contributions and give him credit for that? Eddie Cicotte was denied his bonus for the chance to win 30 games that season. I am not saying that is an excuse, but it does make you realize that this was likely the time that he fell in with the gamblers. Sometimes the owners get a clear slate on these things too but they aided this situation too. Plus Jackson is 3rd all-time on the career batting average list. It's been 100 years already. And with the way sports is so in your face with the gambling - during the game - it just makes you realize even more that there could be a cloud of corruption out there that goes well beyond a single player.

So, a lot of this is widely believed, but are actually myths.

Cicotte was never denied a bonus - he actually got two chances to win his 30th game in 1917, and blew both of them. He and his teammates were actually paid quite well by MLB standards at the time - he and Chick Gandil just got greedy (indeed, Gandil probably kept money meant for the other players and blamed the guys backing them).

Jackson was functionally illiterate, but not stupid - he later became a successful businessman. He did have his wife read and write for him, but he wasn't some Forrest Gump-esque character. He knew exactly what he was doing.

We know Jackson was guilty of participating in the fix and taking the money, because that's what he admitted to doing in sworn testimony to a grand jury. That he later spent the rest of his life lying about it doesn't invalidate his participation in a conspiracy, for which he was justifiably banned. It doesn't matter how well he performed - he was in on the fix, took the money for it, and got banned, which makes him permanently ineligible regardless of his performance, and rightly so.

 

[Crosby2010]

So, a lot of this is widely believed, but are actually myths.

Cicotte was never denied a bonus - he actually got two chances to win his 30th game in 1917, and blew both of them. He and his teammates were actually paid quite well by MLB standards at the time - he and Chick Gandil just got greedy (indeed, Gandil probably kept money meant for the other players and blamed the guys backing them).

Jackson was functionally illiterate, but not stupid - he later became a successful businessman. He did have his wife read and write for him, but he wasn't some Forrest Gump-esque character. He knew exactly what he was doing.

We know Jackson was guilty of participating in the fix and taking the money, because that's what he admitted to doing in sworn testimony to a grand jury. That he later spent the rest of his life lying about it doesn't invalidate his participation in a conspiracy, for which he was justifiably banned. It doesn't matter how well he performed - he was in on the fix, took the money for it, and got banned, which makes him permanently ineligible regardless of his performance, and rightly so.

Okay well be that as it may, how long do these guys get punished? Rose has been punished longer than some murderers are in jail, Jackson and co. obviously longer. The steroid era was what it was, and no one can tell me they don't still have sentiment towards the summer of 1998. These guys still built baseball.

Lastly, I ask this a lot but I will again. How do you put Bud Selig in there as the guy who oversaw the steroid era and not the guys who took it despite the sports media, the owners and the player's union turning a blind eye to it and actually privately cheering for it?